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No, use that $220 to move to a cheaper place and give the money to the school.
SJS:
On your “Jewish women’s website”, there was a discussion regarding husbands changing diapers. It is the same thought process.
And yes, there are some women who are incapable of having a home, should never have gotten married, but did so anyway. They do need the cleaning help. That is not to say they should get a tuition break, though.
So you are telling me to move to a cheaper place where I’ll be able to use the $220 for rent and I won’t need cleaning help and????
220 x 12 = 2640.
2640 / 4000 = 2/3 a lakewood tuition.
Dr. Pepper can check the numbers.
GAW, that website is really entertaining.
Yes, a small portion are incapable. I think most women ARE capable.
All of the sudden you all bacame so flat. As if there aren’t many factors taken in to account when deciding where to live.
And BTW I might need a car when I move, and I am paying tuition here too.
GAW If I use the money for rent, How do I have extra money?
Are you saying that if someone knows that along the road they will need cleaning help, then they shouldn’t get married?
Says who – are you living in BP? There are neighborhoods within walking distance (1 mile is not that far) where rent is even cheaper. Do you value tuition enough to move farther away to a place where you have to walk far to your chosen shul?
I am sure that you wouldn’t move to Kiryas Yoel if that will help you pay tuition
BP is surrounded by communities that are there to stay, which doesn’t help out the rent problem.
As if there aren’t many factors taken in to account when deciding where to live.
Of course there are. But where does paying for Talmud Torah rank?
GAW If I use the money for rent, How do I have extra money?
If you stay where you are yes. But if you move to Lakewood….
Which is a big reason why Lakewood is growing and other communities are shrinking.
Are you saying that if someone knows that along the road they will need cleaning help, and can’t afford it, and will need to take Tzedaka to do so, then they shouldn’t get married?
How about not needing the Tzedaka by at least attempting to earn enough (or marry someone who can) to pay for the cleaning help?
“As if there aren’t many factors taken in to account when deciding where to live.
Of course there are. But where does paying for Talmud Torah rank?”
And what about just in general being able to afford the area. If you are living in a one bedroom with 5 people, clearly you can’t afford the neighborhood.
And what about just in general being able to afford the area. If you are living in a one bedroom with 5 people, clearly you can’t afford the neighborhood.
Disagree. There is nothing wrong with living poor, as long as you don’t attempt to “act rich” or take from others because of it, and your children don’t suffer because of it (granted that is difficult).
In the shtetel, we were all poor and lived in small homes much worse then someone in BP lives now.
SJSinNYC-
“GAW, that website is really entertaining. “
If it’s the same one that my wife got addicted to I have to agree with you on that. From what I hear their moderators aren’t as good as ours so maybe that’s what makes it so entertaining 🙂
Do you go by the same SN over there? I’ll ask my wife to look out for you.
The silver lining is that when my wife is done reading the posts over there she can’t stop thanking me.
LOL Dr. P – I use a differnt one. I’m SAW50ST8.
its imamother.com
And I thank my husband also 🙂
That’s the one, I’ll let my wife know to look out for you.
As you can imagine, I’m quite outspoken LOL.
And to any women reading this: its a great website and has a lot of awesome resources for frum women. It is NOT as moderated as YWN.
There are a few issues here. First of all a lot of girls today get married with the idea that ‘I don’t want a long time learner because I want to stay home with my kids!’. Well that is very nice – but in today’s world – most families need two earners.
I also know other girls – who have degrees – decide that it is better to be on govt programs because ‘the most important job I have is to be a Jewish mother and stay home with my kids’.
There has to be some responsibility when people get married. Whether you decide on Kolel or not – you can’t expect to live off of other people or the govt. It has become the norm for young couples (both Kollel and Non) to not get married legally in order to stay on their parent’s insurance plans. That is totally dishonest. If the insurance company knew that a religious ceremony had taken place – they would kick them off.
I pay full tuition for 5 children in Brooklyn kids tuition – which comes to $40,000.00. With mortgage, food, insurance and other expenses it is tough but we make do without other things. We don’t go on vacations or have 2 cars. With this economy I have not gotten a raise in a few years. Our tuition keeps going up but my husband refuses to ask for a break. He fully believes that we should sell our house before we ask the Yeshiva to take less.
