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Tzippi: NASI is taken seriously- very seriously. Frankly they are the only ones who have done anything to alleviate the Shidduch Crisis somewhat over the last two years- (and I am proud to help somewhat by pushing their agenda in the CR)
The people who need to know- do know who is behind NASI. Try asking Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky, Rav Yackov Perlow, Rav Ahron Feldman (along with Rav Shmuel Berenbaum zatzal) they gave their encouragement from the gitgo and continue to do so.
NASI prefers to let their actions and dedication speak for themselves-individual recognition really isn’t part of their game.
MM: Funny that you feel I/ haven’t made the case for age gap. Apparently 70 R”Y feel the case is a strong one, but perhaps the people who presented it to them did a better job than I have. That IS a definite possibility I’m just trying my best.
this problem exists in many other communities. The one that particularly comes to mind is the black=american community.
There is a glut of better-educated black women, and a shortage of better-educated men.
haifagirl, if you don’t feel like cooking dinner, there’s always frozen dinners or takeout.
Unless you meant that in a metaphorical sense.
To those who are seriously advocating polygamy (I don’t know if any of you are serious): I challenge you to find me 10 single women who would be willing to be someone’s second wife, even older singles. I challenge you to find me even 5 married women who are ok with their husband’s taking a second wife.
Bemused: Perhaps I don’t understand the question. The root cause is we have too many girls and not enough boys of the proper age. The “root cause” is because each succeding generation is larger and is having a lot of children. Perhaps we should have people stop having children for a while until things settle down? I don’t think that is a very practical solution.
I believe the age gap is definitly a problem because boys are always thinking of younge girls and leaving the older girls behind for no reason. The shidduch problem is a worldwide phenomenom and we have to address it the right. It is not a simple solution but to think about and to try to solve it is a great mitzvah. I also find that people are picky I won’t marry a sephardic, I won’t marry an ashkenaz, I won’t marry a poor girl, I won’t marry a chasid, I won’t marry a litvach, etc. the list goes on and it makes it very difficult to find somebody.
So a NASI spokesman who is advocating putting girls in the freezer(and I’m curious for how long) is speaking with the full haskama of the 70 signatories? Please clarify.
“The root cause is we have too many girls and not enough boys of the proper age. The “root cause” is because each succeding generation is larger and is having a lot of children. Perhaps we should have people stop having children for a while until things settle down? I don’t think that is a very practical solution.”
If I’m reading this correctly, this means you feel age-gap is the problem. Otherwise, why would having more children be a problem? So…if you feel age-gap is the problem, why aren’t you putting at least equal energy (pushing for 20 years) to advocate for AZ’s position; marriage within a closer age-range? This would significantly alleviate age-gap issues (as the number of girls being born in any time-range is not greater than the number of baby boys born in that time), and you would be addressing root cause, instead of byproduct of cause.
Bemused:
I feel the age gap is PART of the problem. Close in age marriages are a PARTIAL solution. There are other factors involved. If close in age marriages were an ideal situation, then the Avos and Imahos would have been closer in age.
BTW, I am slightly acquainted with a Frum polygamous family, and let me tell you, they are such a lovely and wonderful mishpacha.
haifagirl, I don’t think we can necessarily extrapolate this sort of data from the marriages of our Avos & Imahos to our own. The medrash tells us that Yitzchok Avinu was 40 when he married Rivka, who was three. And Yaakov Avinu married two sisters.
So age-gap part of the problem, and close in age marriages addresses that component of the problem. Sounds good. What other problems do you see, and what suggestions do you have for addressing those other problems at THEIR roots (instead of, or at least in strong conjunction with, addressing a byproduct of “too many girls”)?
Well I don’t think a person should stop having children because there is a shidduch crisis it really sound silly to me. But the age-gap is part of the problem. People should really be less picky in picking a future wife or husband people should learn to accept all jews the same, everybody feels better than the other. I have suggested ashkenaz girls to shephardic boys and it looks like I am suggesting a goy and the other way around too.
The family is Yemenite, but Rav Ovadia Yosef Shlita came out in support of polygamy a number of years ago as well.
I, too, am acquainted with a polygamous family, and also had a man with several wives as a client some years ago.
The polygamous family is not Jewish, and they all seem very happy and emotionally healthy, and I would not want the police to raid their home and break up their family. They support themselves, and are kind, pleasant and considerate people, and love all their children.
ronrsr, What State did these 2 families live in?
The Vilna Gaon in Ma’aseh Rav Hashalem (p. 276) writes:
“If I would be successful, in accomplishing two things, I would be idle from Torah and T’fillah and go from city to city [to get them accepted]. One is to eliminate the prohibition of Rabbeinu Gershom against taking two wives for with this the G’ulah (final redemption) will become closer, and the second that they should have bircas Cohanim every day.”
