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Predictable yet fascinating to watch how this thread slowly descends to another pro/anti Zionist bout…
DHM: It was an obvious point (with the word “real” bolded). Since he is of the family, he is a “Brisker”. If you mean the “yeshivos”, then do you include the Kollel? (lol)
I have no agenda here, just that everyone should live and let live (within the realms of Halacha), be factual, and try to learn something in the process.
I actually like having you here. You give a viewpoint that is strictly EY, and back it up, unlike others who insult & degrade. Further, I know we are incompatable, so it doesn’t bother me that we disagree (as I’ve said in other threads).
Getting back to the original point, do you agree EY has to have an army of some type, even if it only consists of Yeshiva Bochrim training during Baim Hazmanim? If not, that shittah is following the Avairah of Yoshiyahu.
However, if you tell me that you may as well have those who do not learn anyway fight, and it will all be decided by the Rebbono Shel Olam anyway, I’m OK with that.
I really didn’t want to bother you further, and don’t feel the need to respond if you don’t want to do so.
Predictable yet fascinating to watch how this thread slowly descends to another pro/anti Zionist bout…
When did I say anything pro-zionist?
Although, halachicly & hashkaficly, it is an interesting question whether it is better to have an army of Torah Yidden vs. an army of those who don’t follow Torah Umitzvos and have additional people learning more hours (lets say eight hrs vs six per day).
DHM “So you also recognize that the Israeli government is no better that the American government for the Jews then”…
DHM: I think you can gain from learning Rav Kook, even if you ignore anything that has a whiff of zionism or the words “Eretz Yisrael” there is still a tremendous amound to learn from his seforim.
DHM, so Dovid ha”melech was a destroyer when he lead the Jewish Army to battle? Stop your drivel already!
mikehall12382 — I’m not commenting on this back and forth regarding the state of Israel — I just want to make a point for the sake of accuracy. The US as a matter of fact provides just as much of a “stipend” for those sitting and learning as the state of Israel — just it’s available to others as well (including the dregs of society!). The “kollel stipend” in Israel amounts to a few hundred dollars a month (and is only available to those with at least 3 kids.) The amount of welfare a Kollel family with only limited outside income and 3 kids in the US would be eligible for (including food stamps, WIC, section 8, etc.) would be more than that. (And that’s not to mention Medicaid, etc. — in Israel even the unemployed must pay health insurance premiums, albeit on a sliding scale.)
What is parshas Ki Teitzeh all about? isnt protecting a milchemes mitzva?
g_a_w:
Back to the original point. I’ll be honest I don’t know much novi so I don’t really know what the whole story is with Yoshiyahu. I’m lucky we did Shabbos last zman because the only thing I know about him is from 56b “kol ha’omer Yoshiyahu chata eino ele ta’ah”. But it was a second seder gemarah and agadita, so I don’t know what it is referring to.
I will admit that the Yerushalmi is referring to ‘guardians’ not an army. Meaning that while there might not be a need for a defensive battalion, an army is needed for offense.
However, there is still a significant difference between those armies and the IDF. Namely, the Sanhedrin and the Urim V’Tumim.
Whether you hold that Israel had a right to forcefully take the country with an army or not, at this point the IDF is primarily a defensive structure.
I will add though, that since the Yerushalmi seems to suggest that the limud haTorah that takes place in a city protects all the emmebrs of the city (even those not learning) it could be that the IDF serves to protect those cities and towns in the country that do not have any lomdim in them.
But even then, what comes out is that taking boys out of the beis medrish to go to the army is having the exact opposite effect of what is intended.
ItcheSrulik:
It doesn’t matter. I don’t know what he wrote about, but there are plenty of other seforim on a wide variety of topics that are 100% kosher for me that I don’t feel deprived enough to have to pick up a sefer that is only 98% kosher.
“a sefer that is only 98% kosher. “
98% kosher is 0% kosher. Either Rav Kook was an Orthodox rabbi or he was not. Either his followers are Orthodox or they are not.
Enough of this bashing of hashkafot that disagree slightly with out own! Enough of dividing the Torah world!!!
And give credit to those who helped to create the favorable environment for Torah in Eretz Yisrael. Rav Kook was the single person most able to bridge the gap between observant and non-observant Jews there, and to make the large non-observant majority look favorably on the Torah world. He was admired even by the gedolim with whom he disagreed.
