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Thanks so much for your responses. Ill try my best.
1.”You left out the most interesting tidbit many of us want to know. What percentage of kids in your world would you guess (since you didn’t conduct any studies…) become OTD?”
First, I would refer you to:
Link removed
Second, if you look at page 9 of the survey — it talks about kids becoming more or less observant than their parents. It doesnt talk about OTD. (Meaning, less observant can mean “not covering their hair” or not learning. So i dont know.). I would say that the Open Orthodox report that half their kids are LESS observant than they are. Pageg 34 of the survey indicates that OO and left wing modern orthodox have a higher number of OTD.
Third, anecdotally, in my community — its really hard to tell. Of my friends, i dont see it too often but i would not think that 1 out of 10, or 2 out of 10 — is off the mark. Our shul, on Yom Tov has a lot of grandkids running around with peyot though and sons/son in laws with hats. I guess the kids that are OTD are not there. (Also — i think — and this is just my opinion — as the “kids” become 26, 27 and older — and are not married — there observance wanes. Some, if they are in NY — will continue to be in the UWS type community but others also drift away).
2.And what percentage attend college, since you mentioned that’s where you lose them to Yiddishkeit? Additionally, is YU just as risky as any mainstream/ non Jewish college?
Almost ALL attend college. Many attend YU and Touro. YU and Touro are not nearly as “risky” as non Jewish Colleges but then again its a self selecting group. (I went to YU — i know the good and the not so good). Many of the kids CHOOSE to go to YU — so if you are already electing to go to YU, you are in a much different group than is going to Maryland, Rutgers or Binghamton. (My son wanted to go to Binghamton and we said no. So he learned in Israel for 2 years and joined the IDF and stayed in iSrael. (May he didnt like our decision). He is dati leumi/ shomer shabbat and his wife covers her hair. (Just so you can visualize). I went to an IVY league grad school. There were kids there who were very committed to Judaism and learned constantly. But others went to the school in order to drift away and did.
3. how about all those who was still wearing kipot Or the like
going through the motions In an artificial way but that’s about it?There are many. Some who wear shreimels and hats. For some, emunah is easy. For others, practice is easy. I have never had a problem with kashrus or shabbos — or ever considered not doing either. Emunah is challenging.
4. “They get all their cues From Spirit destroying Society.”
Sorry — i didnt undersand this one.
SL613
SL613:
“I think that academic exposure is more important.”
What do you mean by that? It’s important to me exposed to knowledge?“There is a certain bluntness or agressiveness that i see in the charedi world (which is accepted there) that doesnt fit in the outside world. I could be wrong totally — but I see it on occassion”
There’s people everywhere in any society that can be blunt and aggressive. There’s many people with undiagnosed behavioral issues, mental disorders, and people who fall under the Autistic Spectrum who all can have tendencies to act that way.
I’m not sure what your point is. Do you think Bais Yaakovs teach young girls to be blunt?
SL613:
“I think that academic exposure is more important.”
What do you mean by that? It’s important to me exposed to knowledge?ANSWER” My point…I dont think being aware of movies and pop music or sports is important. TV adds nothing. Sports adds little. However, the lack of a secular education (math and writing and even reading) is important — and it is not emphasized in all circles. in Israel, in the charedi world it is not emphasized at all for the most part. I think that even history and literature adds to a person. (There was a recent article — AMI i think about Rav Steinsaltz. They interviewed his son. HIs son said that they were expected as children to read. Two or Three books at a time. They werent expected to excel academically necessary but his father wanted to make sure they read (I think James Joyce, and other “classics”, as it were).
“There is a certain bluntness or agressiveness that i see in the charedi world (which is accepted there) that doesnt fit in the outside world. I could be wrong totally — but I see it on occassion”
There’s people everywhere in any society that can be blunt and aggressive. There’s many people with undiagnosed behavioral issues, mental disorders, and people who fall under the Autistic Spectrum who all can have tendencies to act that way.
I’m not sure what your point is. Do you think Bais Yaakovs teach young girls to be blunt?
