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DaasYochid: You know quite well that virtually through Shas and all halacha , all sinners are considered “letei-ovon” and not “le-hachis”. So, So, my point to Neuqiam is very valid.
“Neville, why do you only mention them. What about Rav Reines and Rav Kook? “
Because my point was in regards to you accusing people of libel for calling Zionism historically secular. I don’t think Herzl would have been too offended by people calling it secular. I’ll let you keep arguing that the state has become more religious or whatever, but don’t say Zionism is historically religious. Statements like that are the reason people are weary of sending their kids to state-funded schools. Let’s be honest, there were a lot more Herzls in the early Zionist movement than there were Rav Kooks…
Health,
1. So who is going to ticket them? A police office who is driving on Shabbat? Not to mention the fact that this will cause the driver to do more chillul Shabbat by stopping, starting, etc. Not to mention that it cause fatalities c”v people who are on missions of pikuach nefesh are stopped. Anyway, as I already posted, according to the Avnei Nezer this is not the government’s job.
2. You still have not answered my question. Would you sell a pen to a non-observant Jew?
3. Why are suggesting that I “jump on”? This is a very serious aveira. You are making yourself like the orchei din (see Mishlei 43:26).
ROB – Your posts are making less and less sense. Let’s say your right; all sinners are considered ‘leteiavon’ not ‘lehachis’. Would you call someone who doesn’t keep any mitzvos at all ‘religious’? Obviously not.
I don’t believe that you can’t understand a difference between someone whose ideologies and principles are in the right place but slips occasionaly, and someone who doesn’t keep entire parts of the Torah.
Health: As usual,your comments are nonsensical and totally unrealistic. You want the Israeli govt to ban driving on shabbos? You cannot even ban driving in Boro Park or Williamsburg- even by jews-and you want the Israeli govt to act like dictators? You do realize that the majority of Israelis are not religious, don’t you? Some things the govt can do, sone it cannot do. It cannot ban “bossor vecholov” in restaurants, it cannot ban driving on shabbos. You want to change this? Move to Israel and vote for the chareidim. At least, then, you would do some constructive things, rather than complaining from thousands of miles away.
the government could force stores to be closed on Shabbos (It can fine the store) , The , however it cannot stop driving (Because you dont know who is driving the car) nor can it stop people from eating Non-Kosher
Nor can the government stop Toeva, It cannot go into peoples bedrooms
The government COULD make pedestrian zones on Shabbos (Banning cars from some streets) It COULD fine stores for being open on Shabbos (It would have to fine all stores including non-jewish ones)
yekke2: My remarks were directed at the wish to write out of the jewish klal anyone who ever sins. And, yes, even a person who keeps very few mitzvos should never be excluded from klal yisroel. You may not call him “religious” but he is still part of the klal. Same with the government- even if it has failed to advance all of the halachic needs of the country-it still is a Jewish govt and should be treated as such, warts and all.
You know quite well that virtually through Shas and all halacha , all sinners are considered “letei-ovon” and not “le-hachis”. So, So, my point to Neuqiam is very valid.
Incorrect.
For example, a mechallel Shabbos b’farhesia is not the same as one who does b’tzinah. One believes in keeping Shabbos, but the yetzer hora gets the better of him, but at least there’s some embarrassment.
The mechallel b’farhesia is acting as if it’s not even binding on him, and in some ways has the din of a goy.
Ultimately, all aveiros are done l’teiavon,
??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???????
:??????? ?”?
but there’s a huge qualitative difference, with halachic ramifications, whether one is porek ol or simply an avaryan.
Avi K -“1. So who is going to ticket them? A police office who is driving on Shabbat? Not to mention the fact that this will cause the driver to do more chillul Shabbat by stopping, starting, etc. Not to mention that it cause fatalities c”v people who are on missions of pikuach nefesh are stopped. Anyway, as I already posted, according to the Avnei Nezer this is not the government’s job.”
If you bothered to read all my posts – I already answered this to ZD. They could set up cameras!
“2. You still have not answered my question. Would you sell a pen to a non-observant Jew?”
Why should I answer your questions? Do you pay me? I only respond to questions on the topic.
“3. Why are suggesting that I “jump on”? This is a very serious aveira. You are making yourself like the orchei din”
Again you’re being disingenuous! You jumped on American Yerushalmi about his comment on the Religiousness of the State of Israel. So why not jump on Simcha613 when he posted this:
“The Government of Israel is secular.”?
ROB -“Health: As usual,your comments are nonsensical and totally unrealistic.”
