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If a guy works and and also learns a little and is considered to be a religious guy, is there anything wrong if he wears jeans?
Implicit in your title and question is the idea that modern=wrong.
Please define “modern” and then we can begin to analyze the question.
The Wolf
How about wearing sandals every day with a Rock N’ Roll T-Shirt?
Two threads on jeans in one day. Is this pick on people who wear jeans day?
There’s nothing wrong with wearing jeans, its just not considered yeshivish.
Ok I know I’m going to get beaten up like I did in the other thread, but I must make my opinion heard. Here goes: I dont beleive in any of this nonsense about clothing “making” you frum or not. I don’t beleive that we should put on a show,we are who we are and thats that. I DO beleive that clothing should be modest and cover what needs to be covered, it shouldnt attract attention. As for jeans or a jean skirt, well thats just the material,I dont think it should matter. If you are a decent,G-d fearing Jew who does the best you can and you wear jeans,them I envy you. You are doing better then most. We shouldnt look at people differntly because of what they wear. We should learn to look INSIDE the person because thats what matters most. I dont think after 120, Hashem is going to say oh,he/she couldve gone into Olam Habah but because they wore denim I cannot allow them in. Its what you DO. Not what you wear. Granted,when you dress like a shlump,you may be tempted to act like one, thats a different argument. If I can manage to do what I need to do and so can my husband who wears jeans,goes to shuirim,davens w/a minyan and is a G-d fearing person, then I dont think it should count for or against anyone. (For the record, hubby only wears khakis,not jeans,just because he doesnt like how they feel-they are very rough,but he doesnt not wear them for “religious reasons”)
Speaking of khakis,thats also in the same ballgame as jeans no,because it also not “yeshivish”, no?
So I dont think it should matter what you look like on the outside. Aslong as your are tzanua,and not like measure for measure,like the skirt is right under the knee. Imean really in the taam of tznius. And a man doesnt have to be dressed in black and white either. He should liook like a yid,w/his yarmulka on,and he should look neat and presentable. I dont think denim by itself is untznius or unyeshivish.
“The apparel oft bespeaks the man.”
Modern? Jeans have been around longer than fedora hats!
automatically think the person is more modern (I guess you can say less religious in their eyes)
In what way does “modern” mean less religious. You’re using a computer to type these posts. I presume you have no problem using automobiles, CD players (assuming kosher content, of course), microwave ovens, GPS devices or cellular telephones (with or without texting, internet, etc.).
Does the use of these of these “modern” devices make one “modern?” And, if not, what is it that is “modern” about those whom you perceive to be less religious (and how do you define “less religious”)?
I’m not trying to put you “on the spot,” Miamigirl, but I really would like to have these terms defined… at least as you perceive them (since you were the one who asked the question).
So if there is a girl/guy that wears jeans, should this stop a shidduch from continuing because its not the standard of a religious person even though some do?
That’s a completely different question than asking if something is wrong with it. There are perfectly legitimate reasons to not continue with a shidduch even for things that are perfectly moral and otherwise acceptable.
The Wolf
How is it that the #1 and #2 threads in the coffee room both have to do with jeans?
as i psted on the other thread. its more important to know whats inside the packaging —midos, character, kindness , etc. instead of only looking at the wrapping paper—suit, slacks or jeans
Modern? Jeans have been around longer than fedora hats!
I like.
On a totally unrelated note, so has the custom of singing Adon Olam after daveining.
miamigirl613
Is this what we’ve become, arguing about jeans and if they make you more relegious…O Brother!
My son is MO! He loves to sing adon olam on the bimah.
Fine.
Your clothing (unless the clothing is a religious article) does not make you any more or less religious. Your performance of the mitzvos (and the degree to which you perform them) makes you more or less religious. To my understanding, there is no mitzva in the Torah to wear Jeans, not wear Jeans, wear a streimel, a kapata, to not wear them, etc. As such, whether or not you wear these objects does not make you more or less religious.
Certain groups may have varying customs with regard to dress, but that’s a separate issue — no one would argue that the yeshivish crowd is “less religious” than the chassidic crowd because they wear different clothing, right? You might infer membership in a group based on clothing, but it does not (and cannot) identify your degree of religiousness.
Personally, I think we’ve all become spoiled in this regard living in modern (no pun intended) urban settings and largely holding office jobs. I’d bet dollars to donuts that when we held largely agricultural and craft jobs, we wore the cultural equivalent of jeans day in and day out — no matter how religious you were.
