Is the shidduch crises real ?

Au contraire. Orthodox Jewish girls putting off marriage and instead going to college is the shidduch crisis.

I doubt that girls are putting off dating/marriage so that they can go to college and/or get a job, it can and has been done simultaneously for several decades already. In fact, many Orthodox girls go to college or find a good job because they are realistic- they want to marry and support a kollel husband, and they are doing their hishtadlus towards that end. The 20/21 year old studying OT in Touro is not the cause of the shidduch crisis. Imagine how much worse it would be for older singles, and in fact any single over seminary age, if they just sat home with their lives on hold as they waited until they got married, maybe having a shidduch come up once every month or two.
Besides, if you hold from the age gap theory, if they are pushing off marriage until they get their degrees and good jobs (which I really don’t think they are) then they are narrowing the age gap and solving the shidduch crisis!

I agree with most of what WTP wrote.

I would also add that I think that nowadays (shidduch crisis or not), it makes sense for many girls (who are looking for learning boys) to wait a bit before starting shidduchim.

Since the “ol parnassah” will fall on the girls, many of them need some time to either go to college or get training in some kind of career. Even if a girl is not going to go to college (whether for hashkafic or other reasons), she may need time to figure out what she is going to do, and to get some training and/or start working in her field.

“Waiting a bit” can mean a year or two after seminary. That means they will be approximately 20 when they get married. That is not so old, and that year can be crucial. Some girls finish their BA and/or MA in that year, and others have a chance to figure out what they want to do and to start working.

In Eretz Yisrael, the girls go to school for two years after high school. During those two years, they have a “major”, receive some type of certification, and obtain a means of parnassah. Most of the girls do not start shidduchim before Pesach of the second year. (I know that we have argued about that in the past, WTP, but I have a friend with 10 daughters who were, are, or will be in the Yashan, and that is what they told me, and the Yashan is the largest and most classic BY in EY).

LU: I agree with you that it is not a crisis for girls who are 22 or younger and not yet married. I am also not in agreement with the new initiative that boys should start dating earlier (21 and not 23). Many bochurim are now going to EY after 2 – 3 years after graduating form Mesivta whichm eans that they will be in EY when they are 21 and 22. I also do not agree that when someone is in EY for two or three years and then come back and go to BMG that they have to be in the “freezer”.

1) Going to college reduces a girl’s ruchniyos outlook on life.

2) Even without going to college, the longer a girl waits to get married after Beis Yaakov her level of ruchniyos deteriorates.

Several posters’ (in this thread and others) voiced variations of Joe’s theme that “going to college somehow reduces a girl’s ruchniyos outlook on life…”. Not sure how to respond to such a misogynistic allegation other than to note that bochurim are equally (if not more) susceptible to “worldly” influences once they step outside the narrow yeshiva/kollel world they have evolved from….in fact, girls attending college to be able to assure a parnassah for themselves and a prospective choson probably have greater maturity and more discipline to focus on what they are there for (i.e. obtaining job skills) and less on the more secular, mundane or social aspects of college life that Joe worries will adversely affect her ruchnioyos

Gadolhadorah, women are more susceptible to the toxic ideology of feminism that will tell them to pursue a career instead of children.

Joseph wrote: :1) Going to college reduces a girl’s ruchniyos outlook on life.

2) Even without going to college, the longer a girl waits to get married after Beis Yaakov her level of ruchniyos deteriorates.:

Both of these points are quite comical, and neither have a basis in reality.

Firstly, we are reading this with the need to assume that Joseph knows exactly what “ruchniyos outlook on life” means. This phrase, at the very least, is vague, even to the writer. It is virtual gibberish to the reader.

Secondly, there is a serious nature vs. nurture issue here. And it is magnified ever so much more by the role of home learning versus college learning. I suggest that the truly frum, “ruchniyos” driven girl will be hardly impacted by college life. Now, in