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With the Democrats no longer supporting Israel and the Republicans inability to win elections, Israel has to do its battles alone. As much as we like to think that the Israeli army is in control they’re in trouble without the US as an ally. The math is that the Arab population keeps on growing while the liberals have less kids.
Mishna in A”Z states that the Avoda Zara of a Jew can never become batel, as Rav Aharon Kotler noted in this regard.
Sorry to tell you it was over 70 years ago…
sorry to tell you…it was OVER 70 years ago..
הרבה שלוחים למקום
The Zionist dream was to have a secular state free of frum Jews and independent of the goyim. At present it is losing on both point. Demographically, Hareidim are “drowning” the Zionists (and unlike many Palestinians who choose to emigrate, living elsewhere is not so attractive to Hareidim). Being independent of the goyim is still possible, but the secular Israelis won’t make the economic sacrifices, and the Hareidim aren’t anxious to incur hardship for a medinah whose leadership sees frum Jews as their misfortune.
But it could change. If frum Jews start to takeover, they would be willing to settle for a much lower standard of living. And as Israel becomes less westernized (i.e. more frum), it would be easier to ally with non-Jews in the Middle East who oppose the Iranian/ISIS/al Queda/Muslim Brotherhood brand of political Islam.
The Zionist Dream was stillborn. It was DOA from the outset.
The best gift of liberals to the world is they tend not to have children.
When is this nonsense going to end?
Referring to Israel as the “Zionists” is as silly as calling Americans the “Colonists”.
Hertzl, Ben Gurion, Jabotinsky, Weizmann, Ahad Ha’am, etc.. are no longer alive. The State of Israel is comprised of observant and non-observant Jews, the vast majority of whom, are not at all guided by the ideas of “secular Zionism”. Some are non-observant but nationalistic, while others are secular liberals. And the National Religious were always more motivated by the value of “Torat Eretz Yisrael” than anything written by some of the Zionist thinkers.
While they all have a different vision of what the State Israel should be.
Only a handfull still hold onto the dream of Ben Gurion, Golda Meir and others.
The majority are just Israeli Jews trying to live a life of peace, confort and prosperity.
This includes the liberals of Tel Aviv, the Yeshivas of Bnai Brak, the Settlers of Yehuda and Shomron and Kibbutzim of the Gallil.
Criticizing the Jews of Israel from some Jewish enclave, like Brooklyn, Lakewood, Baltimore or New Square is not going to hasten the Geula. The only thing that can bring the complete and final Geula is…
” עם ישראל בארץ ישראל על פי תורת ישראל ”
The dream of all believing Jews is to return to Eretz Yisroel as promised in the Torah and stipulated in the first Rashi in Chumash. Anyone without this belief / dream is not a fully faithful Jew.
The Zionist dream is in its middle stages. The establishment of the State of Israel was just one part of it, and it will ultimately lead to the fulfillment of the full dream – the arrival of Mashiach, the Bayis Shlishi, and the acceptance of Hashem by the entire world.
So no, the dream is not over. There have always been rough times in Jewish history, but as we said just a few weeks ago, “Hakadosh Baruch Hu matzileinu miyadam.” Do you think Biden’s support or lack of support affects things in the long run? We have Hashem on our side, and that’s all we need!DaMoshe:
The Zionist nightmare is in its final stage before that idol is confined to the dust-bin of history. On a different note, Mashiach and the third temple have zero to do with Zionism. – in fact, Zionism was and is intended to replace Judaism.The Zionist dream was over the moment they realized that that the world hates Jews and would not let them live in peace in their own country.
The Neturei Karta dream ended as well- Hashem has shown His hand that He will not allow the yidden of Eretz Yisroel to be destroyed.
So we have this status quo where nobody is happy.So learn Torah and do mitzvos, let Hashem take care of the politics.
@chaim_baruch
the zionist dream is two part: 1) the heresy of “kochi v’otzem yadi”, the belief that Jews can protect themselves with guns and wars and an army (not with tefila, tzeduka, tshuva), and 2) that Jews have a national identity that is not “those who keep the Torah covenant”, rather it is some other pseudo-ethnic nationality.Both those ideas are alive
chaim_baruch:
When is this Zionist idolatry and silliness going to end? Denial is not only a river in nearby Egypt.