ANSWER: I knew i should not have written this. I looked back at what i wrote – and I apologize. There is a different way of speaking — especially amongst men in the Yeshiva World. (It could be a “language thing” but i think its cultural). I cannot describe it. I see it. Its different and its not the way that the wolrd at large communicates. I cant do better than that. I apologize. Maybe if someone knows what im talking about they can help me. If not — ill just take it that im wrong. It does happen time to time. 🙂
I’ve been a consistent critic of the MO, yet I find myself agreeing with almost everything SarahLevine says. I wish she didn’t feel like she had to become apologetic at the end there.
Most of the American Litvish world has either lived in NYC at some point, or been influenced by its culture of aggressiveness. Bochrim can have a heated debate over a gemara in yeshiva and then go back to business as usual afterwards, but people don’t act that way towards each other in the working world; they just don’t. I think they tend to calm down and become normal after they’ve been working for a year or two. I assume Sarah is referring to the actions of people currently in yeshiva.
What she is saying about education also makes sense, but I will say YU took it to an extreme. Too many people talk about these trends to call it a coincidence: the Yeshiva system drifted farther into the anti-secular education direction, and the YU’ish world drifted into the anti-Orthodox/anti-halachah direction. People shouldn’t have to chose between sending their kid to a school that will endanger their frumkeit and sending them to schools that will give them terrible educations.
By the way, people don’t tend to say it publicly on the CR, but I will: the standard shittah in the non-MO world is that you’re better off sending your kid to a kosher, goyish University than to YU. YU has a track record of peer-pressuring people into being less frum.
SL: thanks for all your honest answers. I wish more people were as balanced as you.
I can only speak for the Chasidic world. Yes, SOME men need a more polite way of communicating. The sub-conscious thinking is something like “if the guy asks me for something, I’ll gladly comply, so I can simply ask for what I want, without prefacing or much thanks afterwards.” Except that this is his natural way of speaking, so he’s not thinking about it all. (I remember hearing Lipa Shmelczer mention how a professor had to teach him to start his emails with “Dear Professor”, he would just get straight to the point.) This is also part of the text message culture, coupled with a lack of Basic Writing being taught. Again, this applies mainly to Chasidic men, AND ONLY SOME. There’s a learning curve involved, and they come to the game late.
More and more bochurim are getting a proper education, as the rise of the yeshivot techinoyot, a Yeshivah hIGH School that does bagruyot.
Mammele wrote: (I remember hearing Lipa Shmelczer mention how a professor had to teach him to start his emails with “Dear Professor”, he would just get straight to the point.)
Ans: Thank you for that. Very funny.
Neville: “YU has a track record of peer-pressuring people into being less frum.”
Ans: Thanks for agreeing with me on most. I do not agree with you on this at all. My view is that this not true at all. (We are a “YU Family”). I think you can make an argument that people who are strong religiously, come out the same; those who are weaker committment wise — come out the same. The “Yeshiva” part of YU is pretty frum. There is maybe one, marginally “left wing” Magid Shiur there. The rest, R. Schechter, Willig, Simon, Sobolofsky, etc while philosophically religious zionists (and perhaps adherents to some iteration of Torah u Mada) are in all other respects “right wing.” Now, there are students there — for all sorts of reasons — who are not all the frum. I dont get the impression — for the most part that its even ideological. I am not sure where the allegation of “peer pressure” comes from. I assume that you can associate with a group that is not that religious. I dont think it comes from the institution.
Shopping: “More and more bochurim are getting a proper education, as the rise of the yeshivot techinoyot, a Yeshivah hIGH School that does bagruyot.”
Answer: I am not sure its a statistically significant number. I have no idea. R. Bombach and others a fighting the fight — but i cannot imagine that it is anything that will make a short term difference. DIGRESSION WARNING: As an aside — i dont understand the Israeli Charedi vision. Why is it acceptable to have a society where you cannot have — from your own community — doctors, lawyers, accountant, and engineers? Isnt poverty inevitable in those circumstances? Where will these professionals come from? If the Charedim become 50% of the population — how can they avoid the army en masse? What is the plan/thought on how this will work? Someone in the community must have really thought about this. Right?
