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DY: try and try again you will not get me to chas vesholim say anything against the rama hakadoish. the part where we believe that our lack of derekh eretz is rooted in haluchu, i get. i just dont know how we got here.
You know, I’m here posting. So obviously I’m not too much in the camp of those who speak out strongly against such forums. But this thread is just about enough to convert me.
As long as we’re sticking to opinions, fine. But it has been made abundantly clear that this is an issue firmly rooted in Halacha. Yet we have “alternate feelings”, and “disgust”.
Why do we bother having threads bashing certain yeshivos and people who fall out of the pale of normative Judaism, when we have such posters among us to deal with ?
Logician, with all due respect that is really blowing up and twisting things a bit.
I actually was thinking as I read this and heard that you require $1000 from someone who doesn’t have it for doing chessed, that makes me wonder why I would want to be part of the yeshivish community at all! If Hashem is happy with a “gift”, how dare you act like $100 is an insult! You have turned this Holy work into a business and are upset that your attitude is turning stomaches. It isn’t halacha we are arguing with, Ch”V, it is your somewhat skewed interpretation of it.
Now that you have managed to malign many people, please answer the question that has been posed. The RMA says a shadchan is entitled to the market rate. What is the market rate? If I gave a shadchan $500 and said shadchan took me to beis din because they felt they were entitled to $1000, what would beis din say to me?
Besalel, you think it’s a lack of derech eretz to follow the R’ma?
In other words, I don’t understand where you’re coming from.
Syag,
If Hashem is happy with a “gift”, how dare you act like $100 is an insult!
No, Hashem is not “happy” when we don’t pay what we’re obligated to.
You have no right to decide to define something as (exclusively) chessed when halacha defines it as a chargeable service. I’m sorry, but the Shulchan Aruch’s definition beats yours.
Apy,
What is the market rate? If I gave a shadchan $500 and said shadchan took me to beis din because they felt they were entitled to $1000, what would beis din say to me?
That obviously would depend on what they would pasken is the market rate for the community involved.
The definition of community is also something needing psak.
L’maaseh, it rarely, if ever, ends up in beis din, but someone needs to consult with a posek before unilaterally deciding what or how much to give, because it’s a halachic issue and not dependent on personal whim.
Right, it’s a halachik issue and not dependent on personal whim. That is exactly why I don’t have to give an amount that some sub culture decided on their own is THE rate but rather what the halacha dictates.
DY – You seem to answer me many times based on what you assumed I said, but not what I said. I said we have to pay what Hashem asks, not what people in the tri state area decide. You then tell me I can’t decide not to pay. I never said that. The word chessed does not mean “free of charge”. I said (several times) that OF COURSE you pay, but the payment should be based on halacha and NOT on what you and your group of friends decided for me.
Syag,
Some direct quotes from you:
“I don’t think a person can consider being a shadchan as being a job.”
Well, halacha, in any meaningful way, does.
“If I can’t find $5 for my kids class gift to someone, how can you tell me I NEED to come up with that kind of money.”
Where does halacha reduce an obligation based on inability to pay? (without mechila)
“What a crazy concept that facilitating a marriage that was ordained by Hashem himself ENTITLES you to money I need to feed my kids.”
Again, not halachically correct. Providing a service does halachically entitle one to monetary compensation.
I don’t think I misquoted; I copied and pasted.
It seems you’re arguing in concept, not merely amount or location. If you were to tayna that in your location, the amount is lower, I would be fine with that.
I am commenting on your pre determined amount of $1000, not on making a payment. Read it again with that in mind and you will see where I never said not to make payments.
And Halacha does not say that being a shadchan is a job, the ‘meaningful’ way you speak of is you knowing I am correct but wanting to split hairs. 😛
I said $1000?
It probably is at least that in NY, but when did I ever say it?
You didn’t say $1000. You kept telling me that when I said I dont want to pay $1000, I am going against halacha, not making Hashem happy, not following the Shulhan Aruch etc s I was answering your comments directed toward me specifically, not your comments on the subject.
You kept telling me that when I said I dont want to pay $1000, I am going against halacha
I never said that either. I never said an amount.
My issue is that you’re against the idea of putting a number to it philosophically, because the shadchan doesn’t deserve it, which you would never say regarding a real estate broker. And that you somehow think that your inability to pay plays a role, unlike to a real estate broker.
