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but i won’t bore you with the details.
Why the change in approach? 😉
AZ: Are you against 19 and 20 year old girls dating and marrying?
To all defenders of heavyset girls: I have a close friend who is a redhead. Many girls have said no straight off the bat because they don’t like redheads. How is that any different than a guy saying no cuz he wants a skinny wife? Yes, there’s no guarantee she will stay skinny after childbirth, but odds are a size 2 20 year old will be skinnier at 30 than a size 12.
All those in favor of making weight a very important requirement (requiring a skinny girl), I take it you would similarly be in full support of a guy who insists on marrying a blonde girl.
Right?
but odds are a size 2 20 year old will be skinnier at 30 than a size 12.
but she won’t be happier 😛
farrocks: It’s one thing when a guy is ONLY attracted to a small niche of girls (blonds). It’s a completely different story when a guy is attracted to any type BESIDES for a small percentage of girls (overweight).
To all those claiming that ANYWAYS the size 2 girl will be a size 20 in 20 years:
A man must be attracted to the woman he marries, and not the woman she will be in 20 years from then. The reason is simple. Before you get married, you don’t actually love each other. Without being attracted physically no one would ever get married aside for a couple tzaddikim.
After one gets married, when the real love begins to grow, only then can the husband not care about looks. This is because after he has lived with such an amazing person for years, he grows more attracted to his wife’s internal features; her soul and kindness, and less caring about her looks.
That is the reason why old people aren’t getting divorced by the truckload.
Physical attraction is like a car ignition. The ignition sparks the engine to life and dies out. The engine keeps running on it’s own. Physical attraction is the spark for love. Once the love is running strong, the physical attraction can die out.
For those who learn daf yomi….nun ches amud beis….in the zman hagemara women WANTED to look fat, they had tachshitin for such a purpose.
Whiteberry: u can imagine wht meant to be fat in those days!! It was misprobably size 4 or 6!! What we call healthy!! In those days they didn’t eat the foods we eat!!! They lived on fruits and vegetables!
Where are all these girls in their 30s; are they not attractive? I’m in my 50s, never married & have a full time job. I am constantly introduced to women who are grandmothers already. I’ve let my beard grow because I daven in a Chabad. Maybe if I cut my beard the younger women might be interested.
farrocks: It’s one thing when a guy is ONLY attracted to a small niche of girls (blonds). It’s a completely different story when a guy is attracted to any type BESIDES for a small percentage of girls (overweight).
Really? There is no difference. Explain why you mistakenly thought there is a difference if it is “ONLY” includes a certain group instead of excluding a certain group.
don’t think that people who only want blondes is a real thing, just something picked up from the goyim. (I don’t even like blondes)
Exactly! And wanting a thin girl is also something people picked up from the goyim.
[Non-thin] though is definitely a legitimate issue
So it brunettes.
Farrocks, the blond issue is a little odd as his wife will be wearing a sheitel.
Not when they’re alone.
Taking your point to its next conclusion, why should it matter that she’s not thin. She’ll be wearing a dress hiding her weight.
I think that’s different.
Ain l’hitvakeiach, im taam v’im reiach.
Farrocks, Hashem created different people with different looks. He also created people with various looks they find attractive. No man should be forced to marry a woman he isn’t attracted to. Are the men who don’t like skinny girls also shallow? Or is it only the ones who don’t like the heavier girls?
Exactly! And the guy who insists he is attracted to only marrying a blonde is no more or less shallow than the men who insist he is attracted to only marry a notably thin girl.
Farrocks- no one is saying that the ONLY thing that matters is weight, only that weight matters (to many). Being that there are many, many, good girls who don’t have a weight problem, a sane person will choose a girl that is best for him. Because there are far fewer blonde girls, that makes it far more likely that a boy would have to sacrifice ANOTHER important quality, to get his blonde. That would likely be shallow.
You can’t honestly say that a boy who is attracted to blondes, and chooses a blonde over a non-blonde with all other thing equal is shallow. He is wise, and sane. To do otherwise would be insane. It would be like choosing 99 dollars over 100.
