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Is there REALLY a shidduch crisis??? Am I the only one who thinks not? When I look at single girls and boys I don’t look at them as oh their picky or no one wants them…I look at it as they just haven’t found the right one! Hashem has a plan for each person when they will find their right zivug. So why all this talk about a shidduch crisis? Or IS there really one and I just don’t understand it?
shaatra I really think there is a shidduch crisis, a lot of young girls and boys do not have anybody to go out and marry, we can say maybe there is not because we do not know them, but believe me it is dangerous and scary when young people cannot find their besheret and it is very important for us to try to help them, life without a marriage is not complete, all our religion is based on mitzvot that we can only do when we are married and not single, .we should pray for all the people that need to meet the right people
BS”D
Shaatra, speaking as a much older single, you are basically right BUT there is a shidduch SYSTEM crisis which is preventing some zivugim from happening at the right time. Much of that system is because we are overly influenced by the physical and material standards of the society which surrounds us.
Now, if you send Rabbanit Bishmazal Loyashar of Creedmoor $3000 for every dress size you wear over zero (ie if you are a 2 you pay $6K, a 4 $12K, a 6 $18K and so on) tomorrow I guarantee you she will find you the right shidduch from her list of mental patients, convicts, alcoholics, drug addicts, and Nigerian 419 lads in Deal, Flatbush, Mexico, Panama and Argentina.
She’ll even throw in an illegal chadame for 300 hours if you pay her another $300 – 99 cents an hour for her and one cent an hour for Guadalupe from Guatemala who is desperate because there is no more Pedro from Postville to support her :))))!
So in few words shidduch crisis is just about money.
EDITED.
Well, when the older single girls can hardly get dates with normal people, then it’s not just a matter of waiting to find the right one. You can’t find the right one if there’s no one to go out with.
And if you don’t think it’s a crisis that girls will stay single all their lives, then I can’t help you.
If you have a child in shidduchim – then it’s a crisis. If someone else does – then you don’t think it’s really so bad. But, people with kids in shidduchim, rich & poor alike, as well as choshuv & plain, all agree that today’s shidduch scene is a crisis.
rebetzin: I find it hard to follow you, why do you state that older single girls hardly get dates with normal people? What happened to the older single boys?
Have they all gone insane? Perhaps you want to tell me that they would not date these
older girls as they only date youger girls. This is a myth being spread around by
some not so normal older girls. What about the even older guys out there?
Are you telling me a normal)35 year old guy wouldn’t want to date a 34 year old woman?
Why would a 23yo girl want to date a 30 year old anyhow?
if he werent rich of course)
Good normal girls, no matter their age, will have good normal guys wanting to date them. If this isn’t true then you have the parents or the girls to blame for allowing 54 year olds to dream a probability of a 26yo wanting to marry him.
Again not a rich 80 year old, for some creepy reason if he’s rich, there is a
high likelihood he will get just that.
(mods please keep in caps those words that are, it is meant for extreme emphasis)
As someone in the “parsha” and in the “shidduch system” I will agree with A600KiloBear and say that there is no shidduch crisis but a system crisis.
This so called dilemma is a figment of parents and rabbis (and rebbetzins) imagination when a girl is still single at the antediluvian age of 21 and the boy is still single at the ancient age of 25. DOES THIS NOT SEEM ABSURD!
Most of the single people I know (both girls and boys) do not think that they are despondent or in middle of the above mentioned “crisis”. It usually is the parent that is worrying beyond measure “why isn’t my daughter married; why can’t my son find a normal girl”.
If the society we live in will just “GET OFF OUR BACKS” and stop pushing the girls to get married right out of seminary and the boys to get married when they aren’t mature, then this so called disaster will dissipate. Let EVERYONE go at their own pace and when they feel ready.
This does not mean that Rabbonim should come out and say that boys should try to date girls that are older, but it also doesn’t mean that the boys should limit themselves to minors or barely legal girls. Let everyone find their significant other without guidelines from any outsider (meaning anyone BUT the boy and girl). Give advice if requested, or even if it isn’t, but don’t set statutes and whom can date whom, when and where.
