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“Emails can be very short and sweet…”
If you call that ‘maintaining connection’, then fine.
” Why can’t we focus on the topic?”
Yes, political grandstanding is wrong when done by anyone.
Like I said above, Zionism, as an ideology, is basically dead. But don’t tell that to the anti-zionists. They need something to rally about.
“what do you guys say about the fact that the same Israel that purports itself to be the Jewish state…”
I’d rather call it a state full of Jews. The state uses the other appellation when politically expedient (including political grandstanding).
MDG: You speak in riddles. It is not a Jewish state? hmmm……did you know that there are many laws that are very specifically based on halacha? Did you know that the govt. of that “other appelation” gives hundreds of millions -yes, millions- of shekels every year to tens of thousands of anti- zionist jews? It is a Jewish state, whether you like to call it that way or not. The medinah does not need your “hechsher’ stamp. And, for good measure, Zionism is not dead at all.It survives in Maale Adumim, Kiryat Arba, Kiryat sefer, etc.etc…..and more of these yishuvim will b built, based on the original idea of Zionism, which is to settle Eretz Yisroel.
ROB -“health: defense lawyers are paid to get their clients off. Even if they are guilty as heck.”
First off, my statements are also true. Secondly, who said they would make up stories, just to get the defendants off? You’ll defend the Medina, No Matter What!
“Your last comment,about being better off under Turkey, again shows your incredulous imaginary world and your total lack of any reality check”
Your belief in the Medina shows you don’t care about Jews. How many Jews were killed in Israel in the last few weeks, & how many Jews were killed in Iran in the last few weeks?!?
health: this discussion will go on tit for tat and I don’t believe it serves any purpose. However, your last comment-about Israel and Iran- is so fantasmagoric that it left me speechless. So, you would prefer to live under Iranian rule……mm.does that even sound rational?
“MDG: You speak in riddles. “
It’s a political entity. As such it is concerned with its own perpetuation and growth. I’m not going to deny that the Medina does a lot of good.
But in my opinion, a truly Jewish state would do everything according to Torah and Daat Torah, whether that’s Rav Shteinman or Rav Dov Lior.
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” The medinah does not need your “hechsher’ stamp.”
I’m not trying to say good or bad. I’m just trying to define what I see. Actually, since the beginning, it’s been a dispute.
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” Zionism is not dead at all.It survives in Maale Adumim, Kiryat Arba, Kiryat sefer, etc…..which is to settle Eretz”
I meant the secular Zionism of Hertzel (and those who followed him), who envisioned Vienna in Jerusalem. That is dead. He also suggested Uganda.
ROB -“However, your last comment-about Israel and Iran- is so fantasmagoric that it left me speechless. So, you would prefer to live under Iranian rule……mm.does that even sound rational?”
I live in the US. My point about Israel & Iran is that Israel is Not a safe place!
The propaganda that Zionists’ have implemented are found completely false. EY was much better under the Ottoman empire.
MDG : thank for the elucidation. I may disagree but I think you.
health : “The ottoman empire”. Let’s see: Is that the empire that has not existed for a hundred years? or maybe it is the empire that captured Byzanrium in 1493? Your comments get more bizarre from dat to day….
Health: That is an absurd equation. Iran is far more dangerous for Jews and everyone knows it.
Here is an analogous statement to yours.
It is more dangerous to vacuum than to walk outside in a tornado, because more people died while vacuuming in Israel last year than from being outside in a tornado.
Do you know why? It’s because Israel doesn’t get tornadoes.
On a side note: Regarding the title of this post I remember a guy making a joke that Yom Haztmaut is gmetaria bitul Torah. If one does the math they indeed do equal each other ??? ??????? – ????? ???? both equal 668. Does this prove anything, I believe not.
Remember that thread, ” if you could be any tree, what would you be?”
Well, judging from the number of responses here that seem to be Satmar advocates, I’d say there would be a lot of date trees , in response to that question.
Funny thing though, Teitelbaum is a Date Tree, that sounds like a pretty Eretz Yisrael type of tree to me.
So, to me, it just shows that deep in the core of that tree, there is a very strong connection to the Eretz HaKadosh.
