Israeli Citizenship

I for one am not worried about what would happen if no one is drafted.

That’s what Yoshiyahu said.

Derech, its easy to be a groyseeh knocker sitting in Brooklyn, going to Miami for winter vacation, catskills for summers. Move to Chevron, spend there some time and then tell us how much bitachon you have.

mamashtakah:

I live in E”Y

Although I still disagree with your rephrasing of mikehall’s sentence, you at least agree that Hashem had something to do with it.

MikeHall:

Let me rephrase.

The Yerushalmi says that Rav Yudin sent Rav Chiya, Rav Ami and Rav Asi to check out the town in E”Y. They get to this one town and can’t find anybody learning Torah. They ask the people of the town, ‘Bring the guards of the city.’ The people of the city bring the guards of the city. They [the Rabbis] say to them, these aren’t the guards of the city- they are the DESTROYERS of the city. So the people of the city ask ‘then who are the guards of the city?’ They answer back ‘The scholars’.

So the Yerushalmi says that actual guards are destroyers and the people who spend their time learning are the guardians. Comes along you who says ‘No I’m happy that there is a draft to the army to build our soldier base, so that we were able to unite Jerusalem’.

Is this accurate?

g_a_w

Come on you know that I’m going to bring Chizkiyahu in here.

I posted last night a new topic ” Army “. I cant believe it has been removed by moderator? OMG!!!

Profesional:

I live in E”Y on the wrong side of the green line. I have mentioned this in other threads as well.

The IDF is our hishtadlut. It’s unfortunate Israel needs a draft, it’s unfortunate Israel needs an army, but that’s the way the world runs.

So DHM, what would you have said in 1948? That the Hagana should disband because Hashem is protecting us? Or 1967? Or 1973? What would have happened to all of the scholars if there was no army?

Put your trust in Hashem first and Tzahal second, but we are not on the madreiga to be able to depend on miracles.

mikehall:

Your being a zionist was not the point. It was your pointing to the army as the source of the victory.

g_a_w:

Please go back the Yerushalmi I quoted earlier and explained to me why an army is necessary. To me the Yerushalmi is suggesting that the soldiers are destroyers and it is ONLY the lomdei Torah that are protecting the city. I am sure you can see why I am drawing these parallels from that Yerushalmi. There is no such thing as ‘the best of both worlds’ when it comes to Torah. Whenever we are engaged in anything that is not Torah – even if it is another mitzvah we are not doing the ideal. It might be what Hashem wants from us, but that is from His perspective. I urge you again to pick up the sefer Binyan Olam. I really feel you especially will understand what its about.

mamashtakah:

First I was going to make a tirade about your second paragraph. Instead I offer the following. Can you go back to the Yerushalmi that I quoted earlier in this thread and explain to me your position in light of the Yerushalmi. Especially I would like you to explain how to understand your comment “What would have happened to all of the scholars if there was no army?” in conjunction to that Yerushalmi.

You are mistaken. Believing that learning Torah itself will protect us from anything is not depending on miracles. Hashem put into the teva of the world that the sun rises during the day, rain comes out of the clouds and learning Torah protects the individual and the klal. This is not a miracle that we are talking about but nature.

And NEVER put your FAITH in the army. This is bfeirush a pasuk.

???-?????????? ??????????? ??????-?????, ??????? ??? ?????????

whats the deal with girls and the Israeli army?? Also, if you never lived in Israel (lets say a boy) but he’s Israeli will he get drafted??

rockymountains…”My sons learning in E’Y claimed no knowledge of their fathers birth place on their student visas as recommended by their Roshei Yeshivos”…..

I want to make sure I understand, the Rabbi, the Rosh Yeshiva, recommended you lie????…Do you not see a problem with this?

to mikehall12382,they left the space for fathers place of birth blank,I am not sure what they would have done if asked directly.

Would they be suspicious if you came on one passport and left on another??

Also a girl going when she is 18-19 like for sem and is Israeli (born there) will she have problems?