The Gr”a’s talmidim have successfully restored saying Bircas Cohanim everyday in E”Y. We now need to work on fulfilling the Gr”a’s second great wish.
I believe the Yemenites were limited to 4 wives, while the Sephardim who practiced it were limited to two.
Seems like moist peope agree that age gap is part/root/primary cause of the shidduch crisis. Also seems like most people agree that close in age marriages will help at least in part. They may be other ideas that can help as well. Is there any reason NOT to continue to strongly encourge more close in age marraiges as that does seem to be taking hold.
Of course not to mitigate the other ideas being presented. I would just challenge those presenters to do something about their idea other than clog up cyberspace. Blogging is cheap. Let see some effective action. Put your money time and energy where your keystrokes are.
On the topic of reinstating POLYGAMY, the practice of having more than one spouse,
I believe that aside from it technically dealing with the abundance of older single girls, there is another more realistic benefit as well.
That benefit being that the older single girls, who were left single due to their ultra picky nature, upon being faced with the reality of being a second wheel in a polygamous marriage, will be forced to reconsider and correct their ultra picky ways, overcoming them in choice of a nice jewish single boy of her age
despite the fact that he is not filthy rich, or that he lacks hollywood genes,
(or plastic surgeons) settling for a decent guy,
as opposed to “other” alternative.
bein_hasdorim,
Another tangible benefit of reinstating polygamy insofar as the age gap crisis is concerned, is that while AZ’s close in age solution is also working towards the solution, that avenue ONLY helps future, young, singles. Whilst reinstating polygamy, in addition to helping current young singles, ALSO helps all the OLDER single girls who the future close in age marriages are too late to benefit from.
So both AZ’s idea’s and polygamy can work hand-in-hand in helping close the shidduch crisis.
Cherry Bim
I am not sure what your issue is. Have you read anything on the issue but are not sure what the source of the numbers are. If so what numbers do you have a problem with.
bein_hasdorim: you are obviously a sincere caring member of Klal Yisroel. Might I suggest that instead of just sharing your insightfull ideas in the CR, please do something about it. Klal Yisroel needs your help.
MM: Close the age gap does have a trickle up effect for the already older singles, but no doubt there are many older girls that close the age gap won’t be able to help.
As I wrote to our esteemed bein_hasdorim, Klal Yisroel needs people like you, please go make it happen. If all you plan on doing is blogging in cyberspace then i’m not sure the tachlis.
AZ; Thanks for your warm encouragement, I will now cease to offer the girls ages 21 and under, to the 25yo boys and older. Also I will try to make a list of the older single girls I know of, to have handy in case something comes up.
(I dont think encouraging my buddies to seek out another Eizer,(rather Knegdoh)
will put me on their wives top ten list) So that type of proactivity
I leave to others.
MM: Please don’t refer to close the age gap as “AZ’s Ideas”. 70 R”Y signed a Kol Korei to that effect. They deserve to be mentioned.
Nice to have you on board. If I could encourage you a bit more to close it a drop more. Boy 22-25 also should, when possible, be suggested to girls within a year or two of their age.
AZ-
I picked up a Yated this week to read the ad and I now have even more questions about the NASI Project than I had before.
To begin- what does the number 760 represent? Is that the amount of monetary prizes they awarded in the past two years? If so I don’t see that as much of a success that 760 matches were made in the past two years that were eligible for the prize. If the NASI Project set up the 760 couples then that would be impressive but the number 760 is too large to believe.
Secondly- the Kol Korei was not included in the ad. I’m still very curious to see the wording that was signed. Furthermore there was not a single name of any of the Rabbonim who endorse the NASI Project mentioned in the ad. (“Ziknei Yisroel” is a rather broad statement.)
Third- the e-mail address listed as the contact info implied that the NASI Project owned a domain name, if so the cost would be minimal to create a website that has a mission statement and a copy of the Kol Korei.
Fourth- The ad asked each family with children of eligible marriage age to donate $50 to the NASI Project, the address listed (for both the U.S. and Canada) did not contain the name of a human. For someone like me who only heard of the NASI Project from YWN and can not validate it’s legitimacy I find it very suspicious to see an ad they placed asking for a considerable amount of money with no name attached to the organization.
Dr. Pepper
Advertising is Expensive. The can’t put everything in every week. The Kol Korei was printed and is on Yeshiva worlds September 24 2009. (more signatures were added after the posting and printed in the paper)
760 is the number of close in age shidduchim that the NASI Proejct has been informed of since it’s inception a bit more than 2 years ago. NASI hasn’t set up a single couple as they are NOT shadchanim. They encourage people who set up shidduchim to keep the ages in mind and seek to implement ways to encourage more close in age shidduchim. Judging by feedback they have received, hundreds of shidduchim have happened that otherwise would not have been considered. This is first person testimony from boys, their mothers, girls and their mothers. (yeah fathers seem to not be to involved in this whole shidduch thingy).
