Is YU officially a modern-Orthodox institution?

Many rabbonim in shuls across America have Semicha from RIETS.

Idk if this is a troll thread

1) it bashes a segment of klal yisrael

2) this is the OP’s first post

(The OP had his account for a month and a half though)

I think what they have done is terrible.

But you completely mischaracterised what they did. They replaced it with a new club which is said to help the members adhere to Halacha.

I do not condone and have many, many objections to this and many things they have done. But you can’t misstate the facts.

You think thats bad !

YWN often advertises for Guard your eyes.
A “club” that supports people struggling with shemiras einayim, and other aveiros that the Zohar tells us are worse than murder.

Reportedly it has haskamos from such Institutions as Ner Yisroel, Lakewood clearly modern orthodox

Ubiq – that’s a normal yatzer hora, and it’s something every jew faces, especially in this era. It’s also anonymous, and there’s no chance of triggering each other.

An in-person club, even if its stated purpose is to help people cope, is a chilul Hashem due to the abomination of those issues, which are a perversion of nature, and it also facilitates meetings of such people, which to put out mildly, will not be there to merely support one another.

They’re also promoting non-discrimination. Which means if one student acts abominably in front of others, and they express their revulsion, they are the guilty ones, because they’re bullying ot discriminating.

YU is literally Modern Orthodox since Modern Orthodox, unlike Yeshivish, has an actual organization with YU taking up a massive percentage of its head. Whether or not they are frum is a different discussion.

The Yeshivish community has written them off decades ago, I’m not sure what sort of association you expect from them.

As for their “Chaveirim Kol Yisroel” club, I don’t see this as any different than the club that existed in Cordoza for the last several decades.

The language they used in setting it up basically states that it’s a support group for men that don’t have tayvas nashim, or women that don’t have tayvas anashim, and how to live a frum lifestyle with that. Which is fine, I guess, assuming they stick to the charter. Obviously, I’m not stupid and I know that they will be hosting talks, publishing media, and holding events that go against halacha. But until that point, and until RIETS officially endorses such activities, we have to be dan l’kaf zechus.

“that’s a normal yatzer hora, and it’s something every jew faces, especially in this era.”

Yet, it’s interesting how the frum world treats it as some addiction with therapy and special programming to help people who are involved in shmutz on the internet.

Avirah – as always when you get to MO topics, try to keep your hate focused where it belongs. It’s necessary to hate distortions of Torah and people who speak out against what Hashem wants from us but to be so hateful about the things that you have decided in advance that they are going to do in the future? well that is actually wrong. And it brings motive of your other complaints into question. You are not doing Hashem any favors.

“Is the OP officially a troll?”

CS: Actually, officially a jerk. I stopped reading his rant when I got to the part about “women learning gemorah is bad enough”,

Avira
“that’s a normal yatzer hora, and it’s something every jew faces,”
speak for yourself, just because you struggle doesnt mean all do.

And what a strange claim, so the struggles you have are real struggles that warrant organizations and support. but other people who struggle aren’t entitled to support?

What a gross perspective,. Nay, an abomination!

Ubiq – take it up with rav moshe who says explicitly that in
Igros Moshe Orach Chaim vol 4 teshuva 115.

I love how people can say that the gadol hadors perspective is gross….makes me chuckle for a minute…then the chuckle turns into sadness at the abject spiritual poverty in the fabric-wearing community.

“I love how people can say that the gadol hadors perspective is gross…”

Rav Moshe says not to help those struggling with mishkav zachor?
in fact the opposite.
He offers support to the fellow struggling., and writes a letter ( just as long as to the other more natural struggles in the next teshuva)
OF course that letter was written almost 50 years ago
Attitudes and perspectives change. See R’ Aron Feldman’s letter written more recently

you must have another printing of Ig”M. I’m not sure what part of the the “gadol hadors perspective” you beleive I called gross
OR were you referring to yourself as the gadol Hador?

UJM
“ubiq: How many men do you know that lack a Yetzer Hora for women?
I dont think many.
why?

Ubiq, that’s putting your words in my mouth. I never said people who suffer from that YH shouldn’t get support. I never said that they’re bad people. Youre the one who equates having a public, in person, open support group with “being supportive”. It is both a chilul Hashem, as the matter is a disgusting abomination, as well as counter productive, because it sill facilitate the meeting of people who otherwise might have been “closeted”

Rav Moshe is extremely supportive of such an individual who wants to serve Hashem but has a YH to be a deviant “lehachis” person, as rav Moshe calls it. Rabbeim have been helping people like this for decades; it’s nothing new.

Rav Aharon Feldman is entitled to his opinion; it doesn’t mean that we disregard Rav Moshe. Rav Moshe, along with any other gadol, had a world-view shaped entirely by the Torah they learned and internalized. Rav Feldman may have had othet reasons for the language he used – he’s trying to hold off Open orthodox and far left MO from uprooting the torahs stance on toevos altogether. According to Rav Moshe himself (!) one is allowed to bend the truth in such circumstances.