Gimpel, it simply turned to what really stands behind the post. If one asks: How can I hide from responibility/ law while enjoying the benefit of others filling up my slack, the answer is: why are you avoiding responsibility. Ma Damcha Samuk medamo. so always there will be some “spiritual” souls, counting their summer homes and saying why spiritually you dont need to have a responsibility. it is not an easy sugya.
charliehall:
I don’t prescribe to your dichotomy of “orthodox” or “non-orthodox”. If a person keeps Shabbos but not Kosher is he orthodox? If he keeps Shabbos, Kosher and Family Purity but not does not put up mezuzos on his doorways is he orthodox?
Instead there are varying degrees of following the ways of the Torah. There is the Chassidishe, Litvishe, Sefardic, Teimanic- all of these are tried and true ways that virtually no camp will say to another that it is false. All of these are paths in serving Hashem and a person can be in any degree to infinity on one of these paths.
A book can also be somewhere along the path. If it tells a person to keep Shabbos- this is great. If it also says keep kosher- wonderful. But if it says that leather teffilin is the ‘Old Way’, we need to keep pace with society and the future is in plastics- this is a problem. Does that mean that he is wrong about the first two? Absolutely not.
I also urge you to read up on who was involved in making the environment favorable to learning Torah here. The Chazon Ish says that he lost years of his life fighting for Torah values here.
Professional:
Your mistake is in what that responsibility is according to halacha.
mikehall:
You misunderstood the point I was trying to make by redefining your statements. I was trying to show you how views like the ones you espouse lead to problems like those that I brought.
We can go on and on about this way is right and this way is wrong
To defend DHM:
DHM would call the Satmer Rov 98% correct for not taking money from the state, Rav Elyashiv 98% correct because he worked for the Rabbinate of the state, Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach 98% correct because he held of Hetter Mechira, etc.
It is just his way of wording things in an extreme manner, but he doesn’t mean to be Mevaze a Gadol B’Yisroel, I’m sure, even if he doesn’t personally hold of his shittos.
gavra_at_work…..I hope your right….
mikehall:
On page 18 in Koveitz Maimarim chelek beis from Rav Elchonon Wasserman he quotes the Chofetz Chaim explaining that the GR”A went against Chassidus in order to prevent the Soton from doing it. Meaning he did it to help them.
If something is not your way then it is 100% wrong for every Gadol you quote, one can easily quote another Gadol that holds differently
This is not true. I do not think that there is an inherent problem in wearing a bekitshe as opposed to a frok or vis versa. I do not think that it is wrong to put on shel yad tefillin sitting down.
The truth is that I can’t really continue this conversation without stepping on people’s toes and that’s not my intention here at all. You don’t like that I used the word krum to describe R’ Kook’s zionistic teachings. That’s fine, I can understand that that was disrespectful towards the people who do and I apologize for that. It was not a comment I should have made on a public forum.
I do disagree with you though when you say that ‘zionism is not clear cut’. But that’s my hashkafa.
g_a_w:
That’s an appeal to ridicule right there. These are all small issues; a beketshe or a frok, a a shtreimel or a fedora. You don’t change the type of Jew you call yourself for those things.
Anyway my opinion on Zionism is irrelevant since it doesn’t exist anymore.
In fact I’m pretty sure this topic is a deflection from the original which was whether it is correct to send a child who is sitting and learning to the IDF.
DHM if I offended you I am sorry, but it’s ok to disagree…
Nope, you didn’t.
g_a_w:
That’s an appeal to ridicule right there. These are all small issues; a beketshe or a frok, a a shtreimel or a fedora. You don’t change the type of Jew you call yourself for those things.
Anyway my opinion on Zionism is irrelevant since it doesn’t exist anymore.
In fact I’m pretty sure this topic is a deflection from the original which was whether it is correct to send a child who is sitting and learning to the IDF.
1: I’m glad you consider Heter Mechira a “small issue”. I don’t think a typical “Brisker” would.
2: We both agree that someone learning should not be in the IDF. I just think the country needs an “army” (i.e. people with weapons to defend) of some sort, which you agreed to earlier.
B”H, Shalom.