If you would admit that it’s a chov like any other, as the halacha says, but merely argue that in your neighborhood the going rate is less, I would think you’re on the right track, and then we could discuss the numbers.
I have no problem putting a number to it philosophically and I didn’t say the shadchan didnt deserve it. I said I dont like the idea that posters here decided that if I pay an amount given to me by a rav, but it isn’t the price you think you are worth, than I didn’t fulfill my obligation.
(read that twice before continuing)
The shadchan may deserve to be paid, but she does not deserve to want MORE THAN HALACHA DICTATES. She has no business telling me that my payment AS DETERMINED BY HALACHA wasn’t good enough.
I read it three times for good measure. You win the debate against the straw man, hands down.
Syag, I haven’t been part of this discussion, and have read like only the last 2 posts.
But disregarding the story that happened in this thread, you do agree that shadchanus is governed by the halachos discussing it, and that the halacha says there is an objective amount which is the correct amount, and that it is determined by what most other people do?
And it makes sense that there should be a set required payment also. If you don’t want to pay the piper, don’t use their services and call the tune.
That’s what I did. I didn’t want to pay a shadchan so I went off and found my own. And I reckon she’s better than all those retards from BJJ being peddled by the shadchans. (Or, at least, she’s less than $1,000 worse.)
(That last line was probably not worth losing dinner over, but there’s a whole day until dinner…)
“That obviously would depend on what they would pasken is the market rate for the community involved.”
So, it does not depend on the shadchans personal feelings either now, does it. Why do you malign someone who gives an amount less than what you believe is THE proper amount.
“The definition of community is also something needing psak.”
As would an “inter community” shidduch.
“L’maaseh, it rarely, if ever, ends up in beis din, but someone needs to consult with a posek before unilaterally deciding what or how much to give, because it’s a halachic issue and not dependent on personal whim.”
One must also consult with a halachic authority before unilaterally deciding to malign a whole bunch of people because their personal whim calls for $2500 and they only got $750 or a candy dish.
My final thought on the matter is. If the halacha states that in absence of a pre arranged agreement or a pre determined market rate set by beis din (or the market), then the shadchan is not the one who determines the market rate, the market does, and that includes those on the receiving end of the service as well.
popa – yes to your first two paragraphs. Thank you for understanding what I thought I said several times.
apushatayid – YES!!! especially this:
One must also consult with a halachic authority before unilaterally deciding to malign a whole bunch of people because their personal whim calls for $2500 and they only got $750 or a candy dish.
Apy,
So, it does not depend on the shadchans personal feelings either now, does it. Why do you malign someone who gives an amount less than what you believe is THE proper amount.
I don’t and didn’t. I maligned the notion that it’s not decided by market conditions, as halacha states, but by personal whim or ability to pay. And please don’t make this personal, I am not maligning people, just vehemently opposing some erroneous ideas.
One must also consult with a halachic authority before unilaterally deciding to malign a whole bunch of people because their personal whim calls for $2500 and they only got $750 or a candy dish.
Again, I never gave an amount. But in any community, surely shadchanus in usually more than a candy dish.
If the halacha states that in absence of a pre arranged agreement or a pre determined market rate set by beis din (or the market), then the shadchan is not the one who determines the market rate, the market does
I lost you there. If there’s no rate set by the market, then the market sets the rate? What does that mean?
I don’t think anyone argued (certainly not I) that the shadchan sets the rate ex post facto, just that the rate is indeed set by the market, which, as pba said, means what most people give.
Syag, are you retracting your repeated assertion that the financial means of the mechutanim determines the proper amount?
DY – I have a better idea, how bout you retract your misinterpretation of what I really said and then we’ll all be good 🙂
I’m quite pleased with your retraction.
I also agree with your implied disagreement with popa’s last paragraphs. I think shadchanim are generally needed, and that the fact that they are needed has no impact on the halachic requirement to pay them.