It is sad for many girls, especially those with no fault involved. Just like it is sad that there are poor, ugly, sick, and handicapped girls. But shallow? Try sane.
The key is not to say: I will only marry a _______ (fill in the blank with blond, skinny, etc.) But, one IS entitled to say: I am not attracted to skinny/blond/tall/green-eyed/ girls. There is a difference between the two.
Farrocks- no one is saying that the ONLY thing that matters is weight, only that weight matters (to many). Being that there are many, many, good girls who don’t have a weight problem, a sane person will choose a girl that is best for him.
I totally agree with you! No one is saying that the ONLY thing that matters is being blonde, only that being blonde matters (to many). Being that there are many good blonde girls, a sane person will choose a girl that is best for him.
Because there are far fewer blonde girls, that makes it far more likely that a boy would have to sacrifice ANOTHER important quality, to get his blonde. That would likely be shallow.
Not true. There are so many very very good blonde girls. Blonde girls are so good and the blondes to not force you to sacrifice other good qualities that blondes also have within them.
You can’t honestly say that a boy who is attracted to blondes, and chooses a blonde over a non-blonde with all other thing equal is shallow. He is wise, and sane. To do otherwise would be insane.
Completely agree.
It is sad for many girls, especially those with no fault involved. Just like it is sad that there are poor, ugly, sick, and handicapped girls.
Well, then, I guess you would also say that it’s also sad that other girls aren’t blonde.
By the way, why do you say that it is sad that many girls aren’t thin? Why are you assuming that not being thin is bad — and even comparing girls who aren’t size 0 to “poor, ugly, sick, and handicapped girls”?
Not being thin isn’t bad at all. Many would say it is even very good.
Farrocks: Not being thin isn’t bad at all. Many would say it is even very good.
I hate to get ad hominem, but you are so irrational in so many posts here, that it sounds like you are defending yourself.
If you’re fat, we don’t hate you. There’s nothing to rationalize.
I love it how when a girl is fat, she’ll scream bloody murder how life isn’t fair, that all guys are animals, shallow, disgusting, valueless etc. But when you set up that same girl with a bunch of fat guys, instead of being thankful, she will start having a fit about how she only gets set up with fat guys!
Who’s really shallow? Those with the double standards!
i cannot believe you guys call your selves ben torah and speak about women in this way. i understand that attraction is important but is for sure not even close to the most important factor.
AZ your comment seems convincing enough but what solution do you suggest maybe encourage men to marry earlier?
Who called himself a ben torah? Because it has the name yeshiva in the title?
ok… you are not frum yet you have an interest in a website called theyeshivaworld and in shiduchim?
if it makes you happy i’ll change ben torah to observant jew
Nem621 – men are animals. I’m just trying to say that once that fact is dealt with, people can move on and make sane decisions. The question is whether physical appearance is the most important factor, or one of the most important factors. This depends on the guy. Deal with it.
not all men are animals proof is my comment i am a guy although i am not in shiduch age.
Frumnotyeshivish
Men are not animals. Certainly not most frum men. All rational discussion goes out the window when people make extreme statements like that one. Since you are a female you will never understand the male psyche and how our system works. Instead of knocking men you should open your mind and understand that Hashem purposely created men this way so that they should have a desire to get married and keep the world going. At the same time a man has to keep himself in check but unfortunately we live at a time of many nisyonos. However at the end of the day a man should only get married to someone he is attracted to. Frankly I dont even understand the girls who complain about this stuff. You really want a guy to go against the way Hashem him and marry you even if he isnt attracted to you? You think that will lead to a happy and fulfilled marriage? A person must marry a spouse that they find attractive. If for that person attractive means a certain weight, height hair color whatever it is their right and you should respect it. I dont tell girls what to like so they have no business telling me what to like.
P.s. Girls are plenty picky about looks too. I know overweight guys who have a hard time getting dates. Girls are plenty busy with guys looks height and hair color way of dressing and all that as well.
