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Girls who do not wear jean/denim skirts for tznius reasons are definitely in the ranks of those who understand tznius in the spirit of the law, and it is an admirable sensitivity.
I have formal education in Fashion Marketing, and would just like to let you know that in the Fashion industry the “jean/denim” material is used to connote a certain theme which is against Torah and Halacha and the core of our Jewish value system.
So whether or not you personally associate jean/denim with improper shall we say taavos, the material has been produced and mass marketed for years with those intentions (ask anyone in the fashion workforce, they make no secret of this).
Not wearing jean/denim skirts is not a crazy unnecessary chumrah, that is practiced by those who are needlessly “restricting” themselves. It is a reflection of a true understanding of tznius as not only a list of rules, but as a defining factor in the life of a Jewish woman.
A woman wearing a long jean skirt communicates that she believes in a) traditional modesty, b) that G-d is involved in the destiny of the Jewish people and C) the unity of the Jewish people.
Josh,
Maybe read. Like live and learn type of thing.
KKH, the sicko mindset of the fashion industry is not relevant. With every single item of clothing they design for women, their intentions are less than pure.
I can take a skirt that was intended by the fashion industry to show more leg than frum Jews find appropriate, add a piece of fabric to the bottom, and now it is perfectly fine for any rebbetzin to wear. Would you say frum women can’t wear it because it was originally manufactured to look alluring?
Women fix immodest clothing all the time to make it OK to wear. Take a short-sleeved shirt, wear it with an appropriate shell & now it’s fine. It was designed to send a certain message, but it’s not being worn that way.
My non-frum friend was looking at summer-time pictures of my family taken in Orlando. My daughters were wearing floor-length denim skirts. My friend did not find this look to be alluring in the least. She was impressed by the modesty of Jewish girls, who will wear long skirts even in hot weather.
“were invented for farmers”
If you were awake last Shabbos during the reading of the Torah, then you would not look down on farming.
To Kshmo Kein Hu: Tight jean pants and long jean skirts are worlds apart.
Shrek,
“I can take a skirt that was intended by the fashion industry to show more leg than frum Jews find appropriate, add a piece of fabric to the bottom, and now it is perfectly fine for any rebbetzin to wear.”
It is obviously not the same skirt anymore with the added piece, and if the fashion designer would have made the skirt 6 inches longer originally, the intentions would have been different.
Well, by that logic if I took a Jean skirt and attached a piece of satin to cover the entire thing so that you could not see the denim, then I presume that would be ok. Of course the Fashion Industry’s mindset is relevant. Duh.
If you’re the type of girl whose husband (or, if unmarried, father) goes aroud in jeans, you probably will wear wear jeans. If you’re the type of girl who doesn’t appreciate your husband in jeans, you wont wear jeans.
Heels?
Gosh, Sac… there is more Kensington in you than I thought!
Canine
You keep mentioning how RABBONIM would not to X Y & Z, the same RABBONIM have clearly come out against the internet so all your arguments are now invalid (and annoying).
No one goes golfing in jeans. Not Goldman Sachs execs and not farmers, its not how the game is played… just sayin.
President Bush and Prince William were photographed many times in jeans. If you need an example of ‘malchus’ that wear jeans, there you go.
Re: Heels & Toes
Thats how I was taught the halacha.
I can’t believe how much space is being wasted debating this topic. If the style of the skirt is modest, then what type of fabric it is made from, matters not. What is more important is the type of person that you are and how you are living your life. What is in your heart and in your head is far more important than what fabric your skirt is made of. If you are living a “good” lifestyle – observing Shabbat, donating Tzedakah to very best of your ability and continually learning Torah and related topics, Hashem does not care that you do these things while wearing denim.
you have to understand that Hashem gave us a body of Laws, of infinite depth and great complexity for us to live by and discuss and debate and come to internalize its Truth thereby.
you cant just be a “Jew in my heart” and do what feels good and nice and friendly, and say this or that is what Hashem wants from me.