As for cleaning help – I do have it twice a week because I work full time (out of the house at 8 return home at 6). It is a necessity if you work.
I am out of the house 7 am to 6 pm. As is my husband. Granted we only have 2 kids, but we make it work. My house isn’t spotless but its passable. We do what we can.
For those of you with cleaning help – if schools said we won’t give you a scholarship without it, would you be willing to give up your cleaning help? Or forgo yeshiva education?
Says who, I value Yeshiva education enough that there are plenty of ways I will sacrifice to make sure they can have a good, solid education. If moving was required, I would. B”H, my husband and I have found a possible solution that will allow us to pay full tuition without too much agmas nefesh by sending our kids to a school that is 15 minutes further away.
We make a lot of choices in life. These are the things I wouldn’t give up to make sure that my kids had a good Jewish education:
1) Food
2) Shelter
3) Running water
4) Basic clothing
5) Love
Anything after that is fair game. I would get rid of my gardener, sell (or rent) my house, sell my jewelry and other possesions etc. But I think I am in the minority. I’m not surprised that schools in Lakewood are closing down because people don’t make tuition a priority. They make Kollel a priority (which is 100% valid if that’s what they want), but then Yeshiva education gets lost.
3 issues:
I strongly disagree with the implication that someone who is poor should be kicked out of the city if he can’t afford tuition. Since when is it a midda of Yidden to throw people out of town if he is poor?? Even if there is cheaper places to live.
As far as cleaning help, I would agree it is unnecessary IF the mother isn’t working. To compare to our bubbe’s who didn’t have cleaning help, it is because out Bubbe’s stayed at home (B”H).
I don’t even believe there is a right to force a mother to work. The tradition of Jewish mothers, with the support of Torah sources, is for them to stay at home. (Kollel wives notwithstanding.)
I strongly disagree with the implication that someone who is poor should be kicked out of the city if he can’t afford tuition. Since when is it a midda of Yidden to throw people out of town if he is poor?? Even if there is cheaper places to live.
I agree with this statement. We don’t throw anyone out of the city.
However, the school is not Mechuyav to take anyone who does not pay the tuition they request from them.
B”H, we are Rachmanim Benei Rachmanim and those with more are willing to support those with less. When they are not, those with less will have to find other methods of being Mechanech their children.
Ben Torah, I never said to kick poor people out of the city at all.
Cleaning help is great, but it is a luxury. Whether you are working full time or not. With rare exception.
I have no problem with women staying at home.
However, someone has to foot the bill. Who is footing the bill?
Is it more important to have a stay at home mother OR a yeshiva education. We do have to make choices.
My grandparents could not afford to send both kids to yeshiva. So my uncle went to Yeshiva and my mother went to public school. Choices are tough, but necessary.
GAW, that website is really entertaining.
Ittisa asked me to point out that I don’t go myself onto that website.
SJS- You mentioned you have 2 kids- so of course i can understand why for you cleaning help is a luxury. However, I don’t think you can say a struggling family of 8 or whatever should give up their cleaning help for tuition. No matter how much e/o pitches in to help, it makes life a lot easier to have the extra help.
blinky, so who should pay the cost of the cleaning help. I am assuming that a family of 8 already gets a large tuition break. Shouldn’t that $2500-$5000 go towards the school instead of making your life easier?
Like I said, life is about difficult choices. Nowadays, no one wants to choose and wants someone else to foot the bill.
What can I say? I”H when you will have a large family, maybe you will understand.
Blinky, you didn’t answer the question.
I am surrounded by plenty of large families. My stepsister has 10 kids. My cousins have 10 kids. My stepfather has 7. My best friends growing up had 7, 8 and 8.
Are they struggling with tuition? Do they have cleaning help?
P.s. Sorry, what was the question?
“What can I say? I”H when you will have a large family, maybe you will understand. “
What does that mean?