Israel is very much the Zionist State. Zionism is the heretical ideology that still very much drives that State.
Specifically, the heresy of Zionism – like redefining the Jewish people from Torah-based to land-based – is very much the current ideology of all flavors of Zionist idolatry, irreligious and otherwise.
“Zionist state” is a term used by holier than thou frum yidden who are too settled in shmutz laaretz to pay attention to the
King’s calling his children back to His palace. And that palace Eretz Yisroel is sometimes referred to as tzion as in בשוב ה׳ את ציון. And anyone who is foolish enough to think that American weapons have any effect whatsoever on the safety and security of Hashem’s palace and people should re-examine their emunah.
Just come home.dbrim:
“Zionist state” is a term used by normal frum yidden who believe in the Torah and also not in the idolatry and heresy of Zionism.Unlike your “Religious Zionist” (which Rav Elchonon Wasserman HY”D labeled as “Idolatry mixed with religion”) propaganda, Hashem has not yet called us back to His palace; that is of course for what frum Jews daven thrice daily: “Teka biShofar gadol….”
It is also gravely forbidden for Jews to emigrate en masse to E”Y (as opposed to small groups/individuals) and it is also forbidden for Jews to take political power there as the Zionists have done, of course. The Zionists have also fought against the Torah and inflicted tremendous harm and damage on Hashem’s children, Klal Yisrael.
LerntminTayrah:
The Zionist slander of NK is absurd. Their methods are problematic, but their message is simply the Torah’s message: the Zionists do not represent Jews and Jews are not liable for anything the Zionists do. The NK never ever asked anyone to destroy the Jews of E”Y, and it is absurd to even suggest that.HaKatan, when will you realize that not all Zionists are the same? Your claims may have been true for many of the founders of Israel in the 1940s, but it isn’t true today. Look at the number of baalei teshuva in Israel! Look at the videos of the soldiers davening, of the commanders leading their units in tefillah before they go into Gaza. Read the shailos coming in from soldiers, who want to know exactly how to conduct themselves while in active combat situations!
Most Israelis are no longer anti-religious. The dream of a Jewish homeland filled with Jews who are shomer Shabbos is alive and well! “Kochi v’otzem yadi” is barely heard anymore in the IDF – now we hear them being mekabel Ol Malchus Shamayim!Hakatan, when NK march with those who want to destroy Israel, it certainly is a message that they want to destroy Israel. When the author of a popular antiZionist book goes on goyishe podcasts and shows to denounce Israel, he is certainly trying to destroy Israel.
Not only is “the dream” not over, it is what will save all of you in chu”l. When your world comes crashing down you will be thankful you have a safe haven to run to.
All big talkers influenced by todays zealot kanyous in style brands. After the war noone else wanted us and Israel was the place to go. Speak to your grandparents who were survivors. notice they almost all were pro zionisim. They went through ghenim and understood. Its easy to sit in the USA and be a hot head. It comes from immaturity just like the naïve ceasefire protestors. what do you really know about zionism?
Here are some fun facts; R Kook z”l was R shloma zalman z’l and R Elyahsiv’s rebbe. Many gedolim held like him although hard to know if most. We do know that MOST gedolim held of him including the chafetz chaim who wanted to make peace between him and R Chaim S.
I know gedolim made all kinds of statements. But at the end of the day most of them were really just against the secular nature of the state vs the concept of taking it back or the 3 shavous. Yes they will say different but thats the real truth.