Maybe the crisis is that boys and girls in the “parsha” have too much peer pressure or stress to conform to societies warped sense dating and marriage.
Bein hasdorim, I can’t believe you’re even asking the question after all the shidduhim threads. The reason they don’t have anyone to date is because there are much less older single guys than girls.
35 year old guys probably DO want to date girls in their 20s if they have a choice between that and 34 year old girls. But we don’t even have to come onto that reason, since there aren’t enough 35 year old guys to begin with.
I dated 30 year old guys when I was 23 and 24. Because even at that age it wasn’t so easy to get dates. Most guys in shidduchim are under 25, and by the time I got to 23 years old, I already had less dates than I did at 21/22. And this was more than 5 years ago when the crisis was not nearly as bad as it is now.
j&w22: Thanks! “but it also doesn’t mean that the boys should limit themselves to minors or barely legal girls.” lol! True
rebetzin: Go to BMG and tell me that there is not many guys over the age of 25 in shidduchim, not just there I know many elsewhere.
I am not claiming that there isn’t more girls,However, in my experiences
I have found that many older girls are very set in their ways, and are reluctant to settle down with many of the older guys that do come their way. I am not saying that they are picky though some might be, merely that they are reluctant to settle, for they are usually situated, making money for a while, have savings, do what they want, it’s hard for them to take a guy who might disrupt their way life as she they know it, unless he’s is very handsome or successful. Average or slightly below that is not a big enticement for them to decide to settle.
jewishandworking22 – you write – let everyone find their significant other without guidelines from any outsider. No one is forcing anyone to marry anyone else. The Rabbonim have written a Kol Korei encouraging shadchonim to try to make shidduchim amongst people close in age. They haven’t issued any guidelines, and to say they have is false. Of course, if a shadchan feels that a shidduch is appropriate even if it is far in age – no rav would tell the shadchan not to suggest it. The Rabbonim never set statutes and said whom can date whom, when and where. You are putting words in their mouths!
rebetzin: Regardless to what I said, I believe there should be an organization
set up in every community that deals with the older girls 26+ in ensuring that they
are out there getting redt to boys their age. I myself redt shidduchim
to anyone I know when it is nogeah. May HB”H send every single their Bashert B’karov! Especially the older yiddishe kinder.
Rebetzin, there is nothing wrong with a 23 year old going out with a 30 year old.
I do believe that it DOES boil down to $$$$
Bein hasdorim says that the older girls won’t marry an average guy if he’ll disrupt their lives…. Very true.
However I know for a fact that boys are encouraged to look for $$ even if they are very wealthy themselves.
I run a large shdduch group. We try to be helpful and understanding as to the wants of parents/ and perspective shidduchim.
However in the last few months the reuirements have become such that makes suggesting shidduchim difficult.
The typical list I get from parents runs like this:
1. Money – at least half an apartment
2. Five years “kest”
3. Girl can be up to size 6
4. Girl must have good job
5. Boy must be at least 5.8 inches
6. Boy should write a sefer etc
What hapened to MIDDOS?? My Fatherz2l told me to look for partners for my children that will keep them happy.
While parents are being unrealistic there will be a crisis.
cholentkugelkishke:
“The Rabbonim have written a Kol Korei encouraging shadchonim…..”
Out of curiosity, according to you, what, then,is the definition of a “kol korei”?????
Furthermore, I am am standing by my words and stating that the Rabbonim should NOT even be “encouraging shadchonim to try to make shidduchim amongst people close in age.” That is a guideline! Shadchanim who listen and follow these rabbonim listed on the kol korei will now try to find individuals who are closer together instead of THE RIGHT PERSON! I am not “putting words in their mouths.” I am just reiterating what they allegedly wrote, and definitely signed.
What would you do if your rabbi issued a kol korei that you should not use the eruv in your town (hypothetical case). Would you still use it, or would you follow your rav?
Bein hasdorim,
kol hakavod that you are involved.