1 is a rebbe in a school where his kids go for free. No cleaning help, the kids pitch in
1 is wealthy
2 get huge handouts for tuition but has no cleaning help
1 pays full tuition, has cleaning help and just makes it
1 has kids that are fully grown at the moment but did pay full tuition
The question was “Shouldn’t that $2500-$5000 go towards the school instead of making your life easier?” and a follow up “If not, who should pay that difference?”
GAW, it means that I can’t understand her position because I don’t have 8 kids.
GAW, it means that I can’t understand her position because I don’t have 8 kids.
Why not? One can not have eight children and pay full tuition?
Is it Assur or something else I didn’t know about?
I would like a source please.
I would imagine a father with 8 children has a higher cumulative tutition bill than a father with 2 children, and not necessarily a higher income. Few jobs compensate employees based upon the number of children. Clearly as Torah Jews this will not, nor should it, interfere with parents right, if not obligation, to fulfill one of first mitzvos in the Torah of having children, as many times as possible.
So basically, its half and half. Some don’t have cleaning help and some do. So my advice- either way is fine but I wouldn’t advise you to think less of the ppl who do have cleaning help and are struggling, because some of them really want to support the yeshivohs and they do give up a lot to do so. So in response to your question- would you tell such a family to only eat bread and water even though they will save a lot of $ by doing so? Of course not. They might buy cheaper foods and shop in cheaper stores. So the same is here, ppl give up certain things and if giving up their cleaning lady once a week is not one of it- thats fine too.
Clearly as Torah Jews this will not, nor should it, interfere with parents right, if not obligation, to fulfill one of first mitzvos in the Torah of having children, as many times as possible.
Of course not.
However, Ezehu Chacham HaRoeh Es Hanolad.
And Kesubos 49B. (The community has the right to embarass anyone who does not support their children into supporting them).
Of course, as I posted above:
B”H, we are Rachmanim Benei Rachmanim and those with more are willing to support those with less. When they are not, those with less will have to find other methods of being Mechanech their children. (emphasis added)
So in response to your question- would you tell such a family to only eat bread and water even though they will save a lot of $ by doing so? Of course not.
Not me, Chazal:
Aseah Shabbatcha Chol V’Al Yitztarech L’Briyos.
I would tell them to eat very minimal food. Like, eat rice and beans a lot more. Basic, minimal food that still provides proper nutrients. Its also not a matter of thinking less, but it is a bottom line matter. If you have $2500-$5000 to spare, that money SHOULD be going to the school barring extreme circumstances.
And you (general) shouldn’t be going to the bungalow colony.
And both parents should be working. Night shifts if child care is too expensive.
Sure people aren’t paid on a per child basis. Maybe they need to make tough decisions on who to send to yeshiva or who not?
Clearly in Lakewood, people aren’t making that decision and two schools closed down. So now NONE of those kids have a yeshiva education.
What other option? If both parents are working poor, home schooling is not an option.
Ben Torah:
Please quote the statement you are refering to, or at least mention the person you wish to answer. I am not sure if you are refering to me or someone else.
Ben Torah,
I’m sure it would be accurate to say that your opinion is that the Torah way is to have as many children as is possible, without considering financial issues. I think that is the mainstream yeshivish approach as well. Suppose for a moment that you know well in advance that no child will be allowed to attend yeshiva unless his or her parents pay full tuition every year (which should be the general case, with exceptions being few rather than the norm).
As you say, income doesn’t go up based on the number of children, and once a family has maximized its earning potential (both parents working), homeschooling is not an option.
Is it better that the children should never be born or that the children should be born but attend a school that the parents can afford (i.e. public school)?
gavra_at_work: SJSinNYC said “Maybe they need to make tough decisions on who to send to yeshiva or who not?”
I am suggesting if both parents are working, the kids cannot be schooled at home (or even be at home unschooled).
squeak: I believe there is a halachic basis to say that the general community is to pay for the chinuch of children of poor parents (without infringing upon their mitzvah of pru urvu.)
Ben Torah,
I’d prefer if you’d answer my question.
I am suggesting if both parents are working, the kids cannot be schooled at home (or even be at home unschooled).
Ben Torah:
Why are both parents working? Shouldn’t the mother be at home?