Re today, these are just tinok shneshbos who no longer look to shamd. Stop it with this “zionist’ nonsense
Chaim87:
More Zionist Kool-Aid. After the war, the Zionists pushed the survivors to serve as fodder for their “State”-to-be, branding them as “traitors” if they went instead to America, which many did. The sick irony of that is that those same Zionists lobbied governments against allowing in those very same Jews into their countries which meant that those survivors and their dead relatives were sent to Hitler’s ovens and camps instead.Here are some fun facts: almost all gedolim leveled extremely harsh criticism against Rabbi Kook – either personally or his works. Both Rav Elchonon Wasserman (Kovetz Maamarim) and the Satmar Rav called Rabbi Kook a “rasha gamur”. The Satmar Rav called him a lot more than that, too. As did Rav Yosef Yedid in Shearis Yosef, who titled the piece “Regarding an Apikores about whom we must protest”. The Chofetz Chaim also did not hold of Rabbi Kook, as any Brisker (and others) can tell you.
Regardless, Rabbi Kook never permitted war, and he died well before the Zionists fought their first “real” war (as opposed to their prior acts of terror and mischief) in 1948.
Regarding the shevuos, both the Brisker and Satmar Rabbanim stated that the State violated not only the shevuos but “kol haTorah kulah”. Practically speaking, they were obviously gravely concerned about its assault on Torah and Jews. But that in no way diminishes all the other halachic problems with that “State”.
Regarding today, of course they look to shmad. Zionism is shmad and they are promoting Zionism. They’re not “tinokos sheNishbu” in their “am chafshi” paradise which happens to have shuls, yeshivas and even “Religious Zionist” institutions, all over the country. That’s really not a tenable argument.
jacoby211:
Nope. We (as in Jews who follow the Torah) have a mesorah from the gaon and Rav Chaim Volozhin that the last station in galus will be America. As well, there are various rather frightening prophecies about what will happen in E”Y when Mashiach comes. Finally, the Zionist “State” is such an abomination that it is liable to disappear any day, especially as it reduces its support of Torah and increases its assault on the Torah and the Jews.
Netzach Yisrael lo yishaker!DaMoshe:
The teshuva from Zionist shmad that is taking place is great. But that pig, like all pigs, is still treif, and will always be so. That “State” is forbidden by G-d for multiple severe reasons. Period. That “State” is Zionist, which is idolatry and heresy, and therefore it still exists specifically to shmad the Jewish people and redefine Judaism, which has not changed at all, even if more people put on tefillin and believe in Hashem.Katan purports to speak in the name of the Torah .
He is a fraud.If he would be honest ,he would quote THE FULL gamut of the Torah in an accurate way.
He doesn’t, because he is serving an idol .His idol is his brainwashed shitah.
So much for idol worship.
.Someone here is living in an alternate universe. Or has been hiding in a cave for a few decades. The secular Jews of Hertzyl’s movement and Ben Gurion’s political cohort are long gone. In our current existence, 40% of eligible young people in Tel Aviv are draft dodgers, they’re be happy to live in LA. Today’s “Zionists”learn in the Mir, stay here for 2, 4, 6, and sometime more years, and support E”Y through their limud Hatorah. In less than 50 years, we chareidim/chassidim will be the largest demographic here. In 1948. the world voluntarily handed over our land to us. מאת ה׳ יצא הדבר. You and the Niturei Karta hold of a very small minority-backed view that rov haposkim do not. The Niturei Karta today stand with, and repeat the mantras of the groups that wish to annihilate over 6 million Jews living in E”Y, and you are trying to be melamed zchus on these rishuim. This is the truth and the only truth that exists for those that serve Hashem b’neemanus: There is no Zionist State; there is only Eretz Yisroel.
And you sir are slandering Hashem’s land just like the miraglim.Hakaton is indeed engaged in katnanut.
“NK’s message is simply the Torah’s message” – Really? Which Torah message are they fulfilling?
A) ואהת לרעך כמוך
B) והורשתם את הארץ וישבתם בה
C) ולא תחללו את שם קדשיThis conversation is Hilarious! (really not, all of Am Yisrael worldwide is in סכנה) Instead of worrying about the Zionist dream, maybe you should be concerned about the American dream. You may be in worse situation than us here in E”Y. Like jacoby 211 says, you may end up here faster than you think under not such great conditions since you didnt prepare yourselves. When there is a crisis in the US all these dumb hashkafos go down the drain and all you medina bashers will be the first ones to run to the tzionishe medina.