To achieve a true connection to that Aretz, one has to live there, and the connection to the Aretz, and the People(Am), and the Torah are the essentials of being a Jew. That is, in essence, what being a Zionists is, even if some of those who live in this Land are so estranged from their “core” that they can’t realize the essential three part connection, and ignore the Torah.
Haval, that those great ones, who are connected to the Torah part, sometimes also cannot realize the connection to the Aretz part, also essential.
Let’s pray that our connection to the Am will lead all factions to a true “Zionism” which will realize all the three essentials for being a true Jew, in every aspect.
HaKatan,
Stuff and nonsense. The Jews in EY were constantly at the mercy of some ruler’s whims. Just to give a few examples, Ashkenazim were forced to wear Sephardic dress as the Moslems would grab any Ashkenzai they could find for the debts on the Hurva synagogue. During the Peasants’ Revolt under Muhammad Ali of Egypt’s occupation, Jews were targeted in the 1834 looting of Tzefat and the 1834 Hebron massacre.
You can fulminate in denial all you like but the fact of the matter is that the establishment of the State of Israel has not only been a great blessing, and was greeted as such by almost all of the gedolim, as a restroation of national independence (see Rambam at the beginning of Hilchot Chanuka regarding the Hasmonian state, which after the first generation was largely controlled by the Tzaddukim) but, as Rav Soloveichik noted, pulled Am Yisrael out of the national depression that resulted from the Holocaust (which according to Rav Teichtal in “Em HaBanim Semeicha was caused by opposition to the return to EY brought about by the sin of the spies, a sin which apparently is still reverberating).
ROB -“health : “The ottoman empire”. Let’s see: Is that the empire that has not existed for a hundred years? or maybe it is the empire that captured Byzanrium in 1493? Your comments get more bizarre from dat to day”
And I thought you’re an intellectual. My Bad!
The Ottoman empire is called Turkey nowadays.
They should give it back to them – No more Israel!
Sam2 -“Health: That is an absurd equation. Iran is far more dangerous for Jews and everyone knows it”
Excuse me, Mr. Zionist, answer the question! “How many Jews were killed in Israel in the last few weeks, & how many Jews were killed in Iran in the last few weeks?”
“Excuse me, Mr. Zionist, answer the question! “How many Jews were killed in Israel in the last few weeks, & how many Jews were killed in Iran in the last few weeks?”
That is not a fair question. How many Jews live in Eretz Yisrael and how many Jews live in Iran? Furthermore, Why do more Jews live in Eretz Yisrael than in Iran???
Health: That’s not the point. I agree it’s more in Israel. It’s a dumb point because if there were more Jews in Iran (read: anyone who hasn’t been there for hundreds of years), more Jews would be killed in Iran. Iran is not safer for Jews.
More Chinese people were killed in China than in Israel last year. Does that mean that Israel is safer for Chinese? Or just that there are a lot more Chinese people in China than in Israel?
Queen: Health’s point is still valid even with your disclaimer. A larger percentage of Jews living in Israel were murdered or maimed for being Jewish than the percentage of Jews living in Iran.
Joseph: The Jews living in Iran are cowering in fear and careful not to do anything that will put them in danger. The Jews in Israel are going about there lives in a free country. Therefore, it is not a fair comparison.
Just to give you an idea of the population difference, there are around 30,000 Jews living in Iran today (according to google) and Lakewood alone has more than 90,000. The whole Jewish population in Iran is 1/3 of Lakewood.
If the Jews are having it so good in Iran, why are there so few of them left over there?
There are Lies, Darn Lies and Statistics
…………………………………..Mark Twain
Joseph, Iran is a tightly controlled totalitarian state. No one is killed without official permission. Is this the kind of state in which you want to live? If so, all you have to do is join the US Navy and ask for asylum after you are captured.
Sam2 -“Health: That’s not the point. I agree it’s more in Israel. It’s a dumb point because if there were more Jews in Iran more Jews would be killed in Iran. Iran is not safer for Jews.”
No, it’s a valid point. You’re so blinded by the Medina – that you can’t see the Truth!