I can’t speak for anyone I don’t know, but when I was in shidduchim I was desperate to get married. I had a successful career but it was nothing to me. And my friends were the same way. Most girls want to get married. I’m not saying no one is ever too picky but usually at some point, the picky people get desperate and stop being as picky.
I didn’t say there are no 25+ year old single boys, but a very large percentage of bachurim in BMG get married before that. Ask AZ for exactly numbers. It’s large enough that I had a harder time getting dates once I hit the ripe old ages of 23 and 24.
Also want to mention that I had no problem with 30 year old guys. I wanted someone mature.
bein_hasdorim:
I agree with your points and would just like to add the following:
In my experience, older girls that are working usually become disenfranchised with the way the older boys in the yeshivish world act and conduct themselves. These girls, as you mentioned, have become independent in one degree or another. However, most of the older boys are still in yeshiva and have not had any experience in responsibility. As mentioned in other threads, there are still boys in their late 20s+ who still have their mother making decisions for them.
Further, most of the older girls are working, and have been doing so for some time. They are used to a lifestyle where they can go shopping and spend money as they please. They, therefore, look for the same in a guy, since they would want to start a family and have to stop working at some point. This, I regrettably have to say, has not become the standard, rather it is the exception, in our society. The “men” believe that the women should still work, while 9 months pregnant, to support the household while they sit and learn, or if they have finally decided to obtain some responsibility, while they go to college to earn a degree.
shaatra:
To answer your question, it all matters on your definition of “crisis”. I personally do not believe that it is a crisis. But, in the end, even those who do believe it is such, will soon realize that the shidduch system we are using will turn this so-called “crisis” and downgrade it into a “situation” and eventually to “normal”. And NOT because the system is working, it is doing the exact opposite.
estherh, 2/3 of the points you mentioned are the boys being picky, and out of the 2 you mentioned for girls, I don’t believe the last one, because how many single boys write seforim? So why are people complaining that it’s the girls who are too picky? The boys are being much worse, just they get married anyway, so people blame the girls who are left.
jewishandworking22 – You truly are not understanding this issue. Your “moshol” is way off . The Rabbonim have spoken, and you don’t agree with them.
I know I’ve told this story here before:
Several weeks before I met my wife, I heard a famous shadchan speak. He said that things had really changed in his business in the last 20 years. Now, people have all these requirements that make his job harder, such as: No Republicans; must have brown eyes; no one shorter than 5’6″; no one who makes less than $100,000 per year, etc. Things that really don’t make a difference in a lifetime.
This makes his job harder, since he then must match people in a smaller pool.
His suggestion was to drop your preconceived requirements, go out, meet someone you like and could love; someone worthy of your love, who may not meet your punchlist requirements.
I laughed, because I didn’t think I had any of these preconceived requirements.
A few weeks later, I met someone who was a little too short, and a little too Russian, and a little too this, and a little too that. She was not the kind of person I thought I would marry.
But she was a lovely person and we did continue dating. She was also a little too kind, and a little too pretty, and her laugh was a little too loud and infectious, and I liked being with her a little too much, and I was a little too sad when we were apart.
A few days short of two months ago, I married her.
Which goes to show something, though I’m not sure what.
also, in an earlier thread, someone mentioned an organization called NASI. What is the full name of this organization?
old yiddish proverb: Parents can give a child a dowry, but not good luck.
cholentkugelkishke:
“jewishandworking22 – You truly are not understanding this issue. Your “moshol” is way off . The Rabbonim have spoken, and you don’t agree with them.”
So now you are claiming that it is a RULE and you MUST abide by the kol korei. Since, if it is only suggestions, then one does not have to “AGREE” to anything.
Please make up your mind.
Thank you,
shaatra:
You believe that Hashem will find you your significant other. Stop worrying what others think. Have faith in yourself and God and don’t buy into the theories, whether right or wrong, of others (that includes my theories and this advice as well, if you so choose).
rebetzin-
You’re right, many boys are very picky, I should know- I was one of them.
