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I’ve noticed oo uses a lot of Rav zadok
hakohen and izhbitza to defend their ideas. Are there any seforim to see if what they’re saying is true? I find it hard to believe an entire hassidus is based on rewriting halacha
Part of the problem with hassidus,which was a prime cause for opposition was it’s head in the clouds amorphous, nebulousness that could be used to support almost anything at all
( shabtai Tzvi,zionism , socialism,etc.)
The Satmar Rav profoundly understood that
every populist movement since,even irreligious ones could and often would conceivably claim a commonality and kindred spirit with the early chassidim
and the combustion needed to somehow be reigned in
It is with reason and sagacity
that the Satmar Rav wrote in a letter” ???? ???? ???????
Question please: Is it just me, or is the first sentence of that last post lashon hara?
Thank you
LB- it’s a known fact that many or most or all Gedolim thought there were some problems with Chassidus at the beginning, although today it is accepted. I could be wrong, but my impression was that It is Time for Truth was not trying to attack Chassidus. The proof is that the source of his comments is the Satmar Rebbe. My impression was that he was just pointing out that there are dangers if it is misused.
But, it is possible that I am judging the post too favorably, and the first sentence could have been phrased better. I’m not sure.
Izhbitza is Radzin. And everything I know about Radzin (at least how it’s practiced today) has nothing to do with Open Orthodoxy.
K-cup,
As a matter of fact, according to Rav Kook (Ein Ayah on masechet Shabbat 2:8) every movement that rises up has some part in Truth. However, there is also much falsehood. The task of chachamim in every generation is to show how some current movement has a Torah source but after it falls we need not refer to it any more.
As for Chassidut, it started as a populist rebellion against the learned elites and therefore was very problematic. One leader said horrible things about talmidei chachamim and another announced during Yom Kippur that he had seen through ruach hakodesh that the gates of Heaven were closed and there was no longer a reason to fast. He then had something to eat. The Baal HaTanya did a great deal to bring it back into the fold.Later the rebbes of Gur, the Sochochover and others made it a halachic movement.
As for reinterpretation of Halacha and hashkafa, what about the current notions about full-time life-long learning for all men, women supporting families while their husbands wave their fat fingers and rabbanim having the answers to all questions, including purely secular matters (even though it is, of course, absolutely forbidden to study secular subjects).
historical development of halacha”
And what was Wissenschaft des judentums
And of course, the Conservative Movement
They’re arguably even more radical
Avi K, I feel obligated to protest your wholesale dismissal of an entire segment of K’lal Yisrael.
Fortunately for me, you made it easy – your derisive mode of expression does more to discredit your opinion than anything I could write.
I would just note that I believe your revision of history is a particularly artful piece of propaganda. As far as I know, Chassidism did not start as “a populist rebellion against the learned elites.” Can you prove this? Which “leader” and publicly desecrated Yom Kippur?
Which “leader” said horrible things about Talmidei Chachamim? (What did he say? Did he insinuate that they are narcissistic, greedy, lazy and hypocritical? Are those horrible things to say?)
My understanding is that Chassidus began with the Ba’al Shem Tov and his Talmidim, all of whom were themselves great Talmidei Chachamim, and was intended to provide an avenue for the ignorant masses to serve Hashem.
AviK “the notion of full time learning etc” is not that entrenched in Chassidus. While the batei medrash are full, many many chassidim work. This true in EY also given the scarcity of money, and despite the failure of the litvish to understand that one can hold down a job and still be betzelem eloki.
And so the Motzi Shem Ra continues. The Litvish, of which I am a proud member, understand no less than the Chassidish or the Sefardim that “one can hold down a job and still be betzelem eloki (sic).”
Those who are so close-minded that they can not tolerate different points of view, those who feel so trapped by their own shortcomings that their only response is to belittle others, fail to see that the vast majority of “the Litvish” (by which they refer really only to “the Yeshivish”) actually are quite successful in all professions and areas of business.
Try tolerance, people. It feels good.
I second that last statement!
Avi k,
“every movement that rises up has some part in Truth. “
Islam ,New Ageism
How far would that go?
(check my comment re:Homnick)
Catch,
1. I was referring to current practices. In Israel only 45% of Chareidi men work and most of those are in low-paying “religious” jobs. Some leaders have issued bans against secular education, even in Chareidi settings, which effectively ban professional training. In America the situation is different although among some Chassidim there is great opposition even to learning and using English.
2. I do not remember the name of the person who did that but various problematic practices were recorded in the book “??? ??????” which caused the Gra to issue the cherem.
3. I agree that tolerance is a good midda. What about tolerance for MO and RZ?
Avi K, I strongly protest your last paragraph above. It is hateful and very offensive.
Up to that point, though you did make a good point. When Chasidus started off, there was huge opposition among Rabbonim. There was the famous cherem. I don’t know about that particular story, though it is vaguely familiar. I would recommend the Artscroll biography on the Vilna Gaon which delves into that painful period for klal yisroel.
1. I was referring to current practices. In Israel only 45% of Chareidi men work and most of those are in low-paying “religious” jobs. Some leaders have issued bans against secular education, even in Chareidi settings, which effectively ban professional training. In America the situation is different although among some Chassidim there is great opposition even to learning and using English.