“More Chinese people were killed in China than in Israel last year. Does that mean that Israel is safer for Chinese? Or just that there are a lot more Chinese people in China than in Israel”
Your point is dumb! I’ll rephrase my point – a lot of Jews have been killed recently in Israel, because they’re Jewish. Not a lot of Jews, as a matter of fact, IDK if any Jews were killed recently because they’re Jewish!
Queen -“The Jews living in Iran are cowering in fear and careful not to do anything that will put them in danger.”
You hit the Nail on the Head! We Jews, wherever we are, should live in fear of G-d.
“The Jews in Israel are going about there lives in a free country.”
Yes, most of the Jews living there are Frey. Do you know what Frey means? It means they have No obligations to Hashem!
OK Health, you win. Iran is a better place to live. Why aren’t you moving to Iran? They aren’t killing Jews there.
Health didn’t say Iran is safer than America. Regarding your previous comment to me, the Jews in Israel live in constant fear of war and terrorist attacks.
Joseph: True. Nevertheless, if given the choice to live in Iran or Eretz Yisrael, which would you choose? and why?
Eretz Yisroel is Eretz HaKodesh, how is that even a debate?
The point is that to argue that living in Israel is physically safer than elsewhere Jews live, is a factually incorrect argument. Compared to most places that have significant numbers of Jews (US, Canada, UK, Australia), Israel statistically has more risks of anti-Jewish attacks, killings and wars than such anti-Jewish attacks elsewhere. (Now wait for Avi to start murkying this with stats including inner city and drug crimes from places and types of events that have few Jews.) And the big Zionist lie that Israel will serve as a safehaven in the future if there’s risk elsewhere is also a fallacy. Who is to say that it won’t be the Jews in Israel running to other countries if the risk there becomes unbearable?
To all ; SIGH……As expected, this thread is again falling into the same pattern….joseph,health and their ilk see only the bad in eretz yisroel, the rest is trying to change their minds,to no avail. So,I will not try either. However, I will point out the mendacity of joseph and health trying to tell us that jews are safer outside of israel or under arab-even turkish-rule. The first part-safety outside of israel- is obviously wrong if you look at history. Only seventy five years ago, six million Jews were murdered “outside of israel” Before that, for many centuries,jews were killed,banished, expelled from a multitude of countries -try Russia, France, Spain,etc-“outside of israel”. just because right now, there is a lull in killing Jews “outside of israel’ does not mean it will continue forever. This is why the Zionists wanted out of Russia and build their own country, so they can defend themselves As far as the assertion that Jews would live better ndr turkish or arab rule-this is such bizarre notion that it needs no rebuttal,it is just plain insane.
ROB -“there is a lull in killing Jews “outside of israel’ does not mean it will continue forever. This is why the Zionists wanted out of Russia and build their own country, so they can defend themselves As far as the assertion that Jews would live better ndr turkish or arab rule-this is such bizarre notion that it needs no rebuttal,it is just plain insane.”
The only thing that’s Insane – is the notion is that the Medina will solve all our Jewish problems!
IDK why we have such a hard Golus, but sometimes we need a strong Potch. After the Holocaust it would be ideal for e/o to do Teshuvah, but what happened is that the Zionists used it for their advantage!
Maybe you’ll start thinking into my posts & stop being such a terror to the Anti-Zionists.
ROB:
How dare you conflate your idol with “Eretz Yisrael” and accuse Health and others of “seeing only the bad in E”Y”? CH”V.
Health and others very clearly distinguished between the land and, liHavdil, your idol of Zionism.
ROB:
While everyone is entitled to their own opinions, that is not the case with facts. The Zionists started Zionism for the simple reason that they wanted to be accepted by the gentiles as part of their club. This is fact.
Read the Holocaust literature: the Zionists admit that Zionism was and is the greatest value above all else, including above saving lives. The Zionists have intentionally and otherwise, and admittedly so, endangered and forfeited Jewish lives in WW II and in Israel, Zionist lies and propaganda not withstanding.
Zionism has been an absolute disaster for the Jewish people. Zionism is idolatry and heresy, and the Zionists have no answers.
“Compared to most places that have significant numbers of Jews (US, Canada, UK, Australia), Israel statistically has more risks of anti-Jewish attacks, killings and wars than such anti-Jewish attacks elsewhere.”
This is at present a FACT unfortunately.