WIY, I don’t think frumnotyeshivish is a girl…
Oneofmany
Then he should speak for himself and say “I am an animal” its ridiculous to call men animals and its damaging if a girl thinks guys are animals. Theres nothing beneficial in this from a frum perspective. If you are a non Jewish guy then yes you probably want girls to think that so that when you are unfaithful you have the excuse ready “what do you want from me we are animals we cant help it…” I would also hope most non Jewish men would be insulted by being called animals but I have no doubt some take pride in being called one.
I am a happily married man. I was using animals as an expression that would help illustrate the point I was making. I think I first heard this expression from Rabbi Orlofsky in one of his famous shiurim. Either way, don’t be so sensitive.
frumnotyeshivish
I think he said it in the platonic relationship shiur and he was referring to teenage boys who hangout with girls. Most frum Yeshiva boys who hit shidduch age are out of that mode of thought and behavior and if they arent they shouldnt be dating for marriage yet…
He was referring to all men. You are an idealist. You think that: a) dating men should try not to have physical thoughts; b) because they shouldn’ t many don’t; and c) we should focus on those that act “correctly.”
The first assumption is partly correct, but the second is entirely wrong making the third one irrelevent.
frumnotyeshivish
Incorrect. I believe that just because a man has physical thoughts it does not make him an animal. Additionally Im sure there are times women have physical thoughts and it doesnt make them animals either. Furthermore I believe that a man is fully capable of being on a date and keeping his thoughts under control.
i’m a bais yaakov graduate, and i definitely learned in a context that ”men are animals” from both a male and a female teacher. And it wasnt said to scare us, and it didnt, because it was explained.
I’m going to take the opposite side.
I have heard from many, including B’shem Rabbi Mordechai Finkelman, that the absolute most critical part of dating for a guy is to make sure that he is attracted to the girl. In fact, it is a Gemorah (begining of the second perek of Keddushin), that the man must see the woman to marry her, to make sure that he is attracted.
That means, that the man SHOULD think on a date if he will appreciate all aspects of being married to this woman (V’Hamavin Yovin). If he will not, then he should drop her immediately.
P.S. Women should really do the same, but since physicality is less significant for women in most cases, it is less critical.
P.P.S. IMHO, part of the “divorce crisis” is the lack of attraction that occurs after the first 6 months, or after the first child. It really does solve most “couple” problems when you have a partner who you want to be with (also not from me, but from respected Rabbonim. I could quote the actual line, but the Mods would toss me for good (and rightfully so)).
frumnotyeshivish – Oh well, I suppose I must be an animal, I mean Dovid Orlofsky said so. And he said so in a humourous way. So it must be true. Look, I don’t know about you but I am a human being, so are all my male friends. I sat through Orlofsky’s comedy sketch on men and women with some friends and we all walked out not having a clue as to exactly which men he was referring to as animals. We even asked him after, his reply was “I’ve been a speaker for 20 years, I know what I’m talking about.” When I replied I’d been male for 23 years (at the time) and knew what I was talking about, he just ignored me. I really dislike this misandrist “men are animals” thing, yep we have teivas, but hey, so do women. I once walked past a group of girls who had gathered outside a wedding hall. They were looking at pictures on a camera, each girl saying a number from 1 to 10. As I passed close enough to figure out what they were doing I was surprised to learn that the pictures were of boys at the wedding – one of the girls had poked her camera through (or round) the mechitza to get pictures of them and the girls were now rating the boys. No boys I know, or knew, would have ever done anything near that. And apparently men are animals… Give me a break!
JMH – I completely disagree with you. I wrote a post explaining why, but it got censored. I’ll take the hint and stop posting in this thread.
When they say that someone is an animal, they are saying that the person’s focus is on the physical desires to an extreme.
No one seems to be complaining about those who go on at least one date and only afterward decide that the other’s looks are a turn off.
Remember the asifa last year? Looking at a picture before dating is an excuse to look at a female and have similar thoughts to what it is they were forbidding.
Going on a date, however, means that you have tried to like the other as a human being.
It is crucial that each find the other attractive but the aspect I find disgusting is in sending the picture.
