Is Zionism the Yetzer Hora?

Others would request you at least write “lehavdil” toch sloshim yom. Not to equate r”l this man-made festival with one divinely ordained.

Avi K -“Judicial review means that they can knock down a law.Thus the government cannot do whatever it wants. However, if no one objects than they do not get involved.”

OK. Why don’t they knock down the laws that let people have Gay parades & drive on Shabbos & Yom Tov?!?

Not like you, 147. I expected exact number of days, hours and minutes, and perhaps an original name for Yom Ha’atzma’ut. Not up to your usual standard!

Health, I know it’s difficult but please try to be precise. Their are no laws that “allow” them. There are also no laws that prohibit them. The Avnei Nezer in fact says (Yoreh Deah 319:50) that the secular authorities do not deal with aveirot ben adam laMakom but only aveirot ben adam l’chavero where necessary in order to maintain an orderly society:

????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????. ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????

Of course, the battei din of 23 would have jurisdiction but we all know how difficult it is to convict someone in a din Torah.

Yekke, absolutely. I already posted that the geula comes slowly in stages (Yerushalmi, Berachot 1:1).

Avi K -“Their are no laws that “allow” them.”

The stuff spouting from your posts – only another Zionist, like ROB, would believe!

Don’t they give out licenses for people to drive vehicles? An exception could be made for Shabbos. Don’t they give out permission for parades? They don’t have to give out for Toaivah parades!

Health, your lack of halachic knowledge mirrors your lack of secular knowledge. Giving a person a license to drive does not say that he can drive on Shabbat. That is his choice. Similarly, it is permitted to sell a pen to a non-observant Jew even though he will write on Shabbat. As for the parades, offensive as they are I do not according to the Avnei Nezer the only reason not to allow them is the need to close streets and greatly inconvenience people. Perhaps it would be better if no parades were allowed. On any case, I wrote that we are only on the path, not that we have arrived. I invite you to make aliya and vote for change. If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

The total ignorance by yekke2 and many others of our history shows that their opposition to medinat Yiroel is blind to any reasoning. From yekke2’s words, you would have thought that there was never a bad king or regime in our history. Did they ever learned TeNach? Did they ever read the neviim? In Bays rishon, there was rampant idolatry and other sinful behavior- yet there was no question of denying the jewishness of the Kings on both sides. Same in the time of bayis sheni and the descendants o the Hasmoneans. Go learn some of that history and see that ,whatever the religious status of the leaders, there was no denying the validity of the jewish state.

We may not yet be in full accordance with halacha but it is a lot better that under any other regime-and that includes Western overlords. You can always peddle your fantasies in some Jewish quarters but do not think that it is the truth.

Avi K:

I apologise for not seeing your response earlier, and yekke2, and myself on your other thread, have addressed it, but since I’d like a direct further response from yourself (I find in this kind of discussion, failing to request one invariably means you don’t get one, so no personal slight implied), I’ll make my point here clearly.

You try to quibble with the definition and application of the literal Shulchan Aruch, so, as a Torah Jew, which I assume you are, I’ll use the wider blanket term Halacha. This includes the various laws that we, as Torah Jews, adhere to on a daily basis, be it Shabbos, gneiva, toeivah, thins which have a clearer general consensus. Not that your distinction is a valid one, merely that it’s not the central issue here.

The State of Israel, as you acknowledged, does not keep to all of these. As you said, ‘Not yet’. So the honest answer to the question is No. I specifically requested a Yes/No answer in my previous posts, and suggested that if you then had to clarify, you could do so after your clear Yes/No answer, because I foresaw this kind of disingenuous response, but never mind that.

Furthermore, you wouldn’t consider a Jew who substantially kept Halacha a practising Torah Jew, you would rightly expect full adherence, which is what ‘keeping to Halacha’ means. You either do or you don’t. And you have admitted that they don’t.

And all that is even accepting that they ‘substantially’ keep to Halacha, and that they are moving in the right direction. Neither point is true. Substance is defined as a significant level, and if the Israeli Government is actively supporting toeivah and chilul Shabbos, there is obviously no substance, as it is not having a significant effect on the way the country is run. And recent moves by the Israeli Government with regard to Shabbos and conversion plainly show it is not moving in the right direction. And I haven’t even begun to address the often militantly secular nature of the State, from it’s inception through to it’s current prevailing attitudes, mainly because I don’t need to, my above points suffice.

Eagerly awaiting your response.

ROB: I deliberately did not get involved in the pro/anti Zionism debate. That debate is not objective; noone is going to hear or say anything new, the debate will circle and circle until the mods get so fed up of the insults going both ways and will close the threads. Both sides are set in their opinions, and will blindly deny the truths of the opposing side.