In all fairness, that is in reaction to the draft. In other countries until very recently, everyone worked. Even recently (as far as I can tell), Ruba D’Ruba get some sort of job within 10-15 years after being married.
Avi K,
1. Litvish/Yeshivish and Chassidish people are much more tolerant than they are given credit for. There seems to be an assumption among many MO that those to the right of them are intolerant and close-minded, which is completely untrue. Many MO people have appropriated the title of “Tolerant and Open-minded” for themselves, even as they refuse to perceive the reality of how other people act.
Davening at a certain self-described MO Shul once, I was given the honor of Pesicha on a Monday morning. The Gabbai told me, “the cord on the left opens the curtain, and the cord on the right closes it. People on the left are open-minded, and people on the right are close-minded.” I responded that this is the most close-minded thing I’ve ever heard.
I have chavrusas, friends and close relatives who are MO, and some who are RZ. We have excellent relationships. This is because we can tolerate differences. Knowing that we all have strong convictions in the ?”? ??????, we accept happily that we see things differently.
2. I never heard of the Sefer ??? ??????, let alone that it was the catalyst for the ???. I did not read the entire ???, but it seems to be devoted to exposing three individuals who were supporters of Shabbetai Zvi. The Sefer was published in ???, when the Ba’al Shem Tov was only 10 years old.
10 to 15 years is along time, especially when compared to historically marrying and working at 17.
Historically you got married at 17, and half of your children died, as well as many wives. It is a different world.
Catch, I second that post.
If people need evidence that the MO is doing more to promulgate closed-mindedness, just look at this very thread.
Also, when people read Litvish accounts of early Chassidim, or Chassidish accounts of the Gra and his talmidim, they must take it with a grain of salt. The Yom Kippur incident described in this thread likely never actually took place.
Even in today’s Lakewood, the overwhelming majority are no longer learning full time before their tenth anniversary.
You know Avi-K, I could totally have a discussion with you.
But then my eyes see this phrase–
“…husbands wave their fat fingers…”
and I see where you’re coming from.
And I realize that even if I catch my breath and try having a conversation with you, you’ll find someone like me totally beneath your lofty level of discussion and not worthy of your valuable attention.
(For the record I’ll add that my fingers are thin; my husband has nice hands though he does in fact tend to gesticulate.)
Just feel a need to say that I had hoped to edit a lot of things from that post before approving
Catch, you are correct but that is not the spirit of some in the CR. BTW, the reason why the majority in Lakewood are no longer learning full-time is that budget cuts forced the yeshivots to give exams and cutoff those who were not up to pa. This si what I meant (@Golfer) but “waving their fat fingers”. Full-time life-long learning should be only for a small elite. They should also be paid at least as much as research fellows and could be if the butterflies (as they are called in Israel) are put to work.
“BTW, the reason why the majority in Lakewood are no longer learning full-time is that budget cuts forced the yeshivots to give exams and cutoff those who were not up to pa.”
I don’t see how that could be the reason, since BMG pays very little in the first place. The Kollel stipend is not what people are living on. I think most people who leave full-time learning do so either because they are not cut out to learn full-time forever or because once they have a certain number of kids, they can no longer afford to live on the wife’s salary.
“Full-time life-long learning should be only for a small elite.”
I don’t think that’s what the Gedolim and Roshei Yeshiva say. Of course, that also depends how you define “full-time life-long learning”. From one of your previous posts, my impression was that you were including those who work in Klei Kodesh. In that case, it is definitely not true.
If you literally mean full-time life-long learning (and are not including those who work in klei kodesh), it is POSSIBLE that you may be right (I don’t know enough to have an opinion on the matter – that is a question for the Roshei Yeshiva), but in that case, in EY as well, most people don’t learn full-time forever either.
Also, as GAW pointed out, there can be other considerations as well. He mentioned the army issue in EY, but there are other issues to take into account as well.
One important issue is the fact that it used to be possible for someone to work for 3 hours a day and to learn for 9 hours a day (as the Rambam talks about) but today that is rarely an option (especially in the US). Nowadays, if someone works, it often (and I think usually) means that they have very little time to learn. Even if someone feels that he is not cut out for full-time learning, he still has to weigh that against the fact that leaving full-time learning may mean having barely any time to learn.
Additionally, some people get too caught up in this idea that “not everyone is cut out to learn full-time” and assume too quickly that they are not cut out to learn full-time. There are many people who thought they were not the type to learn full-time but they persisted and discovered that they were.
There are people who are meant to learn full-time and people who are not. I don’t know how many or who is meant to do which. (The only ones who can really know that are the people themselves and their Roshei Yeshiva). But, I do know it is very presumptuous to say that it is a problem that people are learning full-time. Boruch Hashem, it’s an amazing thing that so many people are learning, they are holding up the world for us, and we should be very thankful for them for the zchusim they are providing us with. And we should certainly not be judging them negatively and assuming they are not meant to be learning.
Avi K:
You said, “Full-time life-long learning should be only for a small elite.”
*should*?