SarahLevin,
REITS leans Center/ Right-of-center
That is why much of left of center MO disparage it As little than ‘an orthodox Day School’sarahLevin,
There an estimated 14 million Jews in the world with plenty of financial resources bl”‘h
how many Charedim are there ? a few hundred thousand bl”‘h?
there’s so much That ought to be accomplished
to paraphrase AJ heschel: many are messengers who are being sidetracked from their messagethe maskilim made a play in which a Proto Jewish Army was waiting to fight
kohen Announced out the verses To all those Fall within the rubric of the categories [ including fear of sin] to go home
eventually There’s only two or four [depends on your version] leftguess The sequel
@SL613.
What does academic exposure have to do with army service? Besides for yeshivot tichniyot there are many programs available for people to go to college. I know quite a few boys who have no secular education now learning to be lawyers, and psychologists.
Why can’t you go to yeshiva and learn a trade afterwards?
Ok… a lot of fish to fry. Here we go:
1. “REITS leans Center/ Right-of-center
That is why much of left of center MO disparage it As little than ‘an orthodox Day School’”RIETS and YU are more or less the same. The shiurim do not change. Meaning you can be in the shiur with R. Willig or R. Schechter or R. Twersky and be in the college or in semicha. I do agree that left of center MO seem to believe its too frum. Even in the non Yeshiva Program — the rabbanim are right. The kids may be less committed. I would not say they are “left” though.
2. “There an estimated 14 million Jews in the world with plenty of financial resources bl”‘h
how many Charedim are there ? a few hundred thousand bl”‘h? there’s so much That ought to be accomplished.”Ans: The Chareidim are on the way to being a majority in Israel. When that happens — what happens to the army? What happens to the economy? No supernatural answers. The answer is that they have to get educated and help. This is no longer the 400 bochurim that Ben Gurion exempted. I have not yet to hear a serious answer — from anyone.
3. “the maskilim made a play in which a Proto Jewish Army was waiting to fight
kohen Announced out the verses To all those Fall within the rubric of the categories [ including fear of sin] to go home eventually There’s only two or four [depends on your version] left.”Ans. I am not bright enough or well read enough to understand your comment. So — Ill answer something totally off point. The Charedim (i apologize for painting in a broad stroke) — are backward looking. (Not backwards). They tend to look at the past as the paradigm for the future (e.g. yeridat ha’dorot and the like). Thus, they still argue haskalah and Zionism. Yes, classical Zionism was anti-religious or a-religious. That’s gone. I am sure you have been to Israel and noted that even in secular cities — there are many people with kippot. Kosher restaurants. Soccer is played mostly (but not entirely) on Sat night or Sunday night. (Beitar does not play home or away on Shabbat). They look at the army as it was 75 years ago — where there was a movement to have separate religious and non-religious armies (fought against by R. Goren and Ben Gurion, I believe). The Charedim have an obligation to serve in the military (in some fashion) — which they owe the other people and the country. I am okay for now — if they acknowledge that and then figure out a way to serve. (My son, btw, served in Netzach).
4.What does academic exposure have to do with army service? Besides for yeshivot tichniyot there are many programs available for people to go to college. I know quite a few boys who have no secular education now learning to be lawyers, and psychologists.
“I know quite a few boys who have no secular education now learning to be lawyers, and psychologists.”
Statistically insignificant. There was one in grad school with me. He was brilliant and the exception. In Israel, it is very hard. How many Israeli born Charedi doctors are there, lawyers, engineers? Again, stastically insignificant. That being said, “amry service” and “academic exposure” are different. I agree.
“i dont understand the Israeli Charedi vision.”
They have wealthy family and/or sponsors in the US who do the dirty work (i.e. the kind of jobs you mentioned). I don’t want to say that the dynamic of having some people be full time learners and some people be balhabatim who sponsor leaning is inherently wrong (although I know the MO disagrees with it, I can see both sides). It’s only natural that the balhabatish side of the community would reside in the country with the better economy, the US, and the learning side of the community would reside in the country that’s a welfare state.