P.S. There are gemaros in the first perek of Bava Basra that actually state (and they are brought down L’halacha in hilchos Tzedaka) that a Talmud Chacham does not need to pay taxes for the city militia, as “Rabbanan Lo Tzrichi N’Tirusa”. This would apply whether the Rabbanan were working or not.
Even if I were a talmud chacham, I would not want to put that to the test.
I’m not a Brisker but we should do a test.
Find out if Briskers would go to Rav Shlomo Zalman for shailas and find out if they would go to R’ Kook for one. My kollel is near geula so it shouldn’t be hard for me to find one.
The difference in my opinion is that Heter Mechira is like opening bottles on Shabbos (also R Shlomo Zalman’s heter)- a big kula but not a radical departure from Halacha. Zionism though, it didn’t start by the frum. We always had a ahava for E”Y but Zionism was a modern creation and you know how some of us feel about that. V’haMaskil Yavin.
Also, what did Reish Lakish ever do to you that he lost his chezkos ne’emanos by you?
” Zionism though, it didn’t start by the frum.”
Not true. The first aliyah predated Herzl. And observant Jews had been making aliyah from Europe since Ramban.
DHM:
I would trust Reish Lakish. I just wouldn’t trust myself to actually be a Talmid Chacham, even if I was one.
Speaking of Reish Lakish, he is one of my favorite people in Gemorah (together with Chanan Bisha). Not for being a BT, but for not leaving any yerusha.
Awesome, truthful shittah.
The difference in my opinion is that Heter Mechira is like opening bottles on Shabbos (also R Shlomo Zalman’s heter)- a big kula but not a radical departure from Halacha. Zionism though, it didn’t start by the frum. We always had a ahava for E”Y but Zionism was a modern creation and you know how some of us feel about that. V’haMaskil Yavin.
Pun Intended 🙂 I can live with that. I’m not bothered by the Zionist angle either way, because as you pointed out before, Zionism is dead (like all the ‘isms before it). And as I pointed out, my point is not about Zionism, but about current people (not Tannaim like Rabbanu HaKadosh (same Gemorah)) being Somech on a “Nes”.
“That’s fine, I can understand that that was disrespectful towards the people who do and I apologize for that.”
Apology accepted.
I would faster go for a Rav Kook halachic opinion (even though my Rav disagrees with Rav Kook on many things) than I would Rav Elyashiv.
That doesn’t mean I think Rav Elyashiv is anti-Torah.
And BTW, to your definition of who is Torah observant – no one keeps halacha 100%. So therefore, no one is actually Torah observant. I am sure that isn’t what you meant.
charliehall:
You are confusing the love that we have always had for Eretz Yisroel with the political ideal that Jews have a homeland…wherever that may be- including Uganda.
SJSinNYC:
The question wasn’t aimed in general, the discussion was about the Brisker opinion on Rav Shlomo Zalman himself after his shita. But I appreciate your opinion.
What I means was there is ALWAYS more Torah to keep, its called Spiritual Growth. Whatever path that you are on, there is always more room to grow in your avodah, whether it be learning with more hasmoda, strengthening your dveikus, strengthening your shemiras Shabbos, taking on chumros. Therefor a persons observance can ONLY be in degrees as once you keep one mitzvah in the Torah l’shem mitzvah you are an observant Jew.
its ridiculous in israel to be jewish u need to go to the army and maby brith mila
@dpt – That’s an interesting way of phrasing their order of priorities. I think it’s unfortunately true. 😛
On the subject of renouncing Israeli Citizenship, Israelis in consulates seem to like taking forever in getting the process done. They go around acting all indignant that anyone would *gasp* not want to be an Israeli citizen. It takes a lot of prodding; if you go through the process, just have faith in Hashem that there’ll be a light at the end of this veeeeeery long tunnel. They eventually have to do it, even if you prod them for months, but I believe your job is done once you submitted your papers and handed in your Israeli passport and the like.
If you’re just under 16, I think they like to dilly-dally until you turn army enlistment age so they can pressure you about doing service. If you JUST turned 16, I’d make it very, very clear that your birthday was just the other day, week etc, and you applied to get this whole thing over with a long time before.
By the way, has anyone with renounced citizenship had negative experiences “returning” to Israel as tourists? Was anyone ever or discriminated against due to their status and/or detained from leaving the airport, such as because the databases there weren’t updated with your citizenship status?
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