?
When I was a young child growing up in America in the 50’s, every Sunday morning my father z”l would read aloud from the New York Times, all the headlines pertaining to news in Israel, installing in our hearts a caring feeling for Israel. As I grew up I continued to follow events about Israel. In my early adulthood, I began to also take on Mitzvahs and eventually moved to Israel with our young family in 1983.
Our pride in the IDF to protect us in what we always said “never again” was blown away on Oct. 7, 2024. We see that Hashem can blind our leaders, despite our military strength, and even hurt us in ways reminiscent of the Shoah, right under our noses.
We as a people lost a lot of confidence in the ability of our government to protect us. We learned we could not rely on the military might of Israel and cracks were formed in our impermeable Zionist Ideology.
This Yom Atzmaut was not joyous as in early years and certainly not a day to make barbeques in the parks with our families and enjoy fireworks. So many families are suffering loss, displacement, mental disease and continual pain , all of which overshadows all the political banal speeches about how we must keep fighting and destroy the enemy.
No one is fooled. The loss we suffered was a wake-up moment. The “never again” cry has been muffled.
In realizing this, we embark hopefully in a better direction, based on the knowledge that only Hashem can redeem us.When I was a young child growing up in America in the 50’s, every Sunday morning my father z”l would read aloud from the New York Times, all the headlines pertaining to news in Israel, installing in our hearts a caring feeling for Israel. As I grew up I continued to follow events about Israel.
Our pride in the IDF to protect us in what we always said “never again” was blown away on Oct. 7, 2024. We see that Hashem can blind our leaders, despite our military strength, and even hurt us in ways reminiscent of the Shoah, right under our noses.
We as a people lost a lot of confidence in the ability of our government to protect us. We learned we could not rely on the military might of Israel and cracks were formed in our impermeable Zionist Ideology.
This Yom Atzmaut was not joyous as in early years and certainly not a day to make barbeques in the parks with our families and enjoy fireworks. So many families are suffering loss, displacement, mental disease and continual pain , all of which overshadows all the political banal speeches about how we must keep fighting and destroy the enemy.
No one is fooled. The loss we suffered was a wake-up moment. The “never again” cry has been muffled.
In realizing this, we embark hopefully in a better direction, based on the knowledge that only Hashem can redeem us.There are hundreds of thousands of yidden in Eretz yisroel who hate Zionism and everything it stands for . They, like us, daven that the secular zionist state be replaced with a malchus beis dovid.
But considering Israel just celebrated birthday #76, at some point the Empty Wagon bandwagoners need to admit that perhaps Hashem doesn’t hate the Toshvei Eretz Yisroel as much as they do. As the famous anti-Zionist Rav Moshe Shternbuch shlita, gaavad of the Badatz Eida Hachareidis just said, Hashem is protecting Eretz Yisroel from Iran. This despite Neturei Karta meeting with Iranian leaders and begging them to attack Israel. The Zionist state needs to go but Hashem has taken sides here as per Rav Shternbuch. Not with the zionists chas veshalom but with the tzaddikim who are toshvei Eretz Yisroel and being mekayem the mitzvah of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel. If Hashem would have allowed it , the Satmar Rebbe zt”l would have been successful in one of his 2 attempts to move there, and then everyone would root for the safety of the toshvei Eretz Yisroel. Nu, it wasn’t meant to be.