(Socratic)
Also going to public school does not preclude teaching poor children torah (as an afterschool program, for example)
squeak: It is certainly better they be born, which you acknowledge is the Torah way. And their being born should not be contingent on financial considerations, which we both recognize is the Torah way. And once that is the case, parents should pay, but if that isn’t possible the community bears the burden.
gavra_at_work: I am suggesting that if borh parents ARE working (regardless whether that is ideal – a somewhat separate discussion), that leaves no option of keeping the children home. In any event, no Jewish child should ever be denied a Torah chinuch whether both parents are working or not.
Sending a Jewish child to public school is the quickest way, in my opinion, to *throw* him off the derech.
Ben Torah, never before in our history (that I am aware of) have every child recieved a Jewish education the way we have now. Every child – boy and girl. From 5+. Its beautiful and costly.
Couple that with the recent increase in Kollel families.
Add in our statements of “necessities” for other things that we prioritize over tuition.
What should we cut? Do we cut girls education and send them to public school? Do we cut out chicken from most tables? Do we cut out Kollel? Do we force both parents to work? Do we educate our kids better to get better jobs to be able to afford educating everyone?
You feel that the community has a moral obligation to subsidize yeshiva tuition for all children, and I’m not going to argue with that. But at least we have another point that we agree on- namely that public school is a better option than decreasing the participants. I’m not really concerned about your opinion regarding “throwing a child off the derech”. I’d rather deal with, and see the community deal with, the problems that come from sending to public school than deal with shrinking Jewish families.
Ben Torah:
SJS amswered the second point. I will just add that it depends on your location (I would not send a child to public school in South Side, even if I was NOT Jewish), as well as the home. I would bet that most Klei Kodesh children would come out with strong Yiddishkeit, even if they went to public school (or the new “charter schools” that are popping up).
As far as the first, one of the parents should possibly be home so that they can homeschool, thereby not requiring tzedaka, instead of making a pittance and then requiring Tzedaka for babysitting & Yeshiva.
To clarify,
Yeshivos have made it clear that they cannot or will not significantly decrease their operating expense (or even hold the line). Barring a suddence resurgence in fundraising or a dramatic increase in the income base of tuition paying parents, I doubt that scholarship money will increase as quickly as the need for it increases. In the near-term cognizant families will be looking at ways to reduce their tuition burden.
The public option is one that by and large is not considered, but I have heard the other option considered – IMHO another example of misplaced priorities.
In addition, co-op homeschooling is another available option that is not even considered. It is very affordable and doable, and every bit as private as you want it to be.
gavra_at_work:
I have tried my hardest to not respond to any of your posts since the discussion last year about the same topic. Today, you have pressed the button and will get a response:
you suggest a child be rejected for a lack of money? you say a family should choose between food on the table vs. tuition? you suggest a family homeschool their kids?
Here’s a sweet secret as to why the wealthy benefactors of a city pay the tuitions of the poor families. It’s not for the sake of the schools. It’s for the sake of the poor family’s children future. Without formal education these children will be the next generation of poor families unable to send children to school. The tuition is paid in order to BREAK THE CYCLE OF POVERTY.
This should be the priority of every donor. NO MONEY SHOULD GO TO INSTITUTIONS OUTSIDE OF YOUR CITY, UNLESS EVERY INSTITUTION IN THE CITY IS ABLE TO WITHSTAND THE FINANCIAL BURDENS.
EDITED
artchill:
How dare you suggest a child be rejected for a lack of money?
Where did I suggest this? I completely disagree and think everyone should be accepted to yeshiva regardless of their income. Children should not pay for the sins of parents (even if the parents spend their money incorrectly, they should still get their children in yeshiva).
However, eventually there will no money for the school. We will have to (and are in some locales) deal with it whaen the time comes.
I am only suggesting how one CAN avoid taking Tzedaka if they so desire. That has nothing to do with the Tzedaka being given or not.
That being said, even though I “pushed one of your buttons”, suggesting that my family will require tzedaka is completely out of line.
artchills post has since been edited
The tuition is paid in order to BREAK THE CYCLE OF POVERTY.
Only in certain areas, not where it is expected that the child will never work anyway.
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