But I didn’t go complaining to shadchanim that they weren’t doing anything for me (I never even asked any shadchan to put my name on their list- they always got my name from somewhere/someone else).
(If a shadchan would threaten my mother that unless I (or at times one of my brothers) go out with whoever they were suggesting they would never call back, my mother would remind them that she never asked them to call in the first place. I don’t know of any shadchan that stopped calling.)
As my father told me many times while I was dating, “You weren’t put in this world to end the shidduch crisis (or even put a dent into it). Your responsibility is to marry the person who you feel will be the best wife for you and the best mother for your children.”
People are complaining that girls are too picky since it’s when the girls get older that people begin to notice the “shidduch crisis”, not when the guys get older.
jewishandworking22 – I never said that the Rabbonim have said a RULE, what they have done is publicize their Da’as Torah that shadchonim should attempt to make shidduchim amongst couples close in age. You don’t agree with them & feel that you can tell 60 Rabbonim what they can and can’t say.
Shaatra: I didn’t mean to scare you, I was just trying to tell you that as jews we have the obligation to pray for all of our singles wether boys or girls. I didn’t know you were single I thought you were married especially with the name Shaatra I thought you were running a full house by now. Anyway my best wishes to you and to all the singles out there. Hashem should guide them to their right zivug. Hope to hear good news soon.
estherh; “Boy should write a sefer etc” WHAT? If that is true, which I doubt, that takes the cake, and you want to tell me that girls aren’t picky???
That is like saying, boys demand that every girl should start her own organization & kiruv program, Like sarah Imeinu. with a minimum of at least 2 ppl they were mekarev.
Honestly though, this has to be the funniest thing i’ve heard since that
question in shidduchim, if they collect the dishes from the Shabbos table
clockwise or counterclockwise, or if the bocher was an animal, what sort of animal
would he be?
NASI = North American Shidduch Initiative
cholentkugelkishke:
“what they have done is publicize their Da’as Torah that shadchonim should attempt to make shidduchim amongst couples close in age. You don’t agree with them & feel that you can tell 60 Rabbonim what they can and can’t say. “
I don’t feel I can tell anyone anything.I beleive that everyone should whatever they want and learn from the mistakes made. It is called growing up. In yeshivish society, they don’t believe in maturing. And they like to have someone to blame all their failures. In my opinion, I think that the proclamation would do more harm than good. But that is just my opinion.
And, you still have not answered my question: If your Rav advises you to do something would you listen to him or not? Why do you think my “moshol” is bad? I was always of the impression if a Rav advises his constituents then they should listen, isn’t that the point of a Rav? To guide?
here is an alternate perspective…
HOW DO YOU DECIDE WHO TO MARRY?
(1) You got to find somebody who likes the same stuff. Like, if you like
sports, she should like it that you like sports, and she should keep the
chips and dip coming. — Alan, age 10
(2) No person really decides before they grow up who they’re going to
marry. God decides it all way before, and you get to find out later who
you’re stuck with. — Kirsten, age 10
WHAT IS THE RIGHT AGE TO GET MARRIED?
(1) Twenty-three is the best age because you know the person FOREVER by
then. — Camille, age 10
(2) No age is good to get married at. You got to be a fool to get married. — Freddie, age 6 (very wise for his age)
HOW CAN A STRANGER TELL IF TWO PEOPLE ARE MARRIED?
(1) You might have to guess, based on whether they seem to be yelling at the
same kids. — Derrick, age 8
WHAT DO MOST PEOPLE DO ON A DATE?
(1) Dates are for having fun, and people should use them to get to know each
other. Even boys have something to say if you listen long enough. — Lynnette, age 8 (isn’t she a treasure)
(2) On the first date, they just tell each other lies and that usually gets
them interested enough to go for a second date. — Martin, age 10 (wise beyond his years)
WHAT WOULD YOU DO ON A FIRST DATE THAT WAS TURNING SOUR?
(1) I’d run home and play dead. The next day I would call all the
newspapers and make sure they wrote about me in all the dead columns. — Craig, age 9
IS IT BETTER TO BE SINGLE OR MARRIED?
