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Does it have any significance when a guy wears jeans as opposed to suit pants? Do you think it represents his frumkeit in any way?
I personally do not like them, because I dont like tight clothes.
But I see plenty of Israelis who seem to wear them even on Shabbos and they seem to be Shomer Shabbos
how about you stop judging people by their external appearance?
BTW, my rav told me that he never wore jeans in his life!
Mik5: Your anecdote seems to disprove your point. I’ve never worn jeans either but that doesn’t make me any better or worse than anyone else. I’ve just always had comfortable pants and never had any reason to buy any other type.
Considering how expensive some jeans are today, I would put them on par with most suit pants. 🙂
Seriously, I try not to judge people by what they are wearing, but sometimes you can’t help it, because what they wear is not appropriate to the time or place, and one hopesd and expects that a frum person will show seichel and sensitivity. Jeans are great on a picnic (just as I believe it is inappropriate to wear suit pants on such an occasion), but they don’t belong on Shabbos at Shul or at a simcha, unless it’s at a BBQ. I don’t think that people who wear jeans, though, are not frum. Neither is every guy who wears suit pants frum, either.
chinesefood: It signifies that he either likes genes, works in a blue collar trade, or both.
its sad that in some community’s it so stigmitized for a kid to wear jeans that if he’ ever decides to wear them he’s suddenly “one of them” and ostracized any person should have the right not to be judged by their chitzonius
chinesefood
Yes the way someone dress “usually” says something about them. Clothing is a uniform and people dress in a way that they feel represents who they are or what they believe in or to project a certain “image” to the world.
Yes there are exceptions but as a rule how someone dresses says a lot about them. Additionally how they wear the clothing, like shirt tucked out…
You really can tell a lot about someone by how they dress but again remember there will be rare exceptions.
WIY: Wow. Please, enlighten all of us, what does having a shirt tucked out say about a person? I certainly can’t tell what type of person someone is based on what they wear. Kol Hakavod to you if you can.
My great great great grandfather fought for the confederacy in the Civil War. He had a guy in his company who thought just like you guys.
He thought it was stupid that grey meant confederacy. After all, what really counts is which side you are fighting for, not what color your jacket is. So he decided one day to wear blue (he pulled it off a dead union soldier).
He was shot by his own side within 1 minute of leaving his tent.
No one should be judgemental about a guy wearing one earing, sleeveless shirt, ,shorts, and tattooed. Don’t judge a book by its cover. He is just as good as a guy with a long rekel, white shirt and hat and tie.
i never knew jeans were “goyish” werent they invented by a jew because they are tougher then dress pants so they last longer if your involved in physical labor.
I was reading a book by Rabbi Berel Wein.
He tells the following story
He was in Jerusalem and was wearing sweats and jogging. While jogging he ran into Rav Sholmo Aueberbach.
He was embarrased that Rav Shlomo should see him this way, but before he could say anything, Rav Shlomo said, NU, your health is important too
It can be disheartening to see so many people focus on the externals (shirt colors, pants/jeans, beard/no beard, hat) and almost forget about the true essence of a person (middos, interpersonal relationships, honesty in business, etc….)
Milk5:
Even though I think that jeans doesn’t really affect the kind of person someone is, it still does somewhat reflect who you are. If a Rav did ever wear jeans in his life, then he shouldn’t be a Rav!
There’s nothing inherently wrong with wearing jeans. Its not appropriate for some occasions just as slippers aren’t always the reccomended dress code.
Its can say something about the person wearing them. Let me portray. An electrician wearing jeans isn’t the same thing as a 18 kid in high school wearing jeans. The electrician is wearing the “rugged pants with pockets for his tools that’s actually makes work easier than other pants” whereas the Hs kid is trying to say “hey I’m different than where I come from” (talking about a yeshiva Hs kid) and I’m letting u all know. Its a status that he’s taking on and yes it does not come along with shteiging away and shmiras einayim.
There are definately exceptions to this rule and, older people wearing jeans isn’t making a statement like a teenager and young 20’s guy.
Its all about assosiation. Who do u assosiate urself with.
NANA: That’s ridiculous. Jeans determine someone’s abilities to be a Rav?
Nisht Ahe Nisht Aher
“If a Rav did ever wear jeans in his life, then he shouldn’t be a Rav!”
People change, people do Teshuvah, there are many Rabbanim who are BT’s. Im sure back in the day they wore jeans.
Nisht Ahe Nisht Aher
Member
Milk5:
Even though I think that jeans doesn’t really affect the kind of person someone is, it still does somewhat reflect who you are. If a Rav did ever wear jeans in his life, then he shouldn’t be a Rav!
R. Nosson Tzvi Finkel not only wore jeans, he wore shorts on the basketball court, when he played for the coed high school he attended.