I simply pointed out the falsity in calling the State of Israel religious when Avi K decided that it is ‘libellous’ to consider the State of Israel irreligious. I never suggested it plays any role in the discussion.

The State of Israel are not ????? ???? ??????, Ergo a Chillul Hashem.

ROB – Where did I say anything about a requirement to have a religious leader? I just argued with Avi K and explained that the State of Israel is irreligious.

To answer the question of the OP:

“????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??????”

????? ??? ????? ???????? ??”? –

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=41396&st=&pgnum=7

yekke2: you did a lot more than just arguing about a name. Do re-read your posts and you will see that the hostility to Eretz Yisroel is palpable- you totally ignore the rel advances of yiddiskeit these past sixty years and you continue to denigrate the leaders-even those who have worked hard to advance Yiddishkeit in israel. I include the Agudah in those leaders.

I think you forgot what you asked.

NeutiquamErro, I see that I will have to explain the difference between a government and a state four hundred times. Governments run the state in accordance with the constitution (a.k.a. regime). They come and go, as sometimes do regimes (take an course on the political history of France). In fact, I heard (although I also heard it denied but that’s the way it goes)that when Rav Tzvi Yehuda said both Hallel and selichot on Yom HaAtzmaut that fell on Behab he said “Hallel for the State, selichot for the government”. The government is half a glass. Government offices are closed on Shabbat, yamim tovim and in most cases even Chol HaMoed. The IDF and other governmental offices have kosher food. Today teh YWN tells us that the observant Police Commissioner sold the Police Dept.’s chametz. The President (who is traditional and raised a storm when he called Reform avoda zara)and IDF Chief of Staff do the same. So far as promoting toeva is considered, there are several toevot. One of them is dishonesty in business (Devarim 25:13-14). Would you call an otherwise observant person who is dishonest in business “religious”? Should he receive an honor in shul? What about someone who refuses to give his wife a get? What about someone who has some other yetzer hara problem such as a bad midda (Rav Chaim Vital says that that is worse than a bad action and the Ran says in his Fifth Derasha that it is worse than an ideological errorr, which is why Avraham insisted that Yitzchak’s shidduch come from Lavan’s family and not from the Canaanites. Is there anyone (besides yourself, of course) whom you do not posel?

I also note that you did not respond to my point about IDF officer candidates.

This trend is mirrored in Israel society as a whole as reported in the Jerusalem Post.

Avi K -“As for the nature of the State, calling it extremely secular is libelous.”

I wrote -“An exception could be made for Shabbos. They don’t have to give them the license for Shabbos.”

The fact that they do – makes it more than secular! Shabbos is the main thing that separates us from Goyim. You’re the biggest proof what the belief in Zionism can do to you!

ZD -“Unless you are going to publically give Sikella, you cannot force people to keep Shabbos and some people will delibertatly disobey if you tell them to obey.”

Were you talking to me? If you were, no one said the State has to force e/o to keep Shabbos! I wrote – take away the driving license on the Shabbos.

I am not saying Israel strive for a religious state, Of course it should strive for it, but those who claim it isnt a relgious state ignore the realities of the population there who dont want a relgious state.

Charedim who wish for a Torah state should just have patience, their birthrate is much higher than the chilonim and at some point will be the majority. The chilonim will likely move into their own enclaves away from the charedi population

The Government of Israel is secular. One can argue it’s not even Jewish (an organization run by Jews but not according to halachah is probably not considered a Jewish organization- like a Reform Temple). But it’s still better than any other secular non-Jewish government would be. While many of the members don’t follow halachah, and the laws are not based on the Shulchan Aruch, many meta-communal laws are based on halachah- like Geirus and Marriage- which makes things a lot less complicated for frum Jews. And while it is not illegal to violate Shabbos, to my knowledge, the government itself doesn’t run on Shabbos, which probably limits a lot of the chilul Shabbos.

Not to mention that no other secular/non Jewish government over Eretz Yisroel would give as much money to Yeshivos as the current government of Israel does, and no other secular/non Jewish government would give all Jews a blanket right of return which facilitates massive fulfillment of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel.

Are there problems with the government? Of course. Is the secular government of Israel considered Jewish sovergnty over Eretz Yisroel? I have no idea. Does the government itself have any halachik or hashkafik significance? Who knows. But having this government over the Land of Israel, is better than any other Non Jewish government over the Land of Israel. And I think some of us need to take a step back sometimes and appreciate how great we have it.

Hodu LaShem Ki Tov, Ki LeOlam Chasdo.

So is ZD advocating violating Dina Demalchusa?

ROB: I’d rather not get into an extended discussion, since your earlier posts appear too nonsensical for me to even try understand, and that’s without requesting you punctuate your posts in manner that might make them at least partially legible. But I’ll happily respond to this one point, despite having already made this distinction several times extremely clearly.