Just like generalizing any group of people is racist, so too, saying that men or whoever are animals is generalizing and not necessarily true for all. I agree half and half. Some men can be animals, but some are definitely not. It goes for anything and everything in the world. No one should make assumptions and say all ___ are ____, because it’s never the case. There are always exceptions.
Interjection
If a boy is being redt 10 girls at the same time (I have 100s of resumes) and they all sound basically the same from similar homes hashkafos….so I should go on a date with every one of them? Or my parents should quit their jobs and spend the whole day on the phone looking into each girl until they narrow it down? The pictures do a very good job of letting me know if there’s a point to the date and saving my time my parents time and the girls time. We aren’t all looking for “models” we just all have different “taste” in who we find attractive. Its pretty standard to send pictures and most people do it. (I have gotten pictures of Rabbis daughters and very yeshivish girls). The only ones who were reluctant were usually rather unattractive and would rather that their friends lie and say she’s attractive so I would have to find out on the date that I was lied to.
Just go out and stop researching everyone to death. Meet any girls who sounds like she might be shayach. Pictures lie, some people who are gorgeous do not photograph well, some look great in pics but not in person AND SO WHAT????? The emphasis on seeing the pics to see if the girl is attractive, is a terrible chisaron in our frum society today. For people who are so worried about tznius, this seems to me to be extremely counterproductive to fostering a climate of tznius. No one should be ogling girls’ pictures…
WIY IMO, you are so wrong. As oomis1105 said, some people just don’t photograph well. Does that mean that you’re going to look at a photograph and say, “I’m not interested in her because her nose looks too big in this picture” when really it’s just the unfortunate angle of the camera? Also, that is so not true that the only people that don’t want to give their picture are the ”unattractive” ones. It’s the girls that are disgusted by the fact that their picture will be provided to a boy and his parents, and they’ll decide if he’ll go out with you based on this tiny, little square of a picture instead of doing things the normal way-MEET EACH OTHER. I find that even on the dates that I’ve gone on with people that I either wasn’t attracted to physically, or we were just on different levels hashkafically in the end, I have learned something every single time, and have been able to find tune what I’m looking for, and what will work for me and what won’t. I honestly don’t think that going out with more then one person is so terrible-if anything, I think it will make you feel more solidified in your decision. I just think people have to stop being so critical and start being a little more open minded-things don’t have to be perfect from the first date for goodness sake.
WIY: What is your strategy? You’ve been comparing all against each other? That has to be overwhelming!
Why not read a resume and if it makes sense and she’s stable, go out. If you daven hard enough you’ll get your trophy wife.
“I have gotten pictures of Rabbis daughters and very yeshivish girls”
Those girls don’t realize that guys need beauty for other reasons than do girls. If they realized what you were trying to determine by looking at the picture, there’s not a chance in the world they would give you a picture.
fiddlesticks88
Baruch Hashem our population has boomed and there are many 100’s if not thousands of eligible girls that can be redt to the same pool of guys. A picture is one method of quickly cutting the numbers down. You dont understand, everyone is attracted to a particular look. I can have ten pictures of attractive girls and still only like the looks of one of them just like you can have ten pictures of boys and still only like the way one of them looks. There are just certain looks that appeal to us and there can be someone who others consider much better looking but to you this person is just not attractive to you. We all have a certain “brand” of looks we go for.
interjection
“Those girls don’t realize that guys need beauty for other reasons than do girls. If they realized what you were trying to determine by looking at the picture, there’s not a chance in the world they would give you a picture.”
I recommend you don’t get married based on your shittos because the guy who chooses to marry you will definitely take into the equation your physical beauty, and you will never know how much of a role that played in his decision. Its actually a requirement by the Torah that a man should be attracted to his wife and cant marry a girl before seeing her to see that she meets his approval.
“If they realized what you were trying to determine by looking at the picture”
I am trying to determine if I like how she looks. Is that insulting. I am dating because I am supposed to marry her if I like her right?!