If a Rav did ever wear jeans in his life, then he shouldn’t be a Rav! “
That statement is just plain hyperbole. Do you really believe that?????? As to the “defense” that people do teshuvah – HUH???? One must do teshuvah because he wore JEANS???? Please!!!!
Well, there are certain aveiros you can never do teshuva for.
Nisht Ahen Nisht Aher, and I think some Chassidims’ views are soooo offf!
We may not like the fact that wearing jeans is considered not the frummest thing to do. But that is the way it is. And everybody knows that. So when someone does choose to wear jeans, they are aware of the statement they are making. And they are choosing to give off a certain vibe. It may be irrational but it is reality.
Truthsharer, is wearing jeans one of them?!?
What aveira is there by wearing jeans? Please enlighten me.
For the apparel oft proclaims the man
this is a quote from hamlet! even the people from centuries ago recognize this fact! That clothing or the outside proclaims and predicts what is going on inside!! Don’t be fools and believe otherwise!
Really, paskening from Hamlet? Now that’s fantastic. Honestly, I think it might be the other way around. Lots of criminals hide behind the white shirts, etc…
wearing jeans is only negative because wearing jeans is negative. In Yehsivish communities, wearing jeans is offensive, so wearing jeans is rebellious, so wearing jeans is probably significant of BAD. in modern communities, its not, so its not. Now ur left with the prob of when a yeshivish person sees a modern person or vice versa. then u get into the argument about which community is actuality better. and thts nvr going to b solved. Modern guy going to yeshivish event- understands yeshivism so he’ll wear suit pants. yeshivish guy going to modern event- cant be less frum, he has to be proud of his frumness so he’ll also wear sit pants . :/
I have never given in to conformity of clothing, but at the same time I have no tolerance for non-conformists. Everything you do and say will categorize you and will bring assumptions about you and there is NOTHING wrong with that. The “wrong” is when you make OTHER, related assumptions.
If you see me walk around without socks you can assume I associate with a certain group, but you also need to assume that I MAY NOT associate with them. If I see a man without a Keepah and I decide not to be judgemental so I speak in yeshivish talk to him, is that okay? If I see someone in more modern clothes I can’t make judgements about his Torah knowledge or Shabbos observance but I will assume certain things about his social circle unless and until he indicates otherwise.
These are not judgements, they are reference points. Don’t jump on people for finding a reference point unless they give the impression they have abused it with inappropriate assumptions.
I receive food from peoples simchas and redistribute it. If a person comes to me in pants and no hair covering, I may check into their kashrus observance, but I will not assume it is problematic, nor will I assume they are not frum. If a yeshivish person drops off food I may not check into their kashrus observance, but I may also not chose them for advice on ethics or emuna. Everyone is made up of lots of pieces and each piece stands in its own merit.
<pause for breath>
My reply was in response to the claim that once a person wears jeans, that person is no longer fit to be a rav. Presumably, that person believes that wearing jeans is one of those aveiros that you can’t do teshuva for.
There is absolutely no issur of wearing jeans if one can quote a source who says that is I will be surprised. I do believe that if one lives in a community where people all dress one way it is not the best thing to dress differently on purpose. People think the best way to dress is white shirt black pants,it is if you are part of place that does that ,but if one is not in that environment than wearing regular clothes is fine.
Cinderella I could not have said it better than you. Lets be honest your clothes dont mean anything (obviously within reason) your external look is just that your external look, others should NOT jump to conclusions whatsoever. Why do we feel the need at all to catergorize someone in any regard, however we are humans this is what we do. Who said jeans are bad, who said a white shirt is good? Sometimes are daily activities will in a way force us to wear certain things. For example a worker in whatever field might want to wear jeanes, and someone learning in kollel will wear suit pants. We should first get to know them then make the judgment calls. In summary, certain actions are going to say a lot about you, but some do although they shouldnt, get to know the person its the smarter thing and if not who cares what he “is” to even bother classifying him, WORRY ABOUT YOURSELF, thats what my mother always told me. It would be foolish to say that jeanes show the same kavod as dressier pants, they dont, and sometimes we should fit that in, but lets do that with ourselves not others. Jeanes are very comfortable pants and really there is nothing wrong with them.
Jeans were originally made for the lower working class people because they were more durable than clothes made from other materials. If a person chooses to wear jeans, no matter how dressy, then he chooses to identify with the working class type of people. That is the reality and there is no need to do teshuva because no one claims that it is an aveira to wear them, just face the facts that this is how people identify him/her.
“the way someone dress “usually” says something about them.”
Likewise, how you perceive someone’s dress says something about you.