Hashem is our Father but he is also our King.
From what I’ve seen these denim long skirts are almost exclusivly Jewish attire. I haven’t seen obviously non Jewish women wearing them. A lot of respectable middle aged and older frum women wear them in Brooklyn.
Now those tight flashy clothes that I see in Boro Park, that’s where the problem is.
whether or not jean skirts should be worn, or by whom is certainly something to discuss.
but it is not an issue of Tznius.
i personally dont see a problem with them
the issue of jeanskits vs jeans in men are very different. long jean skirts are clearly recognized as a typical frum female Jewish mode of dress. the goyim in general do not wear them
IMHO jeans in the USA are a very strong (casual) cultural symbol. As a result, some people feel, to distance themselves from being influenced by the prevailing culture, it is better not to wear jeans.
The argument that jeans are goyish is just silly, since Levis Strauss ( founder of Levis jeans) was a Jew…
that being said, anything with the name of one of the tribes of Israel on it (Levis)cant’s be bad…. 🙂
Levi Strauss was just as Jewish as Bernie Madoff.
Levi Strauss was just as Jewish as Bernie Madoff.
Which is almost certainly more Jewish than whoever invented the streimel. 🙂 Or the necktie, with which no one seems to have any problem.
The Wolf
…which is just as Jewish as you.
We aren’t debating religious levels, nor are we debating where jeans originated.
nor are we debating where jeans originated.
More than one folk (charliehall and mikehall) are arguing in favor of jeans because a (frei) Jew started the company.
More than one folk (charliehall and mikehall) are arguing in favor of jeans because a (frei) Jew started the company.
… which is really irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Who else argues for (or against) something should not be a determinant as to whether that thing is good or bad.
The Wolf
could be that charlie and mike are related and now a tag team in here.
the Hall Brothers.
pacman
they arent arguing in favor of jeans “because” a jew invented them, mikehall was debunking the people who are claiming they are bad because they are goyish.
Saying a frei Jew invented them, does not debunk there being goyish. Frei Jews don’t practice or act Jewish in their lives.
dont understand that “logic”
so if i dont wear a cross because its goyish, that would be debunked if it was made by a Jew?
If you’re the type of girl whose husband (or, if unmarried, father) goes aroud in jeans, you probably will wear wear jeans. If you’re the type of girl who doesn’t appreciate your husband in jeans, you wont wear jeans.
I, along with many of my friends, wear jean skirts while our fathers, brothers, and husbands don’t wear jeans.
dunno: Would it bother you if your husband regularly wore jeans? If so, why do you wear them?
my husband wears a black suit, white shirt every day… I wear a long jeans skirt almost every day. go figure.
I’m just sayin’….
yes, makes sense
as i said above the social significance of jean skirts is very different from jean pants in men.
“Levi Strauss was just as Jewish as Bernie Madoff”
last time I checked, if your Mom is a Jew, than so are you…
“More than one folk (charliehall and mikehall) are arguing in favour of jeans because a (frei) Jew started the company”.
I’m in favour of dress pants, shoes, gloves, and even Borsalino hats…all of which as far as I know were created and developed by goyim…
i would not wear jeans. i wear only clothes that identify me clearly as a religious Jew, and that i feel chashuv in, before the Ribbono Shel Olam.
my wife wears long jean skirts.
Rav Yisrael Gans replied when asked if young girls could wear denim skirts, ‘that denim skirts are permitted, but they are not befitting for a bais Melech to wear.’
Mod 80
you can’t compare the two. a cross is a clear, indisputable symbol of avodah zara. Jeans were originally created for functional purposes, and in modern times, can sometimes be designed to be pritzusdik and untznius.
Wigs can be used/designed for pritzus too.
Someone else already mentioned women’s tops that are made tznius by adding shells or whatever. Long jean skirts that themselves were not intended for pritzus should be less controversial.