“Only seventy five years ago, six million Jews were murdered “outside of israel” Before that, for many centuries,jews were killed,banished, expelled from a multitude of countries -try Russia, France, Spain,etc-“outside of israel”
True. However right now, the facts on the ground are such that there are countries outside of Israel that have less terror than Israel. If you put aside for a minute your “beliefs” and think purely about safety, you are less likely to be looking over your shoulder walking down Avenue USA or Canada than Ave Jerusalem. It is the unfortunate truth, whatever side of the great divide you belong to.
To all the galuti Jews here: it is time to come home! Every second you are outside Eretz Yisrael you are mevatel the mitzvah of yishuv haaretz and the mitzvot hatluyot baaretz, not to mention that all the remaining mitzvot have only true meaning when practiced in E.I. Finally, anyone dwelling outside E.I. As if he has no G-d, chas veshalom. Briderlekh aheim! Israel is once again the centre of Torah and b’ezrat Hashem will soon be a true Torah society. The demographic growth proves this. The hilonim will make teshuvah sooner than you think!
HaKatan, more nonsense. In fact, if not for the British the Zionists would have been able to get out all of the Jews in Germany who would have been willing to come as well as large numbers of Polish and Romanian Jews. Up to almost the beginning of WW2 all three countries were only interested in expelling their Jews but there was no place to which to expel them. This led to the victory of the faction in the Nazi party that saw Zionism as part of a plot for world domination over the faction that saw it as a movement for separating Jews and gentiles.
EV -“To all the galuti Jews here: it is time to come home!”
We’ll come home when Moshiach comes! Until then the Zionists make living there impossible!
Health, HaKoton and Joseph: the unholy trinity. I am not going to bother to answer their fantasmagoric and untrue assertions.
To “TheQueen”, a new member of the unholy club: What you write is irrelevant. The jews of Hungary were safe for most of WWII.As a matter of fact, many jews from other threatened countries fled to Hungary. And you should know what happened in June of 1944 and afterwards. So, just because it is peaceful now is no guarantee of anything. Only in Israel can the Jews defend themselves-as they are now!-and this is why living in Israel gaurantees jewish survival while living elsewhere can change on a proverbial dime.See France. See Iran (after the Shah). See Sweden.
There isn’t anything we can do about what happened in the 1930s and 1940s. Neither can we do anything about the motives of people long dead. Welcome to year 2016. What will you do today to make the world a better place to live in? Inside or outside of Eretz Yisrael.
rob: There is no guarantee there will be peace in Israel anytime in the future, prior to Moshiach. Israel could find its sovereignty at risk of fall. Or c’v in the line of a catastrophic WMD.
rabbi: “To “TheQueen”, a new member of the unholy club:”
I will thank you for not affiliating me with any clubs. I have merely stated the facts as they stand today. I know very well what happened in Hungary, my family was decimated on Shevuos together with the rest of the yidden of Hungary.
That doesn’t change the fact that my Sisters in Israel are afraid to go to Main street in Jerusalem to do their shopping for fear of being stabbed. And I am not saying this out of ideological convictions. I don’t belong to Satmar.
rabbi:”What you write is irrelevant.”
I don’t think it is irrelevant to people who have lost their lives or loved ones to terror in the past few months. I am not having an ideological debate here. I am talking basic safety.
The Queen: May i first retract my assertion of putting you in any club. Apologies for the initial comment.
As far as your other comments. Do you realize that French jews -700,000 of them!- are afraid to wear a yarmulka in the street? Are you aware that jews in Norway and sweden are afraid to walk the streets because of the many Arab migrants? You may live in the US but the US is not the world.
And your sisters in Israel probably have a worse chance to be killed in an car accident than being stabbed by an Arab. I don’t minimize the gravity of the present mini-intifada but let’s put it into perspective. And, of course, the assailants have been killed,something that will not happen in the rest of the world.
“the present mini-intifada but let’s put it into perspective.”
Perspective? The State of Israel has been in an ongoing, unending, state of war and terror since its founding in ’48.
That’s 67 years and counting.