For the YU thing, I didn’t expect you to agree. I had no intention on changing your opinions or belittling them. The only reason I brought it in is because I thought people were making a kal v’chomer that “if a frum person wouldn’t be willing to send his son to YU, then he definitely wouldn’t be willing to send him to a secular university.” This is not the reality.
Isn’t it a tragedy to reduced to be subservient to a state ?!
Should we have more to offer For the world?!
It’s not overly parochial?(Many secular used to claim this as well )
that’s all we are?!Those who For Whom The State- D’etat More so the people
become their raison d’etre in sincerity fine there’s what to work with
Wouldn’t it however a tragedy of global dimensions if we exchange the Ends for the means ?raison d’tat
It is Time for Truth wrote.
“Isn’t it a tragedy to reduced to be subservient to a state ?! Should we have more to offer For the world?!It’s not overly parochial?(Many secular used to claim this as well ) that’s all we are?!
and then
“Those who For Whom The State- D’etat More so the people
become their raison d’etre in sincerity fine there’s what to work with
Wouldn’t it however a tragedy of global dimensions if we exchange the Ends for the means ? raison d’tat”MrSL answers:
Again, truly truly, you operate at a different realm. I have no training in philosophy — although I did take one course in YU with the late great Rabbi Dr. Walter Wurzburger, ztz’l in Ethics (which as i found out did not have anything to do with Ethics, as I understood it). When he showed me my grade in the course — which i believe was B (perhaps a B+) — he told me — “Here is your grade. Dont tell anyone.”
That being said, I think what you are doing is what i complained about earlier. You are imputing to me and others the Zionism of others. Without any evidence whatsoever, I would suggest that even secular Israelis view their Zionism (or “nationalism”, if you prefer) in some religious framework. Yossi Klein HaLevi in a talk that I went to on Yom Yerushalyim two years ago argued that after 1967 it was clear that the country was now a “religious” country — and would continue to be so. He obviously didnt mean that everyone was going to be Shomer shabbat etc, but a majority now viewed the country as one that was entwined with the religion. The communists are gone. The kibbutzim (at least as they once were) — were gone. Even though i can make a pretty good argument for continuing secular zionism and that it is indeed the only hope for non orthodox jewish survival — I dont believe that your criticism is valid.
Just a clarification. Ms. SL and Mr. SL share a sign in. Mr. SL has been writing these posts. I dont know exactly why thats important — but maybe gender figures into some of the opinions — and i didnt want to mislead. Mr. SL may get his own sign in — he may call it MrSarahLevine. Well see.
Neville wrote:
“They have wealthy family and/or sponsors in the US who do the dirty work (i.e. the kind of jobs you mentioned). I don’t want to say that the dynamic of having some people be full time learners and some people be balhabatim who sponsor leaning is inherently wrong (although I know the MO disagrees with it, I can see both sides). It’s only natural that the balhabatish side of the community would reside in the country with the better economy, the US, and the learning side of the community would reside in the country that’s a welfare state.”
Answer. I was afraid that you would say that. As i tell my kids, “that is not a plan, it is a hope.” My question remains. How do they expect the society to survive without a real middle class, with increasing poverty and without a military defense. One of R. Bombach’s arguments in starting his school is that 60% (I think, he said) of people in Beitar live in poverty — for no reason.
With regard to the college discussion — i think we are talking past each other. If the question is Binghamton/Maryland versus YU — i think there is no question that YU provides a Jewish community much stronger than any other place. (That is not to say some kids in the MO community do not do well at out of town secular schools — but they are generally not places of religious growth. There are a good amount of kids who become closer to Judaism on campus but that is a different story). If you are saying Brooklyn/Queens (and learning) vs. YU — or Touro at night — i think that is a matter of personal preference. It allows kids to live at home — and real continue their Hs life. (For my perspective on this — see my original post about the difference between MO and Yeshiva who either wander off the derech or leave orthodoxy).
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