Pacman
Levi Strauss invented jeans as a direct result of his being non-observant? It came about as a product of secular ideals? No. Why are they goyish? Like someone else pointed out, what many consider frum garb these days was designed by goyim and were adapted from secular culture.
The burden of proof certainly lies on those who declare denim untznius.
If you’re the type of girl whose husband (or, if unmarried, father) goes aroud in jeans, you probably will wear wear jeans. If you’re the type of girl who doesn’t appreciate your husband in jeans, you wont wear jeans.
That is not remotely true.
Mod 80,
as you said, “clothes you feel chashuv in” — that is a personal feeling. Many would argue that a yamalka is designed to distinguish frum Jews (and tzitzet if you wear them out), and that sets the standard.
“i would not wear jeans. i wear only clothes that identify me clearly as a religious Jew”
I thought the kippa and Tzizus (sorry for the spelling)did that for me, I guess I was wrong….
Kshmo: You make full length jean skirts for women?
With what you are talking about in mind?
Really? I don’t believe you. You are referring to tight jean pants, and perhaps to denim miniskirts.
Would it bother you if your husband regularly wore jeans? If so, why do you wear them?
It would bother her much more if he wore a skirt, and it would bother him if she wore a yarmulke or tzitzis.
There is zero correlation between men and women wearing denim.
“That is not remotely true.”
Why not popa?
yid i didnt compare the two, of course they are not comparable.
i was illustrating the foolishness of the idea that something was Jewish because it was made by a Jew, deliberately choosing a clearly ludicrous case. if you carefully read and think about what i wrote it will become clearer im sure.
As far as I understand though, we can only establish something as “not goyish” as opposed to “Jewish”. True, being made by a Jew does not make something inherently “Jewish”, but it does remove it from –Necessarily– being goyish.
Like I was saying to pacman, there isn’t anything making jeans “goyish” any more than commonly accepted articles of clothing such as wigs, certain tops, and as others pointed out borsalinos, the suit, and ties. etc.
nowadays the specific religious symbols of the kipah and tzitzis are seen by many in this politically correct, open, religiously tolerant society as just another ethnic badge like the turban and cross. you have your religious symbol and i have mine, it doesnt mean much today to onlookers. it would have said a great deal however 50 years ago, when it took courage to wear these symbols openly, but at that time there were no Jews who wanted both to be assimilated and still be religious. the two things were mutually exclusive, unlike today where those that wish to assimilate can still maintain their religious identity as well.
canine:
It happens to be the case. There is no correlation between the husband not wearing jean pants and the wife not wearing jean skirts.
The reason is that there are reasons for men to not wear jeans, but there is no reason for women not to, and only women who are all into feminism don’t wear them. (or girls who have been told by the teachers who are into feminism that it is assur.)
And if you don’t believe me that there is feminism going on in these joints, just ask yourself why your daughter came home from seminary davening maariv and thinking she has a chiyuv to learn torah)
Mod 80,
actually I’m pretty sure you didn’t get me this time. Exactly, a cross, if originally designed by a Jew, would not be inherently goyish. Now that is represents avodah zara, and has no other connotations, it is incontrovertibly goyish.
I know of no girls thinking they have any chiyuv to learn Torah, or even that davening maariv is mandatory for them. They do know not to wear jeans.
Popa,
I don’t actually make any of them..not really sure what you mean by that…
And for all those of you getting caught up on the difference between long jean skirts and short ones and pants.. let me clarify:
Short jean skirts may pose an issue of sensitivity in tznius, jean pants make a statement (just the way it is so you choose if you want to be making it or not) and long jean skirts are just nerdy.
But fashion sense aside, I believe we were discussing the jean material in general hence my original post.
i see yid, now i get you
“and long jean skirts are just nerdy”
I doubted you working in the fashion industry in your first post, now I am sure of it.
i think they just give off a trashy, cheap, american look and ppl try to stay away from that…. its not very classy
canine
adorable:
Trashy? Come now. Really? When you see someone wearing a full length denim skirt you think trashy?
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