AZOI.IS,
These are the data that I have gathered from this discussion:
1. Halacha requires that a shadchan be paid for the service s/he did for the couple and their families.
2. The amount of money to be paid is set by the normal rate in the given community.
3. You or your relative thinks the going rate is $2000.
4. You or your relative is ticked off because s/he commonly receives much less than that amount.
From my perspective, the problem isn’t necessarily that the community is not upholding the halacha, but that your relative has a skewed impression of what the going rate should be. After all, it’s set by the statistics of the people paying, not by what the shadchan thinks it should be. In other words, if 10 people pay $200 and 1 person pays $2000, the going rate goes with the 10, not the 1, irregardless if the 1 high payer is less wealthy than the 10, and also irregardless perhaps of what is paid for other wedding expenses such as flowers or food. A florist is probably paid more than a plumber, even though the latter’s work is more vital.
The only evidence for $2000 that I’ve seen other than hearsay is what’s printed on Saw You At Sinai’s Web site. I do not think that a Web site dictates what a community’s going rate is, even if they are getting halachic guidance of their own. In other words, to find out what the going rate is, the couple should ask their rav, not the shadchan’s.
If your relative is truly upset by being paid less than $2000, then perhaps s/he should be up front with the clients before services are rendered what s/he feels the going rate is. Just because the halacha is that a person who performs unsolicited labor deserves payment doesn’t mean unsolicited labor is the way to go. Most people would be very uncomfortable with that.
“and if you cant pay that amount, to consult your Rabbi.”
Hopefully before you make use of their services. Do they state the Rav or Rabbonim that they consult?
Just curious, what community standard does SYAS conform to, the online community?
“I lost you there. If there’s no rate set by the market, then the market sets the rate? What does that mean?”
That means, let the market go and determine a rate. Perhaps not enough people are familiar with this particular halacha and not much has been done to establish what is “normal”. Perhaps if people were aware of what was going on some norm might be established.
let the market go and determine a rate
It does, l’halacha. What do you mean, “let it”?
not much has been done to establish what is “normal”
When you say, “establish”, do you really mean, “to publicize”?
These are the data that I have gathered from this discussion:
1. Halacha requires that a shadchan be paid for the service s/he did for the couple and their families.
2. The amount of money to be paid is set by the normal rate in the given community.
3. You or your relative thinks the going rate is $2000.
4. You or your relative is ticked off because s/he commonly receives much less than that amount.
From my perspective, the problem isn’t necessarily that the community is not upholding the halacha, but that your relative has a skewed impression of what the going rate should be. After all, it’s set by the statistics of the people paying, not by what the shadchan thinks it should be. In other words, if 10 people pay $200 and 1 person pays $2000, the going rate goes with the 10, not the 1, irregardless if the 1 high payer is less wealthy than the 10, and also irregardless perhaps of what is paid for other wedding expenses such as flowers or food. A florist is probably paid more than a plumber, even though the latter’s work is more vital.
Avram – so beautifully expressed. And probably much easier to understand than my version(s)
For whatever it’s worth…
The following information is gleaned from extensive observation of the shidduch scene over a extended period of time.
Typical shadchanus (i.e. the amounts that are commonly given) in the Tri State area falls in the range of 1,000 to 1,500 each side. This includes Yeshiva people/Balle Batish etc.
In the heimishe community shadchanus is considerably higher.
In out of town communities typically a bit less.
modern orthodox community typically less (despite what it says on SYAS) Perhaps there are people who are trying to change that, but the change has not taken widespread hold yet.
This is simply a report of the realities on the ground.
As the posters have repeatedly stated, it is a halachic shayla and requires a halachic determination.
Often there are complicating factors such as more than one person involved in the role of shadchan. Or where one side is from one community and the other side is from a different community. Does it go by the standards/minhag of the community that the couple is part of, or does it follow the standards/minhag of the community the shadchan is part of.
These and similar questions should of course be asked to a qualified rov prior paying the shadchan thus ensuring that one properly fulfills their halachic obligation to compensate the shadchan.
Avram, do you have evidence that AZ’s numbers are not correct? If not, you should not be jumping on the OP for inflating them.
“It does, l’halacha. What do you mean, “let it”?”
Halacha has not established the “going rate”, unless the anonymous rabbonim behind the $2000 claim on SYAS are “the established halacha”.
“When you say, “establish”, do you really mean, “to publicize”?”
No, I mean establish. As in each community should institute what is considered an acceptable range normal range. There are takanos for everything else, rabbonim can institute a takana for this too.
Where is the Rma that has been mentioned?