When I was younger, in yeshiva, one Friday after class I was going to play ball, wearing shorts and a t-shirt. While walking up the block, I saw the wife of a big Rav in the community walking with her kids who she’d just picked up from school. She stopped me, and said to me, “I assume you’re going to play ball now?” I replied in the affirmative. She said, “My husband would be so happy if he saw you! He laments that some guys seem to think it’s bittul Torah to go play ball. Exercise is extremely important, and all bachurim should be doing it!”
A few weeks after that, the yeshiva made a rule that you can’t wear shorts while playing ball. Apparently the menahel felt a frum boy shouldn’t wear shorts. A Rebbe who used to play basketball with us sometimes spoke to the menahel about it. The rule was rescinded.
Why is it that all the conterversal threads get started by new members? Hmmmmm…
Agittayid
Throughout the years Orthodox Jews have always had a uniform. The chassidim have theirs and the litvish have theirs. In America as well the Yeshivish or people who want to be associated with them always dressed a certain way and Yeshivas have a strict dress code. Same for Chassidim. When someone comes from a Yeshivish or Chassidish family and he is wearing jeans it certainly says something about the person.
Yes in MO circles jeans are more accepted but even there those that are strongly tied to a more Torah way of life generally don’t wear jeans.
A person dresses how they dress for a reason. Its a representation of what they do, a group they are part of or their belief system. If you are a police officer don’t go around wearing a UPS uniform. And if you are a police officer and yet choose to wear a UPS uniform don’t expect people to assume that you are a police officer going to a purim party if its not Purim.
Agittayid, it says that the perciever is a realist.
im surprised that no one made the point im about to make yet.
the answer is it depends on why the person is wearing jeans. if the person, fully cognizant of our communities standards of dress, decides to start wearing jeans in direct contradiction of that standard then yes, it indicates a problem.
if the person starts wearing jeans because he legitimately finds them more comfortable than perhaps its “mumar l’teavon” or perhaps its not mumar at all and he just likes being comfortable. for example, i stopped wearing a hat during the week about a year after my bar mitzvah because it was very uncomfortable for me and no other reason. i didnt feel any sort of rebellion in it and it was no indication of my frumkeit.
if a guy starts wearing jeans because his job has no place for conservative elegance then there’s nothing to talk about. even if his job doesnt involve manual labour, but it doesnt necessarily call for a dress shirt and slacks then i dont see a problem. it also depends on the age of this hypothetical fellow. judging a person based on the fabric from which his pants are made is risky business and should be done strictly on a case by case basis.
How do I misspell jeans so badly that it gets autocorrected to “genes”?!
What you wear definitely affects a person. For better or for worse. For e.g., when someone is dressed up for a nice occasion, they wouldnt do certain things, such as gardening or play sports. Same with this, when someone is dressed like a yeshivish person, they wont do certain things, and the opposite as well. Even in the Israeli army, they have a rule that even when they are off duty for the day, they must still wear their uniform, as it keeps a person up on a certain standard. In addition, “Acharei Hapiulos Nimshachim Halivavos”; what you do externally affects you internally as well. So go ahead and wear jeans if you do so desire, but know that it definitely will be affecting you whether you like it or realize it or not!
zahavasdad….my husband and sons wear jeans and none are tight. same for my brother and nephews.
perhaps you can check out a pair of the ”non tight” ones and you might like them. 🙂
Macherish: Unfortunately, you’re wrong. Yeshiva guys will do anything and everything in their black and white “uniforms”. Chassidim will do things in their “uniforms”. I’ve heard from people about some of the places they’ve seen chassidim in their full levush. I’ve seen them myself in some places I didn’t think they’d go – and I definitely saw them doing things I never thought they’d do!
Presumably, that person believes that wearing jeans is one of those aveiros that you can’t do teshuva for.”
MORE to the point, that person believes that wearing jeans is an aveira for which one MUST do teshuvah.
Well, there are certain aveiros you can never do teshuva for. “
Yes, they are called yeihareig v’al ya’avor.
I agree with real-brisker. Does no one else smell a troll? (or just sesame chicken in brown sauce)…
ItcheSrulik: jenes. You should see the options that come up when I type “ItcheSrulik”! One is itchiness, one is britches, one is Lubavitcher, and one is unprintable!
Even in the Israeli army, they have a rule that even when they are off duty for the day, they must still wear their uniform . . .
Maybe if you are off duty but still on the base. Certainly not when the person is home or out and about.
DY – That is “Rule #1” to catch a Troll-ish thread. “New Members”
“If you are a police officer don’t go around wearing a UPS uniform.”
Yet, police officers and UPS drivers might wear jeans when not engaged in policing or delivering packages.
Personally, I find my jeans great for when I am painting the living room, mowing the lawn (if one can call my patch of grass a lawn) or changing the oil in the car (ok, I admit, I have no idea how to do that, but if I did, I would wear jeans when doing so), wouldn’t want to ruin any other pants in the closet.
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