That is your opinion.
Do you also accept the idea that other people could have a different opinion?
“waving their fat fingers” is a derogatory way of speaking/writing (derogatory both to the people you intend to denigrate, and to people who actually happen to have fat fingers, no matter what they do).
If you mean to say that you have an issue with people who are pretending to be in full time learning but are not learning seriously, then say that. That is NOT what you said.
“Try tolerance, people. It feels good.”
“I second that last statement! “
Would anyone bother to read YWN ?For recipes?
you would be out of a job:)
Regarding early Chassidism ,Avi K is on target
My earlier comment, with references included was censored out
You said, “Full-time life-long learning should be only for a small elite.”
*should*?
That is your opinion.
before the advent of the modern welfare state, this is what was done. In those days if you did not work, you starved. There were no government benefits to help you
K-Cup, What do you mean “Avi k made a nasty comment, but it was not to anyone in particular”?
No, not anyone in particular. But to an entire segment of the Jewish population! And a segment who, I would think, is the target audience of this very forum.
And then, just to confirm his intolerance and prejudice, he uses the term “butterflies” and justifies it by saying “(as they are called in Israel)”!!
Avi K, why are you here at all?!
Mods, why is this allowed?
Not familiar with the term, didn’t expect anything of that sort from him and thirdly, if you object to his presence (rightfully or not), there should be objection to many other’s as well
According to the wiki page on Rav Tzadok he says something about the historical development of halacha (though it would have nothing to do with making halacha more liberal.) Maybe they’re just extrapolating from that to think that they can therefore “advance” halacha as they see fit?
I don’t know of any chassidus that permits rewriting halacha (aside from the issue of davening times, but I think that was a matter of custom or practice rather than psak). I also think most OO writers do not use chassidus to justify their ideas — maybe it is just one or two authors?
K-cup,
Read Toldos yaakov yoseph for one
“I don’t know of any chassidus that permits rewriting halacha”
The Tzemach Tzedek gave credit to the Misnagdim for that
“Not familiar with the term, didn’t expect anything of that sort from him and thirdly, if you object to his presence (rightfully or not), there should be objection to many other’s as well”
+1. I would like to say in Avi K’s defense, that I do think the comment was atypical for him. I think that he is someone who does try to avoid negative comments about other posters, people, or groups. It is possible that, as he implied, he was coming from a place of being upset about comments others have made about other groups. I am not saying that made the comment okay; I am just being “dan l’kaf zchus” regarding the source since I do think it was atypical, and is not a reflection of what he is about.
JM, they can have whatever opinion they want butthey will have to jsutify it with sources. They will also have to find a terutz for the reality of guys who are going OTD and worse because it is not for them and they do not have an alternative.
Zahavasdad, you should join the remedial reading class. According to Dictionary.com “Should” means “must; ought (used to indicate duty, propriety, or expediency)”.
Geordie, I am here so that you can drink from the fountain of my wisdom. Insulting an entire segment of the Jewish population is a prerequisite for membership in the CR.
“every movement that rises up has some part in Truth. “
Islam ,New Ageism
How far would that go?” (It is Time for Truth)
It is Time for Truth:
“If they tell you there is wisdom amongst the other nations, believe them. If they tell you there is Torah among the nations, don’t believe them.” (Midrash Rabbah, Eichah 17)
K Cup,
see my brief synopsis on OO “halacha”
on the thread Open Orthodoxy
yytz: Rewriting halachah doesn’t always need to be allowing things which were forbidden. It can go the opposite way as well.
Chassidim have instituted things which have now reached into mainstream chareidi life, such as separate seating at weddings, dinners, and other events.
Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld (and others, but I saw his teshuvah) assered mixed seating. It is far from being exclusively a chassidishe thing.
The Sridei Eish Vol 2, 8 rules that by gatherings, even which are not for matters of sanctity, men and women should sit separately so as not to mix.
The Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 149:1 (based on the Bach and Beis Shmuel) rules that “shehasimcho bimoinoi” is not said during the benching of a sheva brochos if men and women are seated in the same room because there is no simcha when the evil inclination is active. This is one of the basis that many contemporary poskim use to rule that there must be a mechitza at weddings and sheva brochos.
WARNING: THIS IS A JOKE. PLEASE DO NOT ATTACK ME
<joke>DaMoshe, Separate seating was instituted by a man who wanted to eat a huge creamy danish or cake or have more fried potatoes etc, and didn’t want his wife to stop him.</joke>
Joseph?
1. I did not see where the Seridei Esh says that. In fact, the Chafetz Chaim rescinded an invitation Rav Meir Shapiro when the latter asked that the CC’s wife not sit at the same table.
2. The Levush (Minhagim 36) defends mixed seating at weddings. Rav Moshe also permits it (Iggerot Moshe OC 1:41).
Rav Moshe’s own children had mixed seating at their weddings.
It’s great that separate seating has become the norm, but let’s not pretend (as we are sometimes wont to do) that the way we do things now is the way things have always been done.
I’m pretty sure there was no potato kugel at Shabbos Marah.
I’m pretty sure there was no potato kugel at Shabbos Marah.
KOFER!
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