WIY-your attempts at justification only make yourself seem more shallow, and make my point stronger. Yes, times have changed from when our grandparents and great grandparents got married. Yes, you need to be attracted to your spouse. But I think you’ll find that after you get to know someone, you may find yourself either more or less attracted to them. A boy or a girl can be the most beautiful person that you’ve ever seen, only to have a terrible personality as you get to know them better, and someone who is not as good looking as you imagine your spouse to be could have a heart of gold and would treat you right. Why can’t you just give people a CHANCE? Why do you NEED to see a picture and decide based on that? The justifications that shadchanim give for getting your picture (“I know, it’s so terrible, but what can you do? That’s the norm nowadays!”) is ridiculous. People like you are causing it to be the norm. Do you know how much it hurts a girl to know you’ve been rejected because you don’t have the perfect eye color that he’s looking for, or hair color? I have friends that have cried to me because of that, and it’s not ok. Give people a normal, decent, human chance. Do you pick your friends the same way? Get all the application pictures for the school, look through the pictures, and then decide who you’ll be friends and who you won’t be? And what if someone that you didn’t ”pre-approve” finds favor in your eyes and you end up really hitting it off? Then what? You’ll say no because you didn’t like the way he looked in his picture?
Yes, I understand that everyone is attracted to a certain look. But let’s face it-once you get down to it, you’re very rarely going to find an ”exotic beauty” like you would in the non-Jewish world. Most of the girls are going to have darker then lighter hair. Most of the girls are going to have slightly larger then average noses.
Your comment that you’ve seen super frum and daughters of roshei yeshiva’s pictures is just appalling. Why are you so proud of this fact? You should be ashamed that you’re saying this so factually. I can pretty much guarantee you that if they knew you were acting so blase about this, and that you were rejecting them based on their looks, they and their parents would be ashamed that they’d ever been suggested to you.
What do you think you’re gaining by publicizing that you’re essentially humiliating half the girls that are redt to you because they’re not pretty enough? Think about their feelings, and think about how shallow you’re making yourself. So she doesn’t have the exact nose that you envision your wife to have. So her hair is a little darker/lighter. Maybe instead focus a little more on her middos, her personality, whether she’ll make a good wife. Just because a girl is pretty doesn’t mean she’s a pretty person on the inside.
WIY, I do not disapprove of using pictures, but I think that you are abusing the practice – really at your expense more than anyone else’s.
In general, it is best to formulate a judgement of a person without intervening physical factors. When you find a person extraordinarily attractive, your judgement of them will be heavily skewed in their favor – not just in general, but you will actually think they are smarter, calmer, etc. I just read a study about this conducted in the military – personnel that got high ratings for their physical qualities consistently rated higher in every other category. And you can easily see how this applies in terms of relationships by looking at the pattern of celebrity relationships. They very often enter into dedicated relationships and marriages – not just casual flings – only to have them dissolve once they become acquainted with the person on a level beyond the good looks and the glamor.
So ideally, the most accurate assessment of a person’s non-physical qualities can only be obtained by doing research before you meet them (yay shidduch system), without any knowledge of their physical qualities. Notwithstanding, I do understand (not actually understand, but understand that there are things I don’t understand) that as a guy you want to make sure that there is potential for physical attraction in someone that is a potential spouse. So you find a girl that seems compatible on paper, and check the picture to make sure that potential is there. That way, you can get your assessment down and make sure you aren’t entering something that is otherwise doomed to failure.
So by doing what you say you are doing – piling up droves of pictures and finding the most attractive pick from a bunch of really attractive girls, don’t pretend that you’re going to come to any sort of rational decision. And don’t say that all other factors are equal. They aren’t, even if you think they are. And I’m not trying to romanticize the uniqueness of every individual – it is easily demonstrable that no two people are identical in temperament, regardless of how alike they seem. And by doing what you are doing, not only will you not come to any rational decision about whom to date, but you are ensuring that the non-physical qualities of the person you will likely choose will be decided almost completely by chance. Which might work out if you are very lucky…but do you really want to count on that?
So really, just keep in mind that the person you are hurting most by doing this is yourself.
Re thread title: I am still not married. Of course there is a shidduch crisis.
T613- Lol! That’s the spirit! 😉
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