Wanna know whats pathetic, I went to get a passport and they were like place of birth and I was like Jerusalem, Israel but they wouldn’t put Israel on so it just says Jerusalem cuz of political issues, like seriously??

ItcheSrulik:

I’m not denying that their is a metziyus called hishtadlus. Especially by parnassah which these psukim are talking about. Although I think I will disagree on some people here on what can constitute hishtadlus. I did explain though that in the case of learning what the army is doing is not called hishtadlus.

I obviously don’t learn any R’ Kook and I don’t think anything else you wrote was in any way connected to this discussion.

mikehall:

When the government threatens your Yiddishkeit and you can get away with just lying- you do it. And if its a girl- the Chazon Ish already said yaharog v’al yavor.

Sister Bear:

I renewed my passport here before I made aliyah and on place of issue it just says ‘Jerusalem’ too.

thanks guys for your help. kinda scary to go to embassy after i have left Israel for 10 years. Would love to visit tho, love Israel, just not my place to live. I prefer Canada

As I haven’t researched this super recently, these details should be checked out, but the general idea is definitely accurate:

This discussion (renouncing citizenship/ IDF service/ visiting Israel, etc.) appears to be involving individuals who do not live in Israel. An Israeli citizen (by virtue of being born in Israel, having an Israeli parent, etc.) is not obligated to perform his IDF service as long as his permanent residence is abroad. He/ She is allowed to visit Israel (there is a maximum amount of time per year that I don’t remember), and can spend 10 months ONE time as a student. However, you MUST follow all the rules and get the proper documentation. That includes an Israeli passport (and with the computerized records nowadays, there is a very strong chance they will know you are Israeli even if you try to enter on a foreign passport), and getting your official deferment from the Lishkat Hagiyus (Draft office). (This can be done through the embassy in the U.S.)

Religious girls are automatically exempt from army service (not simply a “deferment” which puts it off), so if you are a frum girl/woman, it may be worth it applying for that exemption rather than simply the non- resident exemption. You would have to prove that you are really religious, and they’ve gotten stricter about that lately, but if you really are, it shouldn’t be a problem.

My husband was born in Israel and moved to the US as a baby. He visited Israel numerous times, and even learned in yeshiva there, but was careful to keep his documents current.

If at any point you move to Israel (via official Aliyah or not), the deferment is no longer valid, and one would have to report to the lishkat hagiyus to determine what army obligations one has (dependent on many factors such as age, whether one is married with kids, job, etc.), and either perform the IDF service or get the appropriate paperwork for an exemption or further deferral.

BTW, renouncing citizenship can also have an effect on your kids, particularly if they ever choose to make Aliyah — it can impact their Aliyah benefits. Make sure to look into that as well before choosing to renounce their citizenship. (Obviously if you renounce your own citizenship before they are born, then this won’t apply as the won’t be citizens to begin with.)

Derech HaMelech….”When the government threatens your Yiddishkeit and you can get away with just lying…”

Are we talking about the same government that provides funding to brochers so they can learn all day without getting a job???Sounds pretty nice to me…

“obviously don’t learn any R’ Kook”

Well, maybe you should?

mikehall:

Are we talking about the same government that provides funding to brochers so they can learn all day without getting a job???Sounds pretty nice to me…

So what you are saying is, since they provide funding for yeshivos and kollelim that makes them nice? They also let chazir be sold in stores across the country. Do you condone that as well?

What does one thing have to do with the other. The fact that they help support yeshivos does not give them a hand into how we are mechanech our children. Hence Chinuch Atzmai. It does not give them a right to say we demand your children to place them in makomos sakanos. It does not give them a right to force our children to be in a place where they may have to be mechalel Shabbos.

And no I don’t think I should be learning Rav Kook yet since I don’t feel confident that I will be able to filter out the krum parts. For now I have to leave them aside just as the gedolim that I follow left his side.