Joseph : hmmmmm…let’s see…churban second bais hamikdosh, hundred of thousands killed….two thousand years ago…crusades, hundreds of jewish communities annihilated…one thousand years ago…..spanish expulsion,hundreds of thousands of jews expelled…five hundred years ago….chmielnicky, tens of thousands of jews killed….four hundred years ago…..russian pogroms, thousands of Jews killed…two hundred years ago….the Holocaust, six million jews murdered…seventy years ago…..
we’ll take the last 67 years in Israel…especially as we can defend ourselves…
The State is another churban in that long list of churbans you listed that we endured in golus.
Difference is, it’s a spiritual one.
Zionism is a massive physical churban, too.
The Zionists successfully lobbied governments AGAINST allowing Jews during WW II in to their respective countries.
The Zionists, who claimed to and were given to represent world Jewry for around a century, considered Zionism to be the greatest priority over everything including Jewish lives, and therefore insisted that Jews somehow get to Palestine or suffer their fate by the Nazi mass murderers.
Think about that for a minute, especially given their lies about being protectors of Jews. With friends like that…
Besides for the spiritual cause of the Holocaust, the Zionists very much did their physical share, too, including what was mentioned above. The motto of Zionism during WW II was “rak beDam tihye lanu haAretz”, and that meant Jewish blood.
Zionists today would be wise to avoid WW II in their attempted defense of their idol.
And the inflammation of the Arab world is also a physical problem of the State, not “only” a spiritual one.
Zionism has been and is a uniquely disastrous calamity for the Jewish people.
Joseph, Rambam says the opposite about the Hasmonean state. Kal v’chomer our beloved medina.
Perhaps people will not see Zionism and Medinat Israel as something so bad if they don’t see it as the ultimate “start of the redemption,” but rather as a means that H’ has of getting all the Jews to EY.
Those, who really are anatagonistic to the idea of a Jewish State, could see it as something like the Expulsion from Spain, a step towards our eventual redemption.
Those, who think of the State as something positive, could stiil wait and pray for a gradual process by which the State becomes more religious.
Either way, who’s to say that Jews living together and trying to (usually) protect one another, and having a home where Torah and mitzvahs can be performed in their proper place, and maybe even hastening the redemption, is something SO BAD?
Health, what does “Zionists” even mean now? You may have to clarify the term. We have here hilonim, traditional, dati leumi, hareidi (litai, chassidi) and anything in between. Any one them can be proud and patriotic of their country or ashamed and hateful. Most hilonim are “post-Zionists” now, not “Zionists”. The set the process in motion, but their role is decreasing, as their percentage in the general population decreases. It is likely in 50 years there will be a religious majority just through natural growth. Torah and the yeshot are thriving. Yes, they have financial problems, but the level of Jewish literacy and learning is higher than ever. In my shul, I can count a few people who DON’T learn the daf yomi on one hand, everyone else does. If 100 years ago one could claim that the new yishuv was against yiddishkeit, this is no longer the case – there is no better and easier place to be a frum Jew.
Read the end of the Kuzari, and it will clarify your vision. What is the excuse for staying in the tumah of Eretz haamim once one can make a safe journey to Eretz Israel, the land under direct hashgacha from Hashem, which he watches from the beginning of the year until its end? Worst of all, you are falling in the trap of the meraglim and issuing a dibah over the land, has veshalom. Aloh naaleh!
Finally, the majority of the Jewish people will be in the land of Israel within a decade, for the first time since the expulsion of the 10 tribes over 2500 years ago. This will be a halachic game-changer. Yes, we are waiting for Mashiach, but perhaps the Mashiach is also waiting for us.
This message is written in Motza”sh in Eretz Israel).
“What is the excuse for staying in the tumah of Eretz haamim once one can make a safe journey to Eretz Israel, the land under direct hashgacha from Hashem, which he watches from the beginning of the year until its end? “
Being in Eretz Yisrael is arguably not safe. I know people who cancelled trips to Israel due to the matzav.
Can you please point me to where it says in the Torah that Yidden are mechuyav to live in Eretz Yisrael before Mashiach comes?
I think that the pro Israel and Anti Israel factions can agree that Shalom will hasten the Geula and not endless debating over who is right.
It doesn’t matter who is right. Ailu VeAilu divrei Elokim Chaim (if you are listening to the views of your daas Torah.)
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