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Jh22:
In right wing schools the girls start dating around 19 and boys at aprox 22.5, it’s just not a “scientific” study.
It seems like you don’t realize that number of older single girls dwarfs the numbers of older single boys.
I’m not sure what in the world the census you quoted has anything to do with our discussion. The question is not how many boys/girls there are in the community. The question is not how many boys/girls are born each year.
The question IS how many boys girls enter the dating pool each year.
So long as we agree on population growth and that girls start dating at 19 vs. 22.5 for boys we have significantly more girls than boys entering the dating pool and thus a very significant number of girls without anyone to match up with.
cherrybim:
You are being choleik on the resident expert mathematician of CR otherwise known as DR Pepper(s).
AZ,
1. Why wasn’t there a shidduch crisis when polygamy was in effect? It should have resulted in their not being enough wives for all the men, as some men had multiple wives.
Obviously, this is normal and how G-d wants the world to run insofar as shidduchim are concerned. Same in our days.
2. If the shidduch crisis today is not enough husbands, then if we reinstate polygamy the women who today (allegedly) would otherwise never be able to get married, could marry a man who already has another wife.
AZ – Stop with the phoniness already.
AZ-
(From a previous topic that has been closed.)
I do not read the Yated or Hamodia so I did not see the ads that NASI placed. I don’t know how much it costs to place an ad in either paper but I have a feeling that creating a minimal website with contact information as well as a copy of the Kol Korei signed by 70 (or is it down to 60 now?) Rabbonim would cost less than a single ad and would generate more publicity. I’m curious to see if any of the Rabbonim I see on a regular basis are on that list.
Please also note that I never said that your numbers are accurate (I said that numbers themselves do not lie, the people that tally the data can lie and people can use statistics to present the numbers in a way that is a “white” lie).
Dr. Pepper – “I said that numbers themselves do not lie”.
You are correct when dealing with truthful and real numbers, which is not the case here.
I hope no one is encouraging people to have less kids to alleviate the shidduch crisis in 20 years. Numbers might not lie but using a scare tactic isn’t going to solve any problems.
mommyof5 – you made my day. Those are hysterical!
People will always say theres a shidduch crisis, even 15 yrs ago there supposedly was a crisis , whats a crisis about getting married older not everyone gets married 19 or 20 ,the end theres noo crisis people just want money from familys to get married that is the real! Crisis!
tamazaball I really remember that before it was easier for the girls to find guys, people used to beg me to introduce them to girls, as a matter of fact I few girls from Mexico came to NY because there were not enough girls there.
mazca, I guess that must have been before the Age Gap Crisis started.
Yes it was a long, long time ago when Flatbush was not even that frum.
Dr. Pepper: There are presently 70 signatures on the Kol Korei. I believe if you pick up the Yated this week there is a ad in it with their contact info. They would love to have more manpower. If you know someone who would like them help build a website feel free to contact them. (They don’t pay salaries as they run on a very low budget).
tamazaball: The crisis is NOT about getting married at 27 instead of 19. It is about NEVER getting married.
MM: Reinstating polygamy would probably alleviate the dearth of available men. Somehow I don’t think that suggestion is going to be recommended by the Gedolim and R”Y any time soon.
For the record: in Muslim communities where the style is for there to be large age gaps between husband and wife they are the same communities where polygamy is more wide spread. This has been documented. Could you possible guess the connection between the two??
AZ,
Where has this been documented? Where can I find such documentation? You frequently refer, in the abstract, to alleged proofs but offer none of them when asked.
Additionally, you never responded to why there was no shidduch crisis of a shortage of available women when we practiced polygamy. Ashkenazim stopped only by Raabeinu Gershom but Sephardim continued until recent times.
And what’s wrong with polygamy?
AZ, from your numbers the boys seem to be starting at HS+4, not 5.
BTW, the Muslim communities don’t just have gaps of a few years, they have generational gaps. Really not sure what you’re getting at, maybe my coffee hasn’t sunk in. Can you explain?
AZ doesn’t Hashem destin a zivug for each person? There is no reason why a person should NEVER get married according to the Torah and our Jewish traditions.
haifagirl: Most men I know have a hard time dealing with one wife, let alone two!
Muslims have no problem keeping them in check as if they act up they can give them two petch, or worse.
I do not condone such behavior, i’m merely stating the facts.
bein_hasdorim,
I don’t think it is such a bad idea to reinstate it. Remember it is optional (for both genders), not mandatory.
Bein hasdorim, actually the only Muslims that do practice polygamy are very, very wealthy sheiks. Most people do not want to have multiple wives because the wives don’t usually work and the men have to support them and all of their kids.