Netanyahu just started putting on tefillin. IYH with all secular Israelis along with shemiras shabbos. Then we could be zoiche to the geula sheleima.@HaKatan
Forgive me for saying this but you have revisionist history. you take the classic millennial approach similar lehvadil to the free Palestine folks who know noting but whats feed to them at the moment. Today its very in style be Satmar or Brisk. But the truth is that 75 years ago those were extreme right positions and not mainstream of klal yisroel . They were huge gedolim and holy jews. I will not knock these tzadkim in any manner. But there were the “das Yachid”. Even the way you knock my views as “zioniat propoganda ” as if I am a tzioni when i am not and have never followed them is just kind of bniave 2024 talk without studying the facts. Yes sure you have R Elchanon too, but thats about it.Let get the chafetz chaim and the fake news and lies that you repeat over form brisk without verifying. The FACT is that in 1923 at the aguda convention the Chafetz chaim walked out as a protest because someone came to bashmutz R kook. He refused to go back in for the rest of the convention despite schlepping there as an older man already. Every older yeruhslami knows that the Chafetz chaim tried to come to EY. One of his big goals was to visit R kook and make peace between him and R Sonnefled z’l. Its well known that the kanoim say its beshert that he didn’t make it because if the C chaim made it to EY there would be no kanoim left. The mekublaim said that had the C chaim came he would have made shalom and moshiach would have come. R Kook, shver, the aderes helped the Chaim write his sefer about yidden drafted in the army. After the aderes was niter the C chaim asked R kook to help him. So don’t sell me buba masses about the C chaim and R kook. These are facts.
(Side note, an older yershlaumi yid told me that at his fathers chasna both R kook and R yosef chaim sat together and were shmuzing. This is despite his alleged cherem. I don;t think he is lying about his own fathers wedding)Re R Kook and a “war”, not a single war in Israel was made by choice., You make it sound like oh we went out to capture. Every war Israel ever fought was forced upon us. Anyone would permit that.
Let me also say that many mnay gedolim held of a state whether its Rizyhner rebas, R ytizchok elchnanon, the dvar avraham and even later on people like the rav of yeshulaim who wrote a famous sefer (forgot his name now). R hsraga feivel medleovitch made a bracha when the medina was founded. Punvitcha Rav said hallel with an israeli flag. At the punivitch chanukas hbayis in 1953, all zionist leaders were invited and one even spoke. Many mnay gedollim were preseent too. I can list so many more gedolim who held of a state. But thats beside the point. tTe overwhelming majority held once its here, we need need to support it and that the good outweighs the bad.
Re the 3 shavous, again stamar and Brisk were a das yachid. When he took on the R Hirsch zl shita of shalosh shavous it was a huge chiddish. There are many ways to answer that such as that its agaddata, its only when goyim keep it too etc. (Its also funny that in the USA Stamar isn’t scared to take land from the state of NY. But OK.)
Re Todays zionists, again you have no clue what kind of rasha Ben Gurion was, looking to kidnap jewish kids just to shmad them. He hated anyone frum. Today the fight is simply that frum people fight and share the burden. Yes its a fair arguemnt to say that we learn torah and that we can’t share a burden with secular people. But lets not get carried away and call that shmad.
HaKatan
I love how you quote R Chaim Volzhin. Many zioniosts came out of the yeshiva . the chovai tzion movment under the netziv happened there too. I urge you to speak to older jews around after the holocaust. For some reason that don;t generally feel the same about the medina. Ask yourself why not? They are wiser than you. The answer is because they saw the alternatives . They grew up knowing what its like to not be wanted by anyone. Its easy to judge now.I feel bad for Neturei Karta. 75 years of saying “The Zionist dream is dead!” and “Israel will fall any minute!”. The state outlasted the unified Neturei karta and Satmar movements. Clearly Hashem didn’t pasken like the Satmar Rebbe zt”l . You’re better off being like Rav shternbuch shlita and other gedolim- protest the evil of the Zionists while still acknowledging that Hashem is protecting His land and is not bringing a catastrophe to kill the hundreds of thousands of chareidim el dvaro who live there.
dbrim: Don;t confuse Eretz Yisroel with the State of Israel. They’re two very different things. Eretz Yisroel includes parts of Lebanon, Israel and Jordan.
In turn all three — Lebanon, Israel and Jordan are partially in Chutz L’aaretz and partially in Eretz Yisroel.
And all three — Lebanon, Israel and Jordan — are secular, non-Jewish, anti-Torah entities.
Evalimoshavlo: Since 1948, the State of Israel has, consistently, been the most dangerous place for Jews to live. Jews in Russia have been safer, since 1948, than Jews in Israel.