Stop talking to yourself!
“You want the Israeli govt to ban driving on shabbos?”
That’s Not what I want. I want Turkey to take over the country. To those that think Israel is a religious country – Israel should ban driving on Shabbos & Yom Tov!
“You cannot even ban driving in Boro Park or Williamsburg- even by jews-and you want the Israeli govt to act like dictators?”
Since when is the US run by Frum Jews?
“You do realize that the majority of Israelis are not religious, don’t you?”
I realize that! Do you “religious” Zionists realize this?
“Some things the govt can do, sone it cannot do. It cannot ban “bossor vecholov” in restaurants,”
It does, if it is under a Hechshair.
“it cannot ban driving on shabbos.”
If you want to call yourself religious, you can ban driving on Shabbos!
ZD -“The , however it cannot stop driving (Because you dont know who is driving the car)”
I already answered this! Why don’t you read my posts?
“Nor can the government stop Toeva, It cannot go into peoples bedrooms”
You can stop the parades!
Health
You said fine the people. I saw that
What if someone is not jewish and says I want to drive on Saturday. You advocate for them to be fined for driving on SHabbos event though they are perfectly allowed to
ZD -“What if someone is not jewish and says I want to drive on Saturday. You advocate for them to be fined for driving on SHabbos event though they are perfectly allowed to”
I answered that already! Why don’t you read my posts?
“Arabs don’t have the same license plates.”
And if they insist in driving a car with Israeli plates, & they get ticketed, then that’s their problem!
Health: your one comment disqualifies you from any reasonable discussion on anything.
“I want Turkey to take over the country”
FEH.
Health,
1. The cameras would only show that the car was driven. It would not show who drove it. What about rented, borrowed and stolen cars? In nay case, as I already posted twice previously, the Avnei Nezer says that it is not the job of the secular authorities (cf. Freddie Prinze’s super, Mr. Rivera).
2. The reward of having learned Torah is your payment. The witness will answer the question! Would you sell a pen to a non-observant Jew? Yes or no?
3. You were over on rechilut as I did not notice Simcha’s comment. You were also over on “b’tzedek tishpot amiteicha” as you did not presume that. Should we consider you religious?
ROB -“”I want Turkey to take over the country”
FEH.”
I’m pretty sure Jews are treated better there than in Israel!
Just ask the soldier who was charged with manslaughter, for doing his job.
Avi K -“1. The cameras would only show that the car was driven. It would not show who drove it. What about rented, borrowed and stolen cars? In nay case, as I already posted twice previously, the Avnei Nezer says that it is not the job of the secular authorities (cf. Freddie Prinze’s super, Mr. Rivera).”
That’s the chance the Goyim would take, by driving a Jewish license plate car on the Shabbos.
Does the Avnei Nezer say – you can make laws that allow Jews to drive on Shabbos?
Again you’re in dream land!
“2. The reward of having learned Torah is your payment. The witness will answer the question! Would you sell a pen to a non-observant Jew? Yes or no?”
I told you already – your question is off topic!
“3. You were over on rechilut as I did not notice Simcha’s comment. You were also over on “b’tzedek tishpot amiteicha” as you did not presume that. Should we consider you religious”
It isn’t Rechilus, because we all agree, even Zionists here, except for you, that the State isn’t religious! So stop dreaming.
Arabs and other non-jews (non jewish russians for example) who are citizens of Israel have the same license plate as jews
Its only Palestinians and live in the territories who are not citzens that have a different license plate
Alot of people who do not want to get married Halchically or cant marry halachically go to Cyprus or sometimes the Czech republic. It seems this cannot be easily banned either as Israel signed some international treaties allowing its marriages to be recongized in other countries so they have to recognize marriages performed in other countries even if they are against halacha
“I’m pretty sure Jews are treated better there than in Israel!”
Actually, Jews are currently strongly warned to avoid entering Turkey because it would be unsafe for them.
FYI Turkey is no longer conneted to Israel anymore , Either Lebanon or Syrian is in the way
There are very few places in the world where a country is sepereated by another country Kalingrad (Koningsburg) and Alaska and the only ones I can of right now
health,
1. I already posted the Avnei Nezer’s statement. The king (or the secular authorities) do not deal with chillul Shabbat. The fact of the matter is that there are laws regarding working on Shabbat. These are accepted and acceptable as labor laws. If you want to do something constructive volunteer for a kiruv organization.
2. That is related to your complaint about Shabbat desecrates being given drivers’ licenses. Stop stonewalling and answer the question.
