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Anyone know how I can denounce my Israeli citizenship so my kids won’t have problems with it?
You should be able to do so at any Israeli consulate or embassy.
Any children born prior to the renunciation taking effect (and it can easily take months for it to become effective once applied for), will likely be citizens at birth. You may be able to renounce the citizenship of any existing children at the same time you renounce yours. You can ask the consular officer how it affects any currently unborn child.
Depending when the child is expected, you may consider beginning the renunciation for all family members after the child is iy”h born. (Assuming they advise you that you can’t renounce it for a yet unborn child at the same time you do so for yourself.) You can ask them how you can renounce the citizenship of your minor children.
Here is some additional information regarding how it affects children:
http://www.israeliconsulate.org/Consular/en/registry/renounce.htm
And here is some additional info:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/Consular_affairs/Renouncing_Israeli_citizenship.htm
Just a small piece of advice…
Before you renounce your citizenship (to any country), make sure you have citizenship in another country. You don’t want to find yourself as a stateless person.
The Wolf
Just about any country, including Israel, will refuse to allow a citizen to renounce their citizenship unless they have (or are about to receive) citizenship with another country.
Volvie,
I don’t know about Israel, but that’s not true of the U.S. As per the Dept. of State:
Persons intending to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware that, unless they already possess a foreign nationality, they may be rendered stateless and, thus, lack the protection of any government. They may also have difficulty traveling as they may not be entitled to a passport from any country.
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html
The Wolf
Israel apparently has a reputation of giving citizens a hard time (i.e. the Ministry of Interior refusing to accept the request) to renounce their citizenship. You may explore the possibility (i.e. if it is even possible) of renouncing your minor children’s citizenship without renouncing your own (if they refuse your request to renounce your own citizenship.)
Another possibility is to not register your child’s birth abroad with Israel. This will mean they are technically a citizen, but the State of Israel wouldn’t (hopefully) know of their existence or the fact they are the child of a citizen. The problem with this is that they may somehow figure it out in the future. Additionally, in order to renounce the citizenship of a child (who has already been born), you will first need to register their birth with Israel. So if the renunciation doesn’t go through, at that point they will have him registered already.
Wolf: All 3 links I provided above clearly indicate proving another citizenship is required for Israel to even consider the request to renounce ones citizenship.
Volvie,
Based on the link you provided above, an Israeli must present proof of alternate citizenship before renouncing Israeli citizenship. So, what you said is true WRT Israel, but not the U.S.
The Wolf
I also doubt the State Department will accept an American’s request to renounce their citizenship without documenting foreign citizenship. The warning you quoted is likely intended for anyone who may try to evade this fact by falsely claiming other citizenship in order to facilitate their renunciation request.
Volvie,
Oh, I don’t doubt that they’ll make it very difficult for you to become intentionally stateless, but if push comes to shove, I believe they have to accept it.
But I’ll admit up front that I don’t know that for a fact.
The Wolf
There’s something very sad about this discussion.
I understand that there may be practical reasons for renouncing one’s citizenship, but it’s still sad to see a Jew do so.
if im an isreali citizen and i live abroad will my kids get called to the army ?
dd: No more sad than an American citizen renouncing his citizenship. (In fact for hashkafic reasons, with renouncing Israeli citizenship it may even be a happy occasion.)
jewish girl: If you are an Israeli citizen, you’re children are also citizens automatically – even if they were born abroad. (Even if they always lived abroad and never even visited Israel.) Whether than entails Army obligations I’m not certain, but from what I recall hearing is that in fact it does. (Although it may or may not be possible to officially get an Army exemption for having always been living abroad.) This is probably the most practical reason why a citizen would renounce their Israeli citizenship. (Their may be others as well.)
Can somebody please enlighten me – why would anybody want to renounce their Israeli citizenship?
Taxes and military service come to mind.
The Wolf
Sorry, I don’t know much of how they try to enforce Army service. I have heard of people successfully arguing with them to let off (perhaps in Israel itself, not sure about through the consulate) after they were giving them a hard time about past due Army service. But, again, I don’t know much of any details on this area. Perhaps you can find someone familiar with how to best resolve the situation to have them agree to relieve your husband of any purported military obligations. (A lawyer might be an option if affordable. Otherwise you should ask around people who dealt with similar problems.)
BTW, I doubt your husband will be able to renounce his citizenship while his Army obligations remain unresolved. Perhaps you can renounce it for yourself and hopefully your children. But people with outstanding military service is one of the reasons they usually will refuse to allow one to renounce it for. Come to think of it, it may complicate renouncing your children’s citizenship if your husband remains a citizen, since children of citizens are citizens. Even if you renounce it for yourself prior to the child being born may possibly not prevent your child from being a citizen if your husband remains one. It might be a better idea to renounce yours together with your new child’s simultaneously after he is iy”h born, (though you will still have the same issue for future children iy”h since your husband remains a citizen) although you need to verify if you can even do this. (Essentially the question is if both parents are citizens, can one parent renounce their citizenship AND their children’s citizenship if the other parent remains a citizen.)