The Wolf
mike and charlie hall,
Can you honestly say that, in modern Orthodox settings you have encountered, you have never heard a disparaging comment about the “black hats”? I know I have.
I hear what you are saying, that we risk focusing too much on externals, and I agree. I do not think the problem can be dumped at the feet of one particular group, however.
Avram in MD. “
Can you honestly say that, in modern Orthodox settings you have encountered, you have never heard a disparaging comment about the “black hats”? I know I have”
Yes I have, usually in regards to the silly things discussed in this post IE Do wearing jeans make you less religious or is it OK to have a day job etc…you get the point
Yes I have, usually in regards to the silly things discussed in this post IE Do wearing jeans make you less religious or is it OK to have a day job etc…you get the point
And do you point out how wrong it is for those people to group other Jews into categories of thought based on the way they dress (e.g., the black hats), as you have in this forum when it’s the pants being discussed and not the headwear?
I personally find the blue jeans -> MO assumption way less offensive than the black hat -> silly assumption, because calling someone MO is not an insult.
“I’d bet dollars to donuts that when we held largely agricultural and craft jobs, we wore the cultural equivalent of jeans day in and day out — no matter how religious you were.”
Actually, werent we saved from metzraim because we dressed “differently” from them?
Actually, werent we saved from metzraim because we dressed “differently” from them?
Do you wear suits and ties?
In other words, we’re not (as I’m reading the discussion) discussing this from a Chukas HaGoyim counterpoint (since, otherwise, suits and ties would have to fall into the same discussion) but rather from a “what does this indicate about the person?” perspective.
And nonetheless, I *highly* doubt your average farmer, milkman, blacksmith back in the day worked in good slacks. They wore the functional equivalent of jeans today — clothes that were sturdy, comfortable to do physical labor in, and not fancy or overly nice – and I’ll bet they wore them even if their non-Jewish counterparts wore the same type of clothing.
The Wolf
it’s the way people perceive you and like said previously, people judge based on the way you look without knowing who you really are.
I can’t help how other people are going to perceive me. If they’re going to judge me as being sub-standard because I wear jeans, then that’s *their* problem, not mine. I don’t have to live my life by other people’s standards.
And with regards to shidduchim, if you’re dealing with someone who is going to reject you *solely* because you wear jeans, then you’re better off without such a match. You probably wouldn’t want to be married to someone who is that judgemental, narrow-minded and superficial.
The Wolf
Avram in MD…look up the definition of tounge and cheek
Just as if a soldier refuses to wear his uniform, he will soon no longer be a soldier; and if a Belzer Chosid starts wearing a kipa sruga and shorts, he probably will no longer be considered a Belzer Chosid; so too if a Chareidi starts wearing jeans casually every day, it may cause him to no longer be considered a Chareidi.
I think the problem here is the terminology (guess who proof read a 100 page Mortgage today ;). Wearing jeans, or any other fabric for that matter, doesnt make you “Religious” or not.
Dressing a certain way only classifies you, it doesnt make you “Religious”. You can be a wonderful Erliche Yid and wear jeans. As was mentioned before, the inside is what really counts.
Just as if a soldier refuses to wear his uniform, he will soon no longer be a soldier; and if a Belzer Chosid starts wearing a kipa sruga and shorts, he probably will no longer be considered a Belzer Chosid; so too if a Chareidi starts wearing jeans casually every day, it may cause him to no longer be considered a Chareidi.
And that’s fine with me as I never self-identified as a Belzer Chosid or a Chareidi… and furthermore (and more importantly), there is NOTHING WRONG with NOT being a Belzer Chosid or a Chareidi.
The Wolf
true, but they will all still be considered religious Jews…
i know the definition , but moderator didnt print it. lol
Sacrilege,,,couldnt agree more
SJS: That was the point. It’s something normally associated with MO, but is really older than many “yeshivish” minhagim.
because calling someone MO is not an insult.
Really? Can you say that with a straight face? We both know exactly what the phrase means in yeshivish circles.