(1) It’s better for girls to be single but not for boys. Boys need someone
to clean up after them. — Mike Schaffer, age 4 (bless you child)
And the #1 Favorite is……..
HOW WOULD YOU MAKE A MARRIAGE WORK?
(1) Tell your wife that she looks pretty, even if she looks like a truck. — Ricky, age 10
jewishandworking22 – now I understand that you disagree with the entire “yeshivish society” as you like to describe it. So, your issue really isn’t with this Kol Korei, but with the society in general.
Allow me to give you a Moshol that is similar to this situation: A business owner was advised by a group of Rabbonim that it would be helpful to provide the products that he sells to people who are having a hard time obtaining them. The Rabbonim never told him he can’t sell to other customers. He was just asked, that if he can, he should try to assist the customers who are having a difficult time getting the items that he sells.
If I was that business owner – I would try to listen – of course, only if the sale makes sense – to the Rabbonim.
Your Moshol about the Eruv is a Halachic question. The issue at hand isn’t a Halachic one – there’s no Halacha in Shulchan Aruch to pasken from.
The age gap issue is one that is based on numbers. 60 Rabbonim were shown how there is a problem with our current shidduch scene. They all agreed that if they advise shadchonim to attempt – if the shidduch makes sense – to make shidduchim amongst couples close in age, this will help improve the current shidduch problem. They never wrote to only make such shidduchim. And they never wrote anything more than what they feel will make a difference. To claim otherwise is incorrect.
Your dislike for the “yeshivish society” may want to make you disagree with what they have said. But, if you read what I wrote – you will see what are the true facts as to what the Rabbonim really wrote.
cholentkugelkishke:
Thank you.
So, in the end we agree that a kol korei is just advice and not halacha, I am all for that.
Just for the record, I do disagree with a lot of the ways the “yeshivish society” conducts itself as a whole (there are always exceptions). Kol korei’s do not bother me, as long as they do not affect me personally.
In regards to me “disagreeing” with the “60 rabbonim”: If they based there “advice” on facts then I would agree and follow there kol korei.
However, if they base it on their opinion, and these days that usually means the opinion of some over zealous individual who wants people to be as machmir as him or even more so, and not their own, that I won’t follow.
jewishandworking22 – I’m happy that we can agree to disagree, and go home and be friends!
Just for the record – I think the Rabbonim were given facts – numbers, etc. and based the Kol Korei on that. It’s a pretty simple cheshbon if you look at the numbers that there are so many girls in shidduchim and a shortage of boys. This is partially because there’s a large age gap between when the girls start dating as opposed to when the boys begin. So, based on that, they are encouraging shadchonim to try – if possible – to try to make shidduchim amongst couples close in age, which will even out the numbers.
cholentkugelkishke:
You wrote:”Just for the record – I think the Rabbonim were given facts – numbers, etc. and based the Kol Korei on that. It’s a pretty simple cheshbon if you look at the numbers……….”
The following is my reply (none of these are my words, but words of statisticians and people throughout time):
“There are three kinds of lies: lies, d**ned lies, and statistics.”
Benjamin Disraeli (1804 – 1881)
“Statistician: A man who believes figures don’t lie, but admits that under analysis some of them won’t stand up either.”
“Statistics: The only science that enables different experts using the same figures to draw different conclusions.”
EDITED
jewishandworking22 – you stick with them and I will stick with Rabbonim.
But, at the end of the day – these aren’t statistics. Each bas yisroel – and there are HUNDREDS of them – that is single isn’t a statistic. When the Rabbonim hear from both girls and their parents how hard the shidduch parsha is, and they see a way to help them – they sign onto a Kol Korei.
Jh22:
In other words you think that the 60 R”Y were hoodwinked into believing
A) that the population is growing considerably b”h.
B) girls start dating a good couple of years before the boys
C) that A)+B) equals a HUGE problem.
I’m just wondering where do you personally stand on A, B and C.