3. You are obviously a tremendous am ha’aretz. Rechilut is Health telling Avi that Simcha said something which could cause a quarrel between Avi and Simcha.
ZD -“Arabs and other non-jews (non jewish russians for example) who are citizens of Israel have the same license plate as jews
Its only Palestinians and live in the territories who are not citzens that have a different license plate”
Let them rent a car from the territories. Otherwise – That’s the chance the Goyim would take, by driving a Jewish license plate car on the Shabbos!
ZD -“Alot of people who do not want to get married Halchically or cant marry halachically go to Cyprus or sometimes the Czech republic. It seems this cannot be easily banned either as Israel signed some international treaties allowing its marriages to be recongized in other countries so they have to recognize marriages performed in other countries even if they are against halacha.”
What does this have to do with the topic?!?
Sam2 -“Actually, Jews are currently strongly warned to avoid entering Turkey because it would be unsafe for them.”
I wasn’t talking about terror attacks, but how Jews are treated by their respective governments’!
ZD -“FYI Turkey is no longer conneted to Israel anymore , Either Lebanon or Syrian is in the way”
So let them take over Syria & Lebanon. Like it was in the Ottoman empire. The British and French did a bad job – giving them independence!
Children, fight nicely…
Health, there has been one major point that has been ignored. Let’s say, for arguments sake, Israel becomes a fully halachic country. Now, are we talking about halacha and minhag as per : Charaidi? Modern Orthodox? Yeshivish? Sfard? Yemini? Religious Zionist? I think peace between Israel and the Arabs would be easier
Health, by what right should gentiles be punished for riding on Shabbat? As for your post about Turkey, that really is a turkey. To be more exact, jive turkey.
So let them take over Syria & Lebanon. Like it was in the Ottoman empire. The British and French did a bad job – giving them independence!
Turkey has been struggling with refugees from lebanon and now from Syria and now you want them to take over those countries and have even more refugees?
Avi K-“1. I already posted the Avnei Nezer’s statement. The king (or the secular authorities) do not deal with chillul Shabbat.”
They can’t promote Chillul Shabbos, no matter what you say!
“The fact of the matter is that there are laws regarding working on Shabbat. These are accepted and acceptable as labor laws.”
Not nearly enough!
“2. That is related hto your complaint about Shabbat desecrates being given drivers’ licenses. Stop stonewalling and answer the question.”
No, it isn’t!
“3. You are obviously a tremendous am ha’aretz. Rechilut is Health telling Avi that Simcha said something which could cause a quarrel between Avi and Simcha”
There’s no Aveira because we’re anonymous! But you can post your real name.
LS -“Health, there has been one major point that has been ignored. Let’s say, for arguments sake, Israel becomes a fully halachic country. Now, are we talking about halacha and minhag as per : Charaidi?…”
It will never happen, until Moshiach comes!
ZD -“Turkey has been struggling with refugees from lebanon and now from Syria and now you want them to take over those countries and have even more refugees?”
Your made me laugh! 😀
They wouldn’t be refugees in their home countries!
The Western world has destroyed alot of the Arab world.
At risk of getting sucked into this increasing toxic cesspool, I’d like to address one narrow point…
Avi K:
Would you sell a pen to a non-observant Jew?
There is a factor that you have not addressed that I believe greatly impacts this question. If an irreligious Jew (or a religious one, for that matter) has no other way of doing an action that is contrary to halacha unless you help him, you are not allowed to enable him to do so. That would be mesaya li’yeday aveira. However, if the said person will be able to violate the halacha even if you do not help him, there is no issur of lifnei iver lo siten michshol.
mw13 – You are correct that there is a distinction between an issur that he can do with or without your assistance and an issur which he needs you to enable him to do. This is in regards to lifnei iver.
I believe that ‘mesaya liyeday aveira’ applies even when he has the capabilities, but you are making it more convenient for him.
However, this distinction is not unequivocal; in a situation where you are creating a ????? which wouldn’t exist otherwise, there is a problem of lifnei iver.
There are at least two sources for this: 1) Lending somebody money without proof of the loan is assur, because the borrower may deny the loan. 2) A father may not hit his older son, because the son may get angry and retaliate. The son can hit the father at any time, with or without the father’s instigation, yet it is assur because you are creating a situation of ?????.
This plays a role in issurim where the person wouldn’t do it [even if he has the capabilities to do so] without your involvement.