Wolf im loving your last 2 posts! Excellently said!
you know what, you are all arguing with society. NOBODY is changing society with the snap of a finger. Its a veeery gradual change. And what society says, or at least the frum yeshivish community, is that wearing anything but the typical black and white or occasional t-shirt is rebelling against society. That you do not want to be like everyone else. Which, in my opinion, is true. Why do you specifically have to “instigate” and wear something to make you stand out? obviously you dont not want to be the typical yeshivish person! which is not a bad thing but you are making a statement that you are different. Which is not the typical yeshivish way.But that does not mean it is “wrong”. It is not wrong but it makes you different.Not yeshivish. If you don’t want to be perceived as “yeshivish” then kol hakovod!!
Another thought- what does clothes have to do with religious?? its just what society accepts. Not “religious”.only YOU know how religious you really are.
mikehall12382,
Avram in MD…look up the definition of tounge and cheek
Nu?
I’m not sure exactly why my words are disagreeable. My view is this:
1.) There is nothing wrong with wearing jeans (I mean as daily clothing, not just for painting, plumbing, etc.). Jeans have no bearing on a person’s worth, religiosity, ethics, or anything of that sort.
2.) In general U.S. culture, not just Yeshivish culture, or European culture, etc., jeans are considered informal wear.
3.) In Yeshivish circles, value is placed on dressing formally according to a combination of the definitions set by the land in which we live, and what has traditionally been worn. A facet of this value is that slacks are preferable to jeans.
4.) A person wearing jeans is demonstrating that he does not share the value above in the manner defined by the Yeshivish/Chassidic/Chareidi community. Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this.
If you disagree with anything I stated above, please tell me. I think it is possible that our debate has arisen because of a perception that Yeshivish/Chassidic/Chareidi people think that their way is the right way, and by extension look down on people who do not live the same way that they do. I do not deny that to be the case, and I do not think that it is a correct way to act. It does not mean, however, that the clothes one chooses to wear is meaningless in a cultural context.
I also wanted to point out that the “looking down” cuts both ways. It is natural for a person to feel that his way is right… otherwise he’d change his ways. Just like there are those in the Yeshivish community who look down on the MO, there are those in the MO community who look down on the Yeshivish.
And that’s fine with me as I never self-identified as a Belzer Chosid or a Chareidi… and furthermore (and more importantly), there is NOTHING WRONG with NOT being a Belzer Chosid or a Chareidi.
The Wolf
I absolutely agree. Following the Torah properly is what matters.
Itche, I never realized singing adon olam was MO. I’ve heard singing Anim Zemiros is though…which I thought was odd too. I didn’t realize tefila was MO.
Anim Zemiros is sung in some Chareidi shuls.
Really? Can you say that with a straight face? We both know exactly what the phrase means in yeshivish circles.
I don’t think I’m in a circle where I would be unable to say that with a straight face. I personally feel like I fall out somewhere in the middle on these boards, which makes the polarization seem strange, and almost artificial to me. Perhaps it’s because I’m “out of town.”
BTW – I have been called “Jew” before meant as an insult. Does that make it an insult?
Apparently, you’re all unaware of the true sign of MO-ness (and therefore being in league with the devil).
The true sign of this is when the congregation sings together with the Chazzan (such as in Kail Adon or L’cha Dodi), as opposed to the chazzan singing a stanza and then the congregation mumbling the stanza after him. Shuls that do the former are far too modern to be frum. The latter is the sign of an Authentic Frum (TM) shul. 🙂 :p
The Wolf
Wolf,
I guess I truly am in the middle then, as my shul does both.
🙂
When people call me MO, I wear the label proudly, even if they think its an insult.
Avram: It’s the out-of-townness that does it.
Wolf: You left out a couple more.
1-The rabbi following the sefer torah when it passes by him (like he and everyone else are supposed too)
2- Singing mizmor l’dovid together when the sefer torah is brought back
3- Actually saying the separate misheberach for women with it’s own nusach.
4- Rabbi gives his speech before kaddish instead of before yekum purkan.
I wonder if we can put together a list of 48 similar simanei tarfus. 😛
‘Can you honestly say that, in modern Orthodox settings you have encountered, you have never heard a disparaging comment about the “black hats”? I know I have.’
Yes, I have, but OTOH a lot of modern orthodox rabbis wear black hats, at least on Shabat. My own rabbi wears a fedora over his kippah sruga!
“Also is there anything wrong with a religious girl wearing a jean skirt? “
My wife often wears long denim skirts. So it is by definition ok ;).
“Is Wearing Jeans Considered Modern?”
In many situations I would consider it practical, and normal. Denim is a rather rugged material.
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