A person committing an aveiro is not therefore irreligious. People slip from time to time. However, if a person is acting based on an ideology, and wilfully sinning as a result of this ideology, in an extreme example, somebody who is living and continues to live in a relationship with a goy (if that ‘extreme’ example is suitable to you), then certainly that person cannot be considered a practising Jew, even if they still keep many other mitzvos perfectly. Because they aren’t just sinning, they are rejecting the Torah ideologically and practically, and there is a world of difference between the two.

The State, too, by, for example, actively tolerating and promoting toeiva, is guilty of not just erring, but of actively rejecting Hashem and His laws. A few token motions do not negate this. And I’ve already made this clear.

Neutiqyam: My earlier responses were quite clear and only seem nonsensical to you but I digress.

To your main point-no, I do not agree with at all. Even if a person continues to transgress a specific “aveirah” it does not disqualify his “jewishness” Your reasoning is -again- an extreme example of the self-righteosness of chareidim today, without any understanding of human beings and their weaknesses.

Even your example is faulty. I have known a number of people who actually were in the specific situation that you describe yet they were not thrown out of the klal. Rather, they were nurtured until they re-entered the klal. To call everyone who commits an aveirah , even for a long time, a heretic and, by extension, throw that person out of the klal is the surest way of losing the bulk o our people.

Kal vachomer when we talk of a government that has to juggle many interests and pressure. It is always easy to criticize and throw the shells from the peanut gallery- it is quite different when having to tackle the concrete problems.

I’m not taking sides with either camp right now, but I want to clear something up…

When the Zionist posters say that the state has “historically” been religious, are you arguing that the early Zionists like Herzl (who supported banning circumcision) and Ben Yehudah were pro-religion?

If not, then can you really accuse the other side of “libel?”

Anti-Zionist posters: If the state had never happened, it would probably be a Muslim state. The British likely would have given up control either way. Seeing what happens when Muslim populations overthrow their kings and establish Islamic states, do you really think the Jews in the land of Israel would be better off with that?

If not, then can you really call it the yetzer harah?

Everyone: Do you actually think your posts will change anyone’s minds?

If not, then why are we here? Why am I posting this at midnight on a Monday?

Health, if you owned a stationary store would you refuse to sell to someone who might write on Shabbat? Would you take back his writing instruments if he did? FYI, there already is an incentive not to drive on Shabbat. Israel insurance companies give discounts to drivers who declare themselves shomrei Shabbat – and if they do drive they are not covered in case of an accident.

NeutiquamErro, how many times are you going to repeat that mantra? How many times will I have to explain the difference between a state and a government? As for your analogy between a person who commits abn aveira, in that case no one is religious (Kohelet 7:20). Indeed, Rav Kook (“March of the Camps”) decried these non-Jewish labels as they impede teshuva. The fact of the matter is that observance is a continuous distribution and always has been. How Hashem judges each individual is His calculation (see Rambam Hilchot Teshuva 3:1-2 and Rav Dessler, “Kuntras Nekudat HaBechira” in “Michtav MeEliahu”).

Neville, why do you only mention them. What about Rav Reines and Rav Kook? What about the fact that among the signers of the Declaration of Independence were Rav Maimon of the Mizrahi and Rav Levin of the Aguda?

I was about to make the mistake of making a detailed, logical and reasoned response to Avi K’s and ROB’s latest pontifications. But I’ve already done that numerous times, and I think I have been fair, consistent and thorough. I’ve kept it to two central issues, neither of which, unsurprisingly, have received anything with even a passing resemblance to a clear, direct answer. And if you don’t know what would consist of such an answer, perhaps, as I have repeatedly said, a Yes/No answer to a Yes/No question, particularly when the question is clearly posed, several times, with a request for such an answer. And I made it clear that such an answer should of course be elaborated on, but still be clear whether it’s positive or negative. But naturally, such simple requests have gone unheeded.

As for your latest ‘queries’, the answers to your questions have been said over and over again in my previous points (Including, if you need signposts, my concise and logical response to Avi K’s State definition quibbling, and ROB’s ridiculous failure to see the main point of my post, as already pointed out by DaasYochid). You are either unable or unwilling to see these points, or address them, despite them being as clear as day, so I see no further use in writing direct responses to waffle, especially when those responses will be ignored or blatantly misunderstood.

The responses to your above points are already contained in my earlier posts, and since you have failed to make any coherent or new points, my responses remain. If you have something that isn’t vile, pointless, waffle, pointless quibbling, incoherent and nonsensical, I’ll happily re-engage.

Yours sincerely, Neut

Avi K – This is a quote from Simcha613:

“The Government of Israel is secular.”

Why don’t you jump on him, like you did to American Yerushalmie?