Trust me, he wont! Some people are just “koch-leffels/hock-a cheiniks”.
That was uncalled for. I don’t know Avram personally. From his posts here, though, he seems very reasonable and thought out. In fact, he is one of my favorites, and I find myself agreeing to most of what he writes. I think he is just unaware in this case, and you could have simply said that you see a different standard for shadchanus than he does.
There’s no reason to talk that way about a poster who is always polite and respectful.
Halacha has not established the “going rate”
Of course it has, and will, and when you make a simcha, b’sha’h tovah, you’ll do the necessary research to find out what it is at that time.
I may have missed one or two posts. But is seems like we have several posters claiming to be familiar with going rates, and putting them at the level being debated.
On the other hand, we have several posters outraged with these rates – yet not suggesting they have info on what the going rate is.
And of course we have the one who alternates between saying the rate is unfair, and saying you have to take what you’re given.
Syag – i have not bothered responding to why I don’t think I was twisting your words around, because DY has done an admirable job of showing how you’ve been twisting your own words around.
Logician – thank you for not responding, I probably wouldn’t have answered you. Your stance has changed with each post so it wasn’t worth pursuing. My thoughts haven’t changed from my first post. If you, or anyone else didn’t understand it as I meant it, so be it. I clarified what I meant. That’s why people have conversations instead of submitting essays, dissertations and monologues.
DY – and of course the first person I would want to use to find me my bashert, middos and all, is someone who displays such a shining example. That goes for the attitude of many of the shadchanim represented here. B”H in the real world (out of town) things seem to run differently. And no, we don’t give candy dishes here either. But I bet if the rav okayed it, the shadchan would say thank you and mean it.
Syag, I’m afraid you’re judging unfairly based on private thoughts expressed on an anonymous forum. The feeling that one is entitled to be paid for hard work, when halachically owed (and the saying goes that shadchanus gelt is the most kosher money) is quite natural and does not reflect bad middos. I doubt too many shadchanim would be less than gracious in person (or on the phone).
If it was halachically acceptable to give a candy dish, I’m sure AZOI.IS would not have written as he did. And I say this with great confidence now that he has shown that he (I for some reason am assuming it’s a he) is indeed a ba’al middos.
Also, Syag, I think Logician’s posts have been very consistent.
As I only posted once on this thread, and did not actually state a personal opinion on the debated issue, I think your last post demonstrates quite clearly how much logical thought, as opposed to rhetoric, you’ve put into this conversation.
Sell it on Ebay.
DY – Oh my gosh! How bout this – I have no idea what you are talking about, I have only said, using every permutation of the alphabet that you misunderstood me and you just can’t let it go. Why is it so important to you to make me look stupid, and thank you for supporting those who joined in. Do you do this to people in person as well? When you believe strongly that they said something and they tell you that that is not what they were saying and they re-explain, do you just keep at them until they make something up, or feel like idiots? I don’t get what your point is. And, for illustrative purposes (though I am just opening myself up to more nit picking)
THIS – The feeling that one is entitled to be paid for hard work, when halachically owed . . . is quite natural and does not reflect bad middos. DOES NOT equal THIS The shadchan may deserve to be paid, but she does not deserve to want MORE THAN HALACHA DICTATES. She has no business telling me that my payment AS DETERMINED BY HALACHA wasn’t good enough. And if you can’t see that, than please just let it be!
Logician – thank you for your kind words. I may be incapable of carrying out a conversation but at least I can count.
Oh, sorry, Syag, I didn’t mean to continue our debate on my mistaken assumption. I fully accept your explanation that you didn’t mean to ch’v prioritize feelings over halacha. It would have been completely out of character, and I was shocked at what I thought you were saying, and pleased and relieved that you never meant it.
I’m not sure what I said now to make you think I’m rehashing anything, I just meant that what you were actually complaining about, which is a bad attitude on the part of shadchanim, may appear different in this virtual context than in real life. That’s it. And I don’t like Logician’s stubborn negative view of your position, I just didn’t see where he had changed his mind.
So to be clear, I completely believe that you’re on the side of halacha, and please forgive me if I wasn’t clear enough on that.
Apparently not, if you have me being inconsistent in my posts when I only posted once.
In any event, I join DY in fully accepting that you were misunderstood, and my comment as well was only directed towards our understanding of your position.
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