Do you realize how many tens or hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens have actively and specifically procured for themselves and for their families foreign passports from countries in Europe, South America and North America, in case they ever need to escape from the so-called “safe haven” allegedly provided by the Zionist State?
Never forget that Israel in in Golus.
cousin sue: Interesting points.
@ujm,
You forgot that in 1948, America did not let jews leave eastern Europe. We had tough quotas. in 1956, they let in some Hungarians. Many in the early years after the war including my family were not allowed into the USA. Hah they not had Israel, many would have died in Russia under stalin and Kruscheif Yimach shimo. I don’t know where you get your facts in saying that Jews under Stalin were better off than in Israel. Its just so false on every level. It talks to the insanity of modern day society where hyper beliefs whether its the far right or far left (trump crazies vs antifa) or its free Palestine (and nakba) aka antii “evil zionists” or yes the other extreme that we have to conquer every inch and never compromise, Study your facts.
PS if you mean that jews are now safer in Russia / Putin vs Israel that may be true. But historically its untrue
You are correct in saying that Israel is still golus. and that there is no kohci vatzim yadi altough there are open nissim with israel as many gedolim stated after the 6 day war.LerntminTayrah:
“…admit that perhaps Hashem doesn’t hate the Toshvei Eretz Yisroel as much as they do.”
It’s pathetic that you insist on making a straw-man by conflating those living in E”Y with the Zionist invaders of a portion of E”Y.
The Torah never changes and never will, including for Zionism.Chaim87:
Zionist propaganda remains Zionist propaganda. That applies to their “wars”, which were all by choice including their war of “independence” which was against the will of the gentiles who wanted to start a new UN mandate instead, which the Zionists nixed – by force. It also applies to the apologetics about the oaths and all the rest. They’re brought liHalacha by the Rambam himself and by numerous other poskim and gedolim throughout the generations. Changing the Torah because of Zionist propaganda about Holocaust survivors will also not work, especially since it was the Zionists who both caused and contributed to that Holocaust, like lobbying governments against allowing Jews into their countries. So, no, it was not a random “nobody wanted them”; in galus, other than the Zionists interfering in the Holocaust, there was always a place to which Jews could move when one country became non-hospitable.Dear HaKatan and Neturei Karta,
Before Eretz Yisrael was taken-over by “The Zionists”,
there were approximately three [3] yeshivahs in Eretz Yisrael.After 76 years of Zionist rule in Eretz Yisrael,
there are many hundreds of yeshivahs in Eretz Yisrael,
maybe more than 1,000 yeshivahs in Eretz Yisrael.Additionally, many new yeshivahs are built in Eretz Yisrael every year.
If the number of yeshivahs in Eretz Yisrael is not more than 1,000 now,
then it probably will be more than 1,000 some time soon.In secular year 1967, the stunning victory of “The Zionists”
against the Arabs caused an international Baal Teshuvah movement,
which continued for decades after 1967 CE.The grandchildren of the year 1967 CE Baal Teshuvah movement
are both studying in many yeshivahs right now,
and teaching in many yeshivahs right now.ALL food in the Israeli Army is KOSHER.
Your claim that Israel’s wars were “all by choice” is an obvious
falsehood, and a re-write of history, and Motzi Shem Ra.Chazal clearly taught that the Jewish People will not be redeemed
until they become united. By constantly attacking “The Zionists”,
you guarantee that the Jewish People will NEVER be united,
which means that the Jewish People will NEVER be redeemed.Last but not least, it is extremely obvious that
YOU DON’T KNOW WHEN TO STOP.Sincerely,
SQUARE_ROOTwhat are you making up? alternative facts? The war of independence was fought because Israel was attacked. It was self defense. This is pure lies feed to you.
“apologetics about the oaths and all the rest.” no no. Its not” apologetics “. Its the true halacha. Rabbi Hirsch’s view was extreme and not accepted. You take it as a given that we must abide by 3 oaths and then anyone who disagrees is just trying to be “apologetics “. It was never our mesora or halcha to pasekn like aggadata and that gemara is unclear. This is toras emes. Not torah bent to use for your anti zionist rhetoric..The zionists rallied the USA in the 1920’s to have visa quotas? what kind of lies do you spew. The zionists had nothing to do with USA policy about immigration. In fact the rasha Stephen Weiss who was FDR advisor was anti zionists. (As R yeruchim z’l gave a shmuxz in the Mir, it was pure sodom.)