Another facet is that if both parents (i.e. you and your husband) were born outside Israel and are only citizens of Israel due to your parents citizenship, it may be that your children born outside Israel never in fact acquired Israeli citizenship in the first place, and therefore you have no problem for them altogether.
Good luck.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/State/Acquisition+of+Israeli+Nationality.htm
Acquisition of nationality by birth is granted to:
1. Persons who were born in Israel to a mother or a father who are Israeli citizens.
2. Persons born outside Israel, if their father or mother holds Israeli citizenship, acquired either by birth in Israel, according to the Law of Return, by residence, or by naturalization.
3. Persons born after the death of one of their parents, if the late parent was an Israeli citizen by virtue of the conditions enumerated in 1. and 2. above at the time of death.
4. Persons born in Israel, who have never had any nationality and subject to limitations specified in the law, if they:
* apply for it in the period between their 18th and 25th birthday and
* have been residents of Israel for five consecutive years, immediately preceding the day of the filing of their application.
So it would seem if both you and your husband were born outside Israel then if your children are also born outside Israel they are not citizens. (I would still double check this understanding I am giving, prior to assuming its accuracy.)
Assuming that is correct, if you were born in Israel and your husband was born outside Israel (which you indicated above), AND you renounce YOUR citizenship (even if your husband remains a citizen), then any children born outside Israel AFTER your renunciation takes effect (not when you applied for the renunciation) would not be citizens — since you are no longer a citizen and your husband is not an Israeli-born citizen.
No problem.
If you are not Israeli and your husband is an Israeli who wasn’t born in Israel, then from the sound of it your children (born outside Israel) were never Israeli citizens to begin with.
Acquisition of Nationality by Residence
Special provision is made in the Nationality Law for former citizens of British Mandatory Palestine. Those who remained in Israel from the establishment of the State in 1948 until the enactment of the Nationality Law of 1952, became Israeli citizens by residence or by return.
According to an amendment (1980), further possibilities to acquire citizenship by residence, were included in the law.
The residence provision basically only applies to people who were living in Palestine pre-1948.
Since your husband was born outside Israel, he must’ve inherited his citizenship from his parent(s), and therefore does not pass on the citizenship to his kids if they are also born outside Israel. (The only time this would not be the case is if your husband became an Israeli citizen AFTER he was born i.e. Naturalization or Law of Return – as opposed to him becoming a citizen by virtue of being born to an Israeli citizen.)
In that case he would pass on his citizenship to his children regardless of where they were born.
Where were your husband’s parents born? (Not that that would make a difference if your husband himself became a citizen via the law of return.)
Another option, since he will probably have trouble renouncing his own citizenship due to his military obligations, is to just renounce the citizenship of your children. You would only be able to do so after they are born iy”h. And you would have to do it after each child.
http://www.israelemb.org/consular_NatioanlSubj.html
http://www.israelemb.org/forms/renouncement_minors.pdf
BTW, another issue for dual U.S. & Israeli citizens is that whenever they travel between the U.S. and Israel, they (both parents and children if they are all dual citizens) need to each have and carry with them 2 passports – a U.S. passport and an Israeli passport. This is since the U.S. requires all U.S. citizens to enter the U.S. with an American passport and Israel requires all Israeli citizens to enter Israel with an Israeli passport.
“Those who either left Israel under the age of 16 or were born abroad to Israeli parents, are generally exempt from conscription for as long as they remain resident abroad. Those who do return to Israel on a permanent basis are subject to conscription according to their age.
Those who left Israel at age 16 or over are subject to conscription
when they become 18 according to the Military Service law.
Duration of service is the same as for all other Israelis.”
From: http://atlanta.mfa.gov.il/mfm/Web/main/document.asp?documentid=134161
The military authorities have authorized the consulates abroad to perform certain services pertaining to military service. These include determining if one is obligated to serve in the army, verifying information on army service, and granting deferments. For all other matters such as reserves (Miluim), or physical examinations for draftees, you must contact the IDF authorities in Israel directly. The website of the IDF – Human Resources: http://www.aka.idf.il.
Every Israeli citizen, including those born abroad, must establish their army status at the age of 16 and a half.
You can verify you army status through the Consulate.
As a general rule, an Israeli citizen who has left Israel with both his or her parents before the age of 16 (this age may be subject to change by the Israeli authorities) or a child born abroad to an Israeli parent (whose family has not returned to live in Israel) is eligible for an army deferment.