“I don’t think I should be learning Rav Kook yet since I don’t feel confident that I will be able to filter out the krum parts”

While I am not a talmid of Rav Kook — I identify more with the Religious Zionism of Rav Reines and Rav Soloveitchik — I would never call the writings of an acknowledged gedol of Rav Kook “krum”. That even applies to something that has been unanimously rejected by klal Yisrael such as his position on women voting. (We follow Rav Uziel who disputed Rav Kook on that.)

I’ve also been told by Rav Kook’s talmidim that his writings do not translate well into English, which makes them less accessible to those for whom our first language is English.

mikehall:

So you are saying:

You support people’s freedom to raise chazir in E”Y so long as they don’t physically harm anyone.

You do not conscribe to the saying kol yisrael areivim zeh lazeh.

You believe that provided they greases the wheels, E”Y shuold have access to our children.

You disagree with the Yerushalmi that I brought earlier.

As to your question. You know, I think America is wrong for instituting the Blue Laws but I have no qualms with taking money from them. The Israeli government is no different.

Charliehall:

AS g_a_w said, yes I mean those hashkafos that are neged the ones that I learn from my Rebbeim.

However I would like to add that there is a difference between R’ Kook, R’ JB Soloveitchik, (don’t know R’ Reines) etc and Rav Aurbach, the Satmer Rav, Rav Elyashiv et al.

The difference is that there was no room for conversation between the former and the latter:

-When R’ Kook’s views became known Rav Hutner distanced himself from Rav Kook.

-On the other hand I heard from a firsthand witness that that after the Satmar Rav left the room that Rav Ahron Kutler was in someone commented that ‘now that the Satmer Rebbe left we can really talk’ to which Rav Ahron said ‘now that the Satmer Rebbe left, there is no one left to talk to’.

-Rav Shach privately agreed with anti-zionists but felt that there was more toeles to making the party.

Over here in E”Y at least the dichotomy between these two camps is quite clear. With the exception of Lubavitchers themselves, anyone who follows the first group does not call themselves chareidi while those in the second do.

P.S. I have no clue what “Rav Kook’s views” are. All I know is that they put out an awesome version of Ritva & Rashba.

DHM:

At least I would consider Dr. Rabbi Moshe Meiselman as “Brisker”, and he says Rav Yoshe Ber is his Rebbe.

Unless only REAL Briskers don’t call Rav Yoshe Ber “the Rav” (which I do not, that is not my Hashkafa either).

As far as being “very organized”, I (and Ittisa) wish I was. 🙂

I just see in you a microcosm of the stereotypical Charaeidi in EY. Not that it is all inclusive (I have “Chareidi” friends in EY who are nothing like this), but this is the PC groupspeak (for lack of a better term) that goes around, enforceable by Shunning.

Not that it is a problem there, either. That is what makes (B’H) all Yidden different, but all with the same goal.

“R’ Reines”

Rabbi Yitzchak Yaakov Reines was a rosh yeshiva in Lithuania who was a pioneer in two things: First, he added secular studies to his yeshiva almost a half century before Yeshiva College was founded in America as an adjunct to the RIETS yeshiva, and he was the first leader of the “Mizrachi” religious Zionist movement.

“Rav Yoshe Ber was not someone whom the Gedolim distanced themselves from”

Correct. In particular, he was very close to Rav Hutner (with whom he had attended the University of Berlin), the Lubavicher Rebbe, Rav Kotler, and his cousin Rav Moshe Feinstein, even though they disagreed with him on a lot of things. And The Rav was so respected by the charedi community that they made him a member of the Moetzet Gedolei HaTorah of Aguath Israel of America while still in his 30s.

mikehall12382: my friend has sent his sons to a mainstream yeshiva in ey (same problem as rockmountain), and the mashgiach told them TO MAKE UP a new set of parents to apply for student visas. they did and had no problems from the idf. there is no mitzvah to fall into the trap of serving in the idf.

mikehall12382: my friend has sent his sons to a mainstream yeshiva in ey (same problem as rockmountain), and the mashgiach told them TO MAKE UP a new set of parents to apply for student visas. they did and had no problems from the idf. there is no mitzvah to fall into the trap of serving in the idf.

Fascinating (with the raised eyebrow).