Health,
1. Make aliya and work for change instead of sitting in galut backbiting.
2. Yes it is.
3. So maybe none of us really exists. We are all the same person, maybe not even Jewish, who is doing this for fun. The Chofetz Chaim says (torah.org.il Laws of Rechilut 1:9 translation)
It is also forbidden to help one’s friend deduce who spoke or did something against him even without revealing the name of the culprit. Whether to speak more generally, so that only later will his friend realize the identity of the speaker, or if the friend knows what happened but does not know who did it, to give him hints so the friend will deduce who it was, is prohibited.
So it turns on how much chance I have of finding out who Simcha is.
MW & Yekke, if the person can use the object in a permissible manner there is no problem (see “Contemporary Halachic Problems” v. 4 p. 101-104 available on-line). It could be that the examples you gave, MW, are special cases because of the intense temptation.
Selling items that can be used B’heter is explicitly Muttar. These are Mishnayos in the 6th (7th?) Perek of Shevi’is.
Avi K: I don’t know who wrote the book you mentioned, nor if it reliable or not. I don’t consider myself well versed in Halachah. But does the fact that the object can be used in a permissible manner mean there is no problem even if you know the person is planning on using it for a forbidden use?
There are many Goyim in Israel so it is possible to marry GOyim while living there, secondly the Zionists are ACTIVELY trying to make the French Yidden frei like they did with the Yemenites. This debate is moot as all Rabbanim have made clear we need to steer of this atheist state, regarding hakaros hatov, how much hakaras hatov due to the Arabs in Israel who live 10 times better than their “brothers” in Gaza have to the Zionists? ZERO, so the Zionists should show us hakaras hatov for being the ones to maintain the mesora and not have toieva rights be the main agenda. Zionisms clock long expired.
yekke: Yes. These are B’feirush Mishnayos in Shevi’is. Ayein Sham.
Yekke, the author is Rabbi J. David Bleich (you can read the Wikipedia article on him yourself). In his article he quotes major poskim such as Rav Moshe. However, ain hachi nami, if he says “I want a pen for writing on Shabbat” you should not sell it to him unless he has a heter to write on Shabbat (e.g. he is a doctor). Howeevr, the mere fact that he is non-observant does not mean that he will use it b’issur. Maybe he will use another pen. Maybe before Shabbat comes in he will do teshuva.
Avi K -“1. Make aliya and work for change instead of sitting in galut backbiting.”
I would, if Turkey took over the Medina!
“2. Yes it is.”
You were so desperate for a rebuttal, so 2 other posters responded.
“3. So maybe none of us really exists. We are all the same person, maybe not even Jewish, who is doing this for fun. The Chofetz Chaim says (torah.org.il Laws of Rechilut 1:9 translation)”
Why don’t you grow up?
“It is also forbidden to help one’s friend deduce who spoke or did something against him even without revealing the name of the culprit. Whether to speak more generally, so that only later will his friend realize the identity of the speaker, or if the friend knows what happened but does not know who did it, to give him hints so the friend will deduce who it was, is prohibited”
Yes, I know the Halachah. I don’t have to think that you know each other. It’s a Rov.
ROB –
Just out of curiousity, at what point would you refrain from drinking a fellow Jew’s wine?
And would you similarly oppose the attitude of excluding members of Neturei Karta from the klal?
Here’s a thought – mods, would you consider blocking any part of Health or Avi K’s comments that address each other? Their juvenile bickering is getting out of hand…
yekke: R’ J. David/R’ Dovid Bleich was one of the major Talmidim of both R’ Moshe and R’ Soloveitchik and is a Posek and tremendous Talmid Chacham in Manhattan, and is respected by the entire world as such. (Although he is not a major Posek, and does not want to be, because he acknowledges that he has some… unique Shittos.)
health,
1. You and Erdogan make a nice couple. Actually turkey is very popular here although some claim that there is no messora.
2. In other words you could not think of one so you punted.
3. Why don’t you?
4. Several times when I pointed out to people that tey were over they told me thatt hey knew the Halacha. In other words, they were meizid.
Avi K -“1. You and Erdogan make a nice couple. Actually turkey is very popular here although some claim that there is no messora.”
You and Herzl make a nice couple. Btw, what happened to Uganda?!?
“2. In other words you could not think of one so you punted.”
Because you didn’t answer my point! Why is the Medina allowed to issue a license that includes Shabbos and Yom Tov?
“4. Several times when I pointed out to people that tey were over they told me thatt hey knew the Halacha. In other words, they were meizid”
I told already, it’s not Osser, because no one knows each other!
So stop being Megaleh Ponim Shlo K’halacha!
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