Igros Moshe (Y.D. 3:115): When the manuscript was sent to me I saw in it another matter. The wicked had intended to weaken the prohibition of homosexuality. First of all by raising the question as to why the Torah prohibited it. This itself is a great evil and it weakens the prohibitions to the wicked with this disgusting lust. In fact it is one of the greatest abominations that even the nations of the world know that it is an incomparable abomination. Therefore there is no need for any rationale to explain why it is an abomination that the whole world despises. The world already holds that the transgressors of this sin are disgusting and are not members of civilization at all. So when a reason is sought for this prohibition, this removes the obscenity from it. It removes the embarrassment, shame and disgrace and completely downplays the seriousness of this issue. Furthermore the answer – given in this manuscript to this question – is that the prohibition is in order to ensure that men will marry women and fulfill the obligation to have children. This further diminishes and weakens the prohibition. It is equivalent to saying that there is in this issue no sexual prohibitions at all but that the reason is just to ensure observance of the positive command to reproduce – which is not viewed as important by the world. These views are prohibited to publish. just as if they were outright heresy, since they represent a view which is contrary to the view of the Torah…

You took one line and wrenched it out pf context. He’s saying that “even” goyim understand it. What if he were talking about murder and said that even goyim understand it, and we lived in a society where murder became tolerated? Would you say “things changed” from that time, or would you bemoan the fact that the world had changed so drastically from what the Torah wants even for goyim?

“There is no such thing as a homosexual or a heterosexual person. There are only homo- or heterosexual acts. Most people are a mixture of impulses if not practices.”

-Gore Vidal

Ubiq, you’re reducing morality to relativism.

Let’s break this down: causing harm to others is something that was and is accepted as bad by the world and by the Torah. The motions of (insert italics) what causes that harm (end italics) will be based on our best knowledge, and can be mistaken. It can also be relative to the times, because something considered hurtful 100 years ago today might be considered by the people who are being affected as harmless. Those are fluid; almost everyone referred to black people as “negros” in the 19th century, not in a pejorative. Today that is offensive.

What is not flexible, is the morality of the issue itself. It was and always is immoral to cause someone harm. Whether or not abuse always caused this level of harm, or whether or not people were aware of that reality (or your case of smoking) does not impact the value under discussion, namely harming others.

Homosexuality, however, is a moral issue in itself. It’s a specific sin, but it is under a larger category of perversions that are included in the 7 mitzvos bnei noach, as they are intended to be appreciated logically for their evil.

Rav Moshe is saying that goyim typically understand this; it’s part of our moral compass. The fact that we live in a depraved time when people don’t understand that doesn’t change our approach ideologically to the sin. What the Torah calls a perversion or abomination remains such. That means we are to be disgusted by it for all times. It’s not relative any less than the halacha its attached to is.

Lemosh, according to your view, if we live in a society where murder is acceptable when it’s, let’s say, in a duel, are we to say that while it can’t change the halacha that states that one may not kill another, we need to adapt our intellectual approach to murder in light of the society we live in? Are we to say that murder is any less evil in that society, but alas, we are anusin mipnei hadin and must maintain our policy of not murdering?

The Torah punishes toeva being immoral as the person must have the ability to change otherwise, there is no bechira and it cannot be punished.

Reb E, there is bechira in not committing toeva the same way there is bechira in not committing any other averah, moreso by sexual prohibitions where chazal say ain apotropus learayos.

Ubiq: GYE works too help those with the nisoyon of the aveiros they deal with OVERCOME AND STOP doing it. Is this YU group trying to help homosexuals STOP ENGAGING IN HOMOSEXUALITY?

YES OR NO?

Ubiq – nice try in attempting to evade your moral relativism when it’s clearly pointed out. I said it’s a chilul Hashem because it’s an abominable YH, it’s not something that should be discussed in the open. It’s more insidious than niuf, as Rav Moshe writes.

You then attempted to say that Rav Moshe’s Torah is relative to how goyim in his time viewed toevos. You compared it to smoking.

I said that the fundamental difference between those two is that one is a metzius example of the general moral value of guarding one’s health, likewise covering up child abuse to protect a yeshiv is one example of harming another. People can do things that they’re not aware violate their values and they’re not considered as having violated that value(though there definitely is a measure of culpability in the latter, just not to the degree that people think)

The value of toeva being a toeva that is meant to be reviled by the entire world(as it’s one of the 7 mitzvos) means that it’s not relative at all. It shouldn’t matter what any goyim say or if they change their opinion.

You then want to return to your starting point of “why is this different from any YH”

It’s different because it’s abominable. Niuf is unfortunately part of the normal, not perverse mindset of bosor vedam. Toeva is not. It needs to be identified as such, as Rav Moshe did.

Again, how would you feel if YU made a support group for people who are attracted to children? Do you think a yeshiva is a place for that?

Also, my other point of the club being a facilitator of toeva, as boys are discovering who else is like them…no one has addressed.

Whatever benefits are expected to be from this “group” can be accomplished in private, where such discussion belongs.

Avira, not sure why are you asking me about what R Moshe knew, I am not an expert on him. But as long as you asked, r Moshe in the teshuva you quote writes that even reshayim do not have this taava but react to it being prohibited (by Torah!?). I am not sure how to understand it, as this aveira was historically popular among nations who did not prohibit it. Maybe he means among Jews (there is indeed halakha that a man can not sleep near a male non-Jew, but can near a male Jew) or in our generation/ culture. Maybe he is simply looking here for words that will affect, but not offend, the LW.

To answer the title, YU is officially a treif institution.

Still not explaining why an in person club won’t facilitate illicit relationships