Please Note it is important that you secure this exemption before you turn 17 (after you turn 16.5), regardless of your travel plans to Israel.
If you are eligible for the deferment, upon review and confirmation of your status, you will be provided with a written notice that your obligation to serve is deferred for as long as you reside abroad with your parents, and you are permitted to visit Israel every year under certain conditions.
To determine whether you are eligible for the deferment, the following is required:
1. Once you are 16 and a half years old, apply at the Consulate. Please Note that minors under the age of 18, must send to the Consulate a notarized agreement from both parents to give consular services.
2. Present all of your and your parents Israeli and foreign passports (Israeli, American and/or any nationality you might hold), including old and new passports. The passports must cover the time period between your 16th birthday and they day you come to the Consulate. The passports are required as evidence of the amount of days you and your parents resided in or visited Israel. You will need to prove that you or your parents have not resided in Israel since you were 16 years old.
3. Registration and Personal Request form (Number 7202).
4. Request for Deferment form (Number 7325).
5. A letter from his/her school stating the day of enrollment and an estimated date for graduation.
Just as you shouldn’t look to the CR for psak halacha, you should not look to the CR for legal advice. You need to ask an immigration lawyer familiar with Israeli law, or you need to work with an embassy or consulate official.
I wouldn’t worry so much. One parent was born is Israel and my family made aliyah when I was 10. I left Israel after I turned 16 (about 2 weeks before by conscription notice came). When I went back for a visit about 8 years later on my american passport (I also have an expired Israeli passport), I had no problems at all. My younger brother went back a few years ago and had no problems either. It is not worth their time to conscript a kid who is coming for a short visit or to learn for a year.
sms007,
Did they conscript him? He probably wated a day getting papers in order. They recognize the situation and aren’t interested in drafting someone from elsewhere that has no interest. It’s a beaurocratic counry, but chances are that kids would not even be noticed.
I know many good religious boys proudly protecting their people in the Israeli Army!
Hey guys. I need your help.I live in Canada already for almost 10 year, used to live in Israel only for 4 years and left to Canada. Now I am Canadian. I am male, 35 y old. I want to visit my parents in Israel but cant go due to the army obligations. Does any body knows how can i avoid being arrested in airport. lol. I was thinking to change my last name in my Canadian passport and go as a “turist”. Does any body knows if it will work? How would they know that Ive changed last name? any thoughts guys? Need help. Thanks in advance.
If you have an Israeli passport, I would suspect that you have to enter Israel on that passport (because you are an Israeli citizen). Did you try calling the Israeli embassy, or speaking with a lawyer who has expertise? They are **very** strict about people entering Israel who have not done their Army service, and I know people who were arrested at the airport. If you’re planning on keeping your yerida permanent, why don’t you just renounce your Israeli citizenship?
I heard Egypt is giving away citizenships preyty easy these days, maybe you would prefer their passport :)?
miami, thanks for your comment. I find it hard that we understand someone needs to protect the country, but it should be someone else. So many here are asking how to trick the system and not serve. Tefilos and hishtadlus, which is the army, protect your parents who made Aliya still there, they protect your Rebbeim, friends, our brothers and sisters. So why should do all the work on your behalf??
Would we be willing to have no one being drafted, and go back to 1940? give up the country?
Difficult question.
If it says on your passport that you were born in Israel, you will have problems, because you’re automatically a citizen. If it says US or Canada as a place of birth, you can often get through without any problems. Just hope that they don’t ask you if you’re an Israeli citizen!
Tefilos and hishtadlus, which is the army, protect your parents who made Aliya still there, they protect your Rebbeim, friends, our brothers and sisters.
The Yerushalmi in Chagigah perek alef halacha zayin suggests an alternate reason for the protection of “your Rebbeim, friends, our brothers and sisters.”
??? ???? ??? ???? ???’ ????? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ???????? ????? ??????… ???? ??? ???…????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ????. ?????? ??? ?????? ????. ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????, ??? ????? ??? ????? ????. ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????????
I for one am not worried about what would happen if no one is drafted.
I for one would be…I like that the IDF united Jerusalem in 1967 and I can go daven at the Kotel when ever I please…
?????? ??????? ?????, ?????? ??? ???-???????[??] ??????
Honestly though, how exactly should I understand your comment in light of the Yerushalmi that I just quoted?
I for one am not worried about what would happen if no one is drafted.
DHM, out of curiosity, do you live in Israel or Chu”l?
I for one would be…I like that the IDF united Jerusalem in 1967 and I can go daven at the Kotel when ever I please…
I would humbly amend this to ” . . . I like that the IDF with God’s help united Jerusalem in 1967 . . .”
take it for what it is…I’m happy the IDF united Jerusalem in 1967…nothing more nothing less
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