The Ziknei Roshei Yeshiva who have been behind the Project from the gitgo are Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky, Rav Yackov Perlow Rav Ahron Feldman and Ybclc Rav Shmuel Berenbaum.
NASI would like to lauch a website that has more than just the kol korei on it. If you have suggetions, please contact them. They value any and all input. All it will take is a email from you.
For those who have only heard of NASI from the YWCR who would expect them to donate. If you noticed there is no NASI fundraiser on YW. Readers of the Yated/Hamodia have been seeing and hearing about NASI from respected people like Rabbis Ehpraim Wacsman, Paysach Krohn, Jonathan Rosenblum (see this weeks yated page 81 where he mentions it again), and others for more than 2 years now. By many people NASI has achieved tremendous credibility. It it to those that the fundraiser is directed.
I hope I have answered your legit questions satisfactorily. If not, please contact NASI via email and I’m sure they will more than give you the time of day.
Dr. Pepper – Why all the walking on egg shells with AZ? It’s as clear as day; AZ is N.A.S.I. and they are not being totally honest with the public. Donor Beware!
Dr. Pepper: This YWN link you are seeking may be useful to you: Roshei Yeshiva ~ Age-Gap ~ YWN
AZ: So you are moida the age gap solution will mostly help future singles, and even the trickle up effect won’t solve the issue for most of the already older singles. Hence the POLYGAMY proposal. Considering it was backed by the Vilna Gaon and is backed by Rav Ovadia Yosef, there is no reason to not seriously bring this issue up.
BTW, Dr. Pepper is correct that using your existing domain, NASI has you can put up a website for a cost very close to zero dollars.
(Also a couple months ago I asked about the mathematics of the age gap over here and followed up over here. Don’t know if you saw that.)
mm: The polygamy idea is not being endorsed by the R”Y. Feel free to try your hand, but at this point they are not on board. Hence I only encourage the close in age suggestion.
please contact NASI I’m sure they would love to make use of your techie expertise. I believe your questions about the math were answered on those pages.
Cherrybim: not that you deserve a response, but I would be hesitant to disparage a project that has been endorsed by Rav Yackov Perlow, Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky Rav Ahron feldman and Rav Shmuel Berenbaum zatzal (and in case you will say prove it) it has been spoken and praised in very public forums by Rabbis Wacsman, Paysach Krohn, and Jonathan Rosenblum.
Clearly you have a ax to grind, may I ask what it is?
AZ:
At one time the Rabbonim were not endorsing the close in age proposal either. Polygamy must be discussed and proposed to the Gedolim Shlita, just as the close in age was previously.
MM: for someone who is such a ardent supporter of livishe R”Y (i took a peek at some of your other threads – such as the importance of yiddish) it is quite out of your character to push an agenda – polygamy -that you very well know the Litvishe gedolim don’t support) Hmmmmm
Go for it. Don’t be shy. For the record they have rejected it but perhpas if you approach them they will reconsider.
AZ:
Polygamy hasn’t yet been on the radar and they haven’t addressed it yet. So it surely is not something they don’t support. What does this have to with Litvish anyways?
The Vilna Gaon, who supported polygamy, is as Litvish as Litvish comes. See my quotes above from Ma’aseh Rav Hashalem.
Rabbenu Gershon Cherem is not going away. Every country that has significant Jewish presense has canonized it into law.
Even when it was permitted the guy had to be rich enough to have 2 houses!!!
Dear Mezonos Maven – one family was in Massachusetts, one in Arizona.
from my polygamy humor file:
If polygamy is reinstated, think of the merchandising possibilities. In Utah, for the 2002 Olympics, a beer company selling a beer called “Polygamy Porter” put a photo of a six-pack on a billboard and advertised: Take one home for the wives.
The beer’s slogan: Why have just one?
I recall that some christian group evaluated the candidates in the 2008 election, and determined that Mitt Romney and Joe Lieberman were the only two candidates who did more than give lip-service to “chrisitan” family values, they both really lived it. Amid candidates who had dumped former wives, etc., Romney was the only one still married to his first wife, and though Joe Lieberman had been divorced as a young man, he had a longtime wife and appeared to have a real marriage, and of course, those family values.
A prominent Boston radio talk-show host used to greet Mitt Romney with “Hey, Governor, how are the wives.” Mitt Romney would just chuckle gently.
one of the polygamous men I knew had a six-family house, a few of the units were occupied by his wives and offspring.
I don’t believe it will happen legally in the USA. Perhaps try it out in a country like Yemen first. They laws of that country may be more amenable to it.
Brighton Ski Resort, near Park City, has billboards that run through March promoting its new four-person chairlifts. The slogan reads: “Wife. Wife. Wife. Husband. High Speed Quads.”
where is the Church of Latter Day Saints (the Mormons) Anti-defamation league when we need them?
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