- This topic has 22 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 9 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Well, now that we at the threshold of the new bill being passed and after all the noise of the past weeks,did anyone out there actually read the bill? Well, I just did and it is unbelievable accomodating to the chareidi tsibbur. I have no idea why there ids opposition to it. Before you all attack me, please go and read the bill and then come back to argue about it!
Does it state that someone who refuses to serve in the army will not be subject to arrest, regardless of whether their refusal is based on the fact they are learning full time, or perhaps that their level of religious observance goes beyond the IDF’s willingness to accomodate, or on grounds that they hold that since zionism is contrary to halacha their service in the IDF is proscribed by Torah.
As I understand it, the army exempts some but not all yeshiva students, assumes that the army will accomodate religious practices (as is already the law, in theory), and totally ignores conscientious objection. Am I wrong?
can you provide the text or a link for the text (I can’t find it anywhere)
Really? You have no idea why there is opposition?
Do you just completely misunderstand the issues, or do you just pretend to?
popa_bar_abba: Anyone who believes that halacha is settled both as the establishment of the State of Israel being a mitsvah, and that the Dati Leumi/Modern Orthodox holdings on halacha are all correct (and anything more strict is just a humra), will be puzzled by the hareidi opposition. In all fairness, most of the Israeli leaders seem puzzled as well.
ROB: Seriously, who cares what it says? As long as it is not the status quo, it is a worse deal for Chariadim in Israel.
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, well that solves everything. Now it’s just at the defense minister’s discretion.
Why didn’t we think of doing that ourselves? If we just make it the defense minister’s discretion, then we don’t need to worry about anything.
Akuperma: Yes, if they are so narrow minded that they cannot imagine any other opinion.
Understanding that both the Tal law and this one are less than they are made out to be leads to the likely conclusion that the objection is not really about zionism, IDF, working, or shmad at all. It is about control. Who wields it, who yields themselves to it, who benefits from it, and how is it to be used. Control is useful, and moreover, for those who wish to place themselves under it, its their right to have others make decisions for them. But it should be transparent.
Is the whole issue because the state and the IDF want to eliminate chareidi life, or is it because Daas Torah, societal control and emunas chachomim is threatened by the potential choices individuals might make? Does it even matter which of these is the real reason?
I believe it matters. As I wrote above, people should be free to yield up their freedoms if they so choose. But they should do it with full knowledge of why, not because they have been scared into it.
So, chareidim don’t have to continue to live in poverty and they can go out freely to get a job.
1) Who says that the Charaidi establishment considers that to be a “better deal”?
2) I don’t see that at all. What Defense Minister will give a blanket Petur for all to work without first doing service?
from what i read (the first part) learning torah is a service to the state of israel
the part for daati/chareidim is confusing bc what does this entail if learning is service
ROB and others:
In that law are criminal sanctions if their quota of chareidim being shmaded in the IDF is not met. This alone is abominable.
And, again, even the prior “pitur” only exempted the lomeid from the army, but did not allow him to work and feed his family.
The bottom line is that the Zionists have to leave all the chareidim alone and not threaten them in any way.
ROB, your equation of the defense minister’s discretion with something practically being legal, is astounding.
rabbiofberlin: Discretion to a government official is fairly meaningless. So someone gets a job, and next election the discretion changes. As it is, most jobs outside of “informal sector” or the “hareidi economy” are closed to hareidim, and having revocable permission isn’t going to help. Its like saying “you can work as a temp, but that’s it”. A law prohibiting discrimination (rejected last year) would help.
And it doesn’t solve the threshold question of conscription which the Israeli courts have held is non-discretionary (absent a Basic Law to overrule the courts). If any hareidim are being thrown in jail for refusing to serve in the army (whether because they insist on learning full time, or feel the army discriminates and fails to accomodate them, or because they hold that zionism is contrary to Torah), then most hareidim will refuse to serve.
If the zionists were serious about compromise, the only sanction for hareidim refusing to serve would be loss of yeshiva subsidies and being treated like a Palestinian citizen in terms of welfare state participation. If they were serious about hareidim contributing to the “official” (on the books) economy, they would legislate that hareidim are able to work to the same extent as those Palestinians who don’t want to serve in the IDF, and pass an anti-discrimination law.
ROB,
please explain the front page article on arutz sheva if it is so good for the chareidim?
what im saying ROB is that if those things are in the bill then why would chetboun say its bad for lomdei torah bc they will be drafted in the army, if torah is considered national service then they wont
i wish there was the straight text of the law from the knesset so i could read it myself
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.