Its very in style to be a hot head today and being anti zionist is very “in”. But you lack facts and make things up. Just like you can’t tell me the heter for NK to attend protests with women in colleges? Pritzus gevald. What happened to tznius?
SQUARE_ROOT:
The obvious reason for the creation of yeshivos in the Zionist State – despite the Zionist invasion of the area and the Zionists’ harassment of Jews there – is that millions of Jews have moved there since then. Makes sense: millions of Jews living somewhere means that there will be lots of yeshivos there.The obvious reason for the celebrated baal teshuva movement after the Zionists’ ordinary and non-miraculous military victory in 1967 is that the Zionists had shmaded all those Jews for decades prior. It would have been far better had the Zionists not shmaded them and for the baal teshuva movement to thus not have been needed.
The fact is that Israel’s wars were all by choice, especially the early ones as the Satmar Rav and others have written in their sefarim explicitly. The Zionists could also have gone to the UN and asked for a new mandate (against which the Zionists would not terrorize and battle, unlike the one they forced to end so that they could make their “State” in 1948).
Your playing the achdus card is perhaps the weakest argument of all. Achdus is under the banner of Torah, not violating it in any way including not joining with reshaim and not violating “lo sihye acharei rabim liRaos”. As well, it is actually the opposite. As the Brisker Rav, Satmar Rav and others noted, the Zionist State is actually holding back the geulah. So, as long as people worship that idol, we will need that much more rachamim from Hashem for Mashiach to come.
Last but not least, it is extremely obvious that YOU SIMPLY HAVE NO VALID ARGUMENT.
Sincerely.
Another famous quote from the Chofetz Chaim zt”l:
Frum is a galach, a Yid is ehrlach.NK has shown us the difference. Their frumkeit leads them to be mosrim and rodfim r”l.
May Hashem keep protecting the yidden of Eretz Yisroel until He is ready to replace the Zionists with Malchus Beis Dovid.
Hakatan – please stop misrepresenting our holy torah !
Small One: You always claim that there was nothing miraculous about Israel’s victory in 1967. The Ponovezher Rav wrote that there were “obvious miracles” that even blind people could see.
No doubt you don’t celebrate Purim, because the miracles that occurred then were nistarim.The Satmar Reba z’l was very holy and his shita is definitely highly respected. However, he was a das yachid and extreme. One almost wonders if he said many things simply so that the masses don’t get caught up with the fervor of the moment. In those days, unlike today it was very in style even among charedim to become or support zionism, He had to hammer in the point how bad it is and how we must disconnect. In reality its alot more muted. In reality in many ways its a bracha for all jews.
Most other gedolim did not hold like the Satmar reba.
Re 1948, I never heard that the zionists had a choice not to fight. That’s revisionist history. Once they UN passed a resolution we were attacked. Perhaps you want to argue that who asked the tzionim to push that resolution? That’s easy for you to say now in 2024. In 1947 noone wanted the jews even after the holocuast including the USA. Europe was becoming communist and closing the iron curtain. What was our choices?
Re 1967: Yes technically Israel attacked first. But everyone in their right mind knew Israel was on the brink. Had they not attacked first 5 countries would have attacked us. Yes the fight started over the Suez canal and the satmar reba said who asked Israel to pick a fight over a water channel. But cmon without that cannel Israel can’t function. And it would have just pushed Egypt to do more The reba says the success of the 6 day war was masa soton. But almost every other gadol said it was nissim.
As the tzadik R wolfson shlita says, in 1948 it was an eis ratzzon for moshaich. Instead hashem gave us some broken shards (shiveri kelim) to hold onto after all the tzaras we went through in the form of a state of Israel.
Its easy to be a hothead in 2024 but before you are a big talker research your facts and imagine you lived then
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