Sorry, it can’t be reinstated – dina demalchusa dina.
tzippi: And laws have never been changed or repealed?
tzippi,
haifagirl is absolutely correct.
(And in addition, even with current laws it can be accomplished by simply not legally marrying anyone. The Fundamentalist Mormons and certain immigrants from Africa already practice it in the U.S. without interference, as long as there is no other laws violated the authorities don’t bother anyone.) So as long as a person did not civilly marry more than one, he is not violating any law.
Additionally, dina demalchusa dina is primarily applicable only on monetary matters the State regulates (i.e. taxes.) It does not override our own laws on legal matters.
You seen to have all the answers except when put on the spot, then you instruct the poster to contact N.A.S.I., which is you.
How about some direct answers for a change?
mybat said; “actually the only Muslims that do practice polygamy are very, very wealthy sheiks”
That is absolutely NOT true! Altough many wealthy arabs have muliple wives,
It is common practice for regular muslims as well. Many muslim across the board
even in Israel, Gaza & here in the united states, yes I know that for a fact!
I know a guy who lives here and has at least two wives.
He said that he is the boss in his home and life is great. They do whatever he wants,
not complaining, and that they aren’t spoiled like americans.
He said he buys them rolls of fabric and they make their own clothing
which last them for years. He was laughing about how he’s lucky he is that
he doesn’t have american wives, which one outfit would cost him more than he spens in a year on fabric. He was also bragging about how many kids he has.
This guy works here in the u.s. as a repairman.
MM Haifa girl: You are more than welcom to go the encourage polygamy route as a method to alleviate the crisis, much Haztlacha.
I will continue to encourage the agenda that the Rosehi Yesiva who are advising the NASI project are suggesting.
cherrybim: the numbers have been presented/discussed in this very forum to death (see numerous earlier threads). I was not the person who conducted the studies and I am not a mathematician. Either look at the old threads or contact NASI and they will provide you with whatever data you are looking for. (their contact info is in this weeks YATED page 7)
Tzippy: Assuming boys graduate HS at 17 and start dating at 22 thats HS+5. If they graduate at 18 then it HS+4. I’m not sure for the purposes of our discusiion that it really makes a difference. Clearly the boys start dating at a considerably older age than the girls.
mybat: My point being that firstly, it is normal for a muslim to have muliple wives.
Secondly, to support two wives and many children with the lifestlye they lead,
is drastically cheaper then the lifestyle we lead while supporting one wife and a medium size family.
To M-Maven: ask any accountant about taxes, marriage, etc. to see how much marital status is tied in to civil law. One of the many reasons there is such agitation for recognition of alternative marriage.
And Haifagirl, there is such distaste for polygamy in the US – for good reason, considering the horrible farce of marriage that passed for polygamy here – that agitating for polygamy would be a major, major chilul Hashem. And not too many people other than Sefardim,, maybe, have a mesora of how it should be done properly.
And IIRC it didn’t work out too well as long ago as 1000 years ago in Ashkenazic circles. I can’t imagine how, with yeridas hadoros, we could make a better go of it in the 5770s.
(Remind me again, why am I taking this seriously?!?)
Actually, there are plenty of polygamous families in the US, although to the best of my knowledge, none are Jewish. They seem to get along very well.
I agree with haifagirl that it would be a good idea in general (in addition to alleviating any claimed numbers crisis) to reinstate polygamy.
Tzippi: I think we all know that both haifagirl and MM are being facetious. But hey if the Gedolim endorse it fair enough. I think all would agree that such a major step would need backing from gedolim.
I was not being facetious in the least bit. Nor did I get the impression that haifagirl was. haifagirl, where you being at all facetious? I didn’t think so.
I do agree with AZ though that we need to go to the Gedolim and collect signatures for a Kol Koreh for this purpose.
AZ: I’m so glad you are a mind reader. Actually, that’s the problem with the anonymity of the CR. Very few people here know who I am. But I can assure you that those who know me know quite well that I have been pushing to reinstate polygamy for at least 20 years now.
I am absolutely NOT being facetious. I was at a seminar for Jewish women about 25 years ago, and the keynote speaker (I’m sorry I don’t remember her name), spoke about the shidduch crisis way back then, and recommended polygamy. It made sense to me then, and it makes sense to me now.
Bein hasdorim, I’m not really an expert on Muslim marriages. I was just repeating what a Muslim tour guide told us about their marriages.
But really, does it really make a difference to us how they marry?
haifagirl, they get along well if they maintain discretion and hide the fact from most others. Most Attorneys-General will not prosecute polygamy, because it has made prosecutors look really bad in the past.