AZ,
Once again, you are putting words into the mouths of the Rabbonim that they have never uttered or written in their suggestions on this issue. You’ve done the same before, with taking Torah learners out of the Yeshiva’s in EY, and now you are putting “reasons” why the Rabbonin made their suggestions.
The Rabbonim never gave all the reasons you did for their letter with the suggestions. And certainly not how you’ve presented it.
Let’s call a spade a spade. These reasons are from YOUR mind, not the Rabbonim’s.
AZ:
Without hard numbers (and I mean census data, studies, interviews, etc….)I agree and hope that the population is growing. So I personally agree with point “A”.
Again, without hard numbers (and I mean census data, studies, interviews, etc….)I do not agree entirely with statement “B”. I find that some girls date right out of high school/seminary (I know of some cases when the girl got engaged during 12th grade (not chasidish). But, I also know of girls that are mature and decide that they want to set themselves up, either financially or emotionally, before they start dating, and they wait. (Both examples I gave the girls come from “yeshivish” families and communities.
Same goes for boys. I had a number of guys in my 12th grade class that got married within the first year after high school (I believe the number was 7 out 45). Six years later, I would have to say that about 80% of my grade is married (ballpark figure, I do not have my yearbook in front of me). I went to a very Yeshivish school as well.
To answer point “C”; I disagree that it “equals a HUGE problem.” I don’t believe that their is a problem. I am not saying that girls and boys are getting married “left and right”. However, I believe that is because the individuals in the “parsha” got the “short end of the stick” when it comes to a shidduch system that does not work.
If the boys and girls truly want to get married they would do so on their own without relying on others. I truly do believe that their is enough boys for girls, and vice versa.
There is a famous quote: “If you want something done right, do it yourself”.
MM: you are hysterical. I actually know the people who spoke to many of the R”Y and discussed with them the numbers. But I guess you’re right. The Rabbonim probably suggested more close in age shidduchim for the fun of it not because of any numerical data suggesting that therein lies the key to alleviating the situation. HELLO. Anyone home??
JH22:
Point “B”: There is no scientific data on when boys and girls start dating. In “right wing” schools (I strongly dislike such classifications but) for lack of a better term it is pretty clear that the overwhelming majority of girls begin dating shortly after returning from seminary HS+1. Whereas the boys don’t start dating until 22/23 which HS+5. This is not an ABSOLUTE rule just a very very common practice. Do you deny this?
Point “c”: Problem is subjective. In my world and in the world of the R”Y who signed the letter the present situation with many many girls having no shot to get married- that’s a huge problem.
I’m just curious why it seems that so many more girls seem to get the “short end” than the boys.
In summation: you write “I truly do believe that their is enough boys for girls, and vice versa.”. you are WRONG, no two ways about it. This isn’t about beliefs- it’s about reality.
No AZ, it is you and your made up unaccountable numbers that are wrong.
AZ:
If you read my answer to point “B” then you would have seen “interviews, etc…”. But even so, maybe one should d o a study and find out when the average “right wing” graduate (or almost graduate) starts to date.
In regards to your world, I do not know which one you and the rabbonim live in, in which you state “The present situation with many many girls having no shot to get married” i believe is erroneous. If the girls want to get married then they would “have a shot” at doing so. Perhaps the system they are using is flawed?
You wrote “I’m just curious why it seems that so many more girls seem to get the “short end” than the boys.” I believe that it is boys and girls get the “short end” equally. However, the boys do not make as much of a big deal of it as the girls. I believe, and from what I hear from my sisters and my friends, is that girls plan their whole single life to get married, they dress up and play “marriage when they are younger, etc… While boys do not think of marriage until their teenage years at minimum.
And finally, “In summation: you write “I truly do believe that their is enough boys for girls, and vice versa.”. you are WRONG, no two ways about it. This isn’t about beliefs- it’s about reality. “
Please bring proof that there are more girls than boys. According to the U.S. census there are actually 51 girls to 49 boys. This should apply to all classes and ethnicities. Which, therefore, proves my point.
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