it’s dumb to blame trump for not doing anything about covid19

For all you people who will unfortunately vote for joe i ask you 1 question do you like the way America is now? Do you know if Joe gets elected it will only get worst and he said himself that he’s making it worst just like defund the police etc can you imagine America with out police well that’s what will happen so don’t be fooled because that’s what will happen it will not get better just worst. You will regret it after all i can say If joe gets elected I’m outta here.

Here is why ‘the hospitals inflating the numbers’ doesn’t change much.

1. There is no fabricated patients. All the covid deaths or cases in the hospital, refer to actual patients. The question is what was their medical condition. Nobody is questioning their existence.

That already concedes that hospitals that reported large amounts of cases were overwhelmed, or close to that. It does not matter if they were there for infection, anxiety, or mischief. Either way, the hospital would have to deal with it.

2. Hospitals receive the extra funding whenever a coronavirus case is closed. Which would include the patient dying. Or leaving the hospital. It makes no difference how the patient leaves the hospital. Even if a patient fully recovers and leaves on his own feet, the hospital is eligible for the extra 20% reimbursement. [I assume this would be the same for patients that are transferred to a different hospital. It is also a closed case for the first hospital.]

There only seems to be an incentive to inflate total cases, not deaths. But they go together. (If someone had TDS and they listed him as coronavirus, if TDS would turn fatal then that would be a mislabeled coronavirus fatality.)

3. Hospitals only receive money for what they provide. (I do not know if this is only treatment, or is the bedding and so on included.) If the patient is deemed covid positive, they get the same money even for non covid related treatments. (Such as a broken foot.)

Either way, hospitals are dealing with an extraordinary amount of serious respiratory infections. Whether they are 95% or 70& percent coronavirus related, it is the same crisis.

4. The real data problem, is that there is no central way to manage the data. If someone tests positive twenty five times over three months before they finally test negative, how many cases is that counted as? There seems to be very little personal information taken at the time of the test.

While this leads to inflated numbers at the point of data collection, it points to a significant rate of infection. In other countries, they know almost everything about every individual case. Because they have tens of cases, not hundreds or thousands. The U. S. only has such confusion, because of it’s high caseload. Dropping a few thousand cases, does not change anything. We are nowhere near effective containment.

Ultimately, the impact of the pandemic could end up being measured as excess deaths in a two, five, and ten year span.

Dear Syag,

I do not think you understood. 1) The overall data is not put together well. 2) Whatever cases we take off the total amount,it is still a major health crises. 3) There are a lot more people in the hospital than normal. That is a major concern, regardless if it coronavirus or something else.

I’m not sure why changing hospital deaths from coronavirus to, say, typhus is any better.

@quayboardwarrior you didn’t answer my question.

@ProudRepublican
Don’t assume my preferred sources of media information. Nor my political loyalties. I also did not ever mention anything about Biden. You seem to assume quite a lot.

I simply question your undying support of Trump, the man responsible leading the country for 4 years, a country so obviously worse off than it was 4 years ago.

“You can’t white wash 170,000 people dead.”

Every single dead person is a sad thing and a tragedy for their nuclear unit.

However, when the country was shut down (really most of the world) we were told to expect about a 2 percent death rate. Two percent of about 330 million is almost 7 million.

Not so. In the begining it was stated very clearly thst we cannot prevent exposure and deaths, the plan was to slow it down to keep the system from getting overwhelmed and buy time for more knowledge on how to treat it. She is correct.

@SyagLchochma

As you say, flattening the curve was to slow the spread until a cure or vaccine is found. So exposure and deaths are certainly preventable. The flatter the curve, the less deaths by the time a cure or vaccine is found.

But regardless, @interjection’s point doesn’t stand. Because the Trump administration has not done an incredible job of handling COVID and “only” 170,000 are dead rather than 2% of the population. As every single country in the world seem to somehow be fairing better.

Dear Participant,

I have read through your posts on this thread several times. If you can please link or post what Charlie wrote to initiate this topic.

It seems like we agree on most points. Trump is not a doctor. And he is not the destination for medical advice. People should have followed their doctor’s advice, and not the media’s opinions. [There is a problem here that people do not listen to the doctors anyway. As was shown by the measles outbreak.]

I am not sure how much we agree on assessing the pandemic in general. There are two issues. 1) A global health crises. A lot of patients. Overwhelmed hospitals. Lack of protective gear. People to sick to work. Cities being shutdown. Lack of effective medications. Efforts to find a vaccine. Typical stuff that we see every year or so. [On a much smaller scale.]

2) The other major issue is that this was a little known virus, and still is an unknown disease. Odd symptoms. Unclear diagnoses. Lack of known treatments. Nobody could say what the long term side effects are. On this part the Trump Administration did their part. They put forth a lot of funding for research. They eliminated less needed steps to hurry along potential vaccines. They did not interfere with the scientists.

However just dealing with the first part, requires a lot of cooperation. Smaller state governments, are not capable of dealing with all these issues at once. Some states banded together to be more efficient. Our obese Federal Government exists precisely for these major events that the states cannot handle. I think we agree that the states did most of the work. And Trump picked up some of the tab.

The federal response was full of contradictions. The CDC bungled testing. The problems seemed to indicate a lack of leadership. Instinctively, people point to the president. However, the president has more to worry about than just public health. Obama was not the front man on Ebola or H1n1. At some point, it seemed like Pence was supposed to be the front man. I do not know what happened there.

Dear Proud,

Hashem is in charge. As long as you cannot think of an answer.

Proud, be proud of your belief and don’t do anything to help yourself. יכול שהוא יושב בטל ת’ל בכל מעשך אשר תעשה indicating a person should not sit idly by but do what he can. Help yourself and Hashem will help you.

@SyagLechochma
When were we ever actually told 2% of the population would die? Can you point me in the direction of a credible source for that?

Given these comments were made in reference to Trump’s actions, Trump actually claimed until mid-March were that it’s a couple of cases and will all go away soon.
After which, his administration soon adopted the projections of the IHME. Whose models were at the time suggesting a death rate of 60,000.

@ProudRepublican
Why are you so sure another leader would have done a worse job managing the pandemic?

And just because the past was Hashem’s will does not mean those involved should not be held accountable for their actions.

Will Cumo be accountable for his killings?
Trump listened to every governor that asked him for anything he give it to them right away. They said they need more room in hospital he sent the boat they needed equipment they got it. What else should he have done ? It doesn’t mean these dems messed up that doesn’t mean you should blame trump. Why don’t you blame faucci? Faucci didn’t do anything good. He didn’t know anything so I’m not hearing anything trump should’ve done.

Quay- you asked me to source the 2%, i said it wasn’t my statement.

Now you are thinking those two statements are contradictory? The lock down was to flatten the curve so people could come in a few weeks/month apart instead of filling the hallways. These weeks would be valuabke in learning anything we can for the april patient that we didn’t know for the march patient. Such as the extent of the contagion. And in may they knew more about lower vent pressure etc.

Nobody said waiting to come out of lockdown for vaccines or cures (besides you) as that would be 18 months or more. People were expected to pass this around and people were expected to die, but the hope was that they wouldn’t die from ppe shortage or on gurneys in the hallways.

“When were we ever actually told 2% of the population would die? Can you point me in the direction of a credible source for that?”

The Washington Post wrote an article around April titled, “is the coronavirus as deadly as they say” and they wrote that we had previously thought that 2 million would die.

The University of Washington posted an article around the same time titled, “staggering death rate in US among those who show symptoms”, where they stated that 1.2 million would die without drastic measures.

Reuters also had an article around the same time where they stated that 2 million would die without lockdowns.

Originally the government told us 14 days to overcome covid-19. Then they added on a week. Then another. Then indefinitely. Then until July. Then until October 31. Now until 2022.

This paragraph is my OPINION, so read at your own risk. 170,000 is actually over 1 million saved so in that case trump did an amazing job. 6 people died in NY yesterday from covid, which is probably less than the number of people who died in accidents and we are not banning highways. The battle seems to be over and we can completely reopen without threats of us being mass murderers.

Thank you! I have tried to make that point. It falls on deaf ears. And you said it so much better and clearer than I could.

I tried explaining this to a relative who was complaining about people who will pass her too closely on a sidewalk or in a supermarket. I told her that from my personal experiences we took this very very seriously until the mayors said nothing about the protest. I said if it was legitimately a health risk they wouldn’t be allowing it for any reason. Her response was, but it’s a right to protest. I told her that’s a dumb response, if a fireman approaches a burning building and you tell him that you don’t want to move out of the way because you are amidst a protest he’ll tell you to jump in the lake because it’s really a health risk. When something is legitimate there are no exceptions. When you start making exceptions you’ve made it clear that it’s not a legitimate health risk.

Dear n0mesorah, if the stay at home orders worked so why were there so many cases in New York ? Obviously it didn’t work. And it also sounds like your hashem that you will predict that it will come back. It’s not up to you. It’s up to the one above.

Dear Proud,

I did not predict anything. Hashem made your existence in such a way, that you can examine what is around you and come up with an understanding of how it works. Please stop insulting His handiwork.

There was no surge or they did not need to shut down, because majority of people in New York got the virus. So how did that help? And let me tell you something even in the Republican states like Florida that had a surge no they did not shut down again. I was there and everything was opened. So the dems do not know what their doing.

Dear Proud,

A majority of NYC did not got the virus. Maybe a fifth. It takes longer than that to get to ten million people. This is not a purely scientific response. It is a mathematical one.

It helped, that there was no setback when the Northeast reopened.

Miami had a second shut down. As well as many other cities and states.

The second shutdowns were not as harsh as the first. There was a lot more knowledge available in June then in March. This allowed for a more focused battle. (Young people partying.) And there was better testing. People could get tested and go about life. But those states are not really past their second curve yet, so let’s wait a bit to see what it proves. (How fast can they reopen.)

I have no idea what you are talking about with everything being opened. Stadiums, festivals, and concerts, are still being cancelled across the country. Viruses are not political. Are you saying that all viruses vote Republican?

Dear Syag,

I feel like we are basically of the same opinion. Just facing in different directions. You think that if this was a deadly outbreak of say, malaria; things would be just as confusing?

Dear Participant,

Thanks!

Dear Syag,

I get the feeling that you aremore skeptical then I am, if the shut downs worked.

Dr. Atlas wants to create heard immunity which to be effective might kill around 2 million people.