Even in Utah, if there is no child abuse or welfare fraud associated with the polygamy, it will be overlooked by the authorities.
The real problem polygamy faces in America are the social, inheritance and other legal aspects, such as Which spouse is your Social Security Survivor beneficiary? Who is going to take care of the children of spouses with numbers greater than 2 in the event of your death?
It’s hard for me to assume that none of them are Jewish, since no wise polygamist goes around announcing it to all.
Now, wasn’t the ban against polygamy for 1,000 years? Hasn’t it expired yet?
ronrsr,
I think haifagirl’s earlier suggestion that we work towards modifying the laws on polygamy is the way to go here. And with that, we can regulate the legal aspects of it, including inheritance, etc. It would well be worth the effort.
That ban expired years ago. I keep complaining that rabbis don’t seem to be able to count to 1000, but nobody listens to me. I’m glad there are other people who feel as I do.
So Tzipppy asked for suggestions on the shidduch crisis:
1. re-instate Polgamy (pending serious endorsement from Gedolim)
2. Encourage more close in age marriages.
MM: Glad to be on the same team. You and Haifa girl work on the polygamy angle and I’ll continue on the close the age gap angle. No conflict here at all. Together we can really make a difference.
ronrsr, I thought it was for 500 years, and that is has expired but that no one ever officially reinstated it. But the Sefardim never has a ban in the first place.
AZ, you seem to know every little detail about N.A.S.I. and the report and about the signers except the most important answers: How the numbers that you manipulated came about; which statistical methods were used; which experts surveyed the Jewish female population and published the study.
Are you saying that you took these numbers from N.A.S.I. without any further investigation as to these very vital items? Or are you the source of these numbers? Either way, would you have us believe that the signers read the study and were provided with these answers?
tzippi,
“Remind me again, why am I taking this seriously?!?”
Perhaps because it’s more fun than doing the dishes waiting in the sink?! The things we do to avoid our responsibilities… :)JK
Haifagirl,
Out of curiosity, why have you been “pushing for polygamy for the past 20 years”?
AZ,
Of course, as with the Kol Koreh for the age gap issue, the proposed Kol Koreh, that will be distributed to the Gedolim for their signatures, reinstating polygamy will only be suggestive and not mandatory. No one, man or woman, will be required to participate in a polygamous marriage, but merely encouraged to do so.
Because I was told there was a problem. I saw for myself that the problem did exist. It just made sense.
Thanks Bemused, I needed that.
We are certainly in the ikvesa d’Meshicha (and I will even entertain the possibility of aschalta d’geula).
Mezonos, how can you regulate the legal aspects of it in America when the society is so opposed to plural marriage? The reason I brought up the social stigma is precisely that that is, and always has been, the greatest roadblock to plural marriage in America.
Just ask the Latter Day Saints (Mormons) and they will tell you. Brigham Young, who had 56 wives, which is probably too many for any man.
The Mormons in the west were applying for statehood for 40 years, but were ignored by Congress UNTIL they agreed to follow federal laws outlawing polygamy. Many legislators thought that the offer was insincere, and still didn’t support statehood.
I don’t see it happening in America, ever.
BTW, the 19th century Mormon polygamists did have a practice of marrying older women, widows and divorcees in order to provide for them. This would certainly help close the age gap and solve the shidduch problem.
haifagirl,
What problems did you notice that prompted you to support polygamy?
Cherrybim: The numbers were not “made up”. As for the numbers where derived…
After speaking to one of the actuaries who conducted the study.
Growth Rate was computed based on comparing grade to grade growth in schools. This data was taken primarily from a study done by the Avi Chai foundation.
Additionally the growth rate was computed based on average family size. The average family size was deduced based on a survey undertaken for this purpose by professionals in a mathematical related field.
Should you want to sponsor a survey by a professional demographer i’m sure it will be most welcome. However, to date no substantive dissent to the data that was uncovered created a push for more research on the seemingly obvious notion of significant population growth.
Dating Ages: Was computed based on a survey conducted for this purpose by professionals in a mathematical related field.
Additionally (related specifically to the yeshivish community) information from BMG, the largest conglomerate of single dating age boys in the country, yielded an average starting dating age of 22.75+. Whereas girls typically begin dating a short time after returning from seminary which is approximately 19 years old.
As an aside: most people in the community find this theory to be self evident. If you have any specific issues with any of the findings please contact NASI and I’m sure they can put you in touch with the the professionals who did the research.
MM: If you think you can be successful in getting a Kol Korei regarding reinstating polygamy-go for it.
If your intent is to belittle the Kol Korei on the age gap issue, feel free. But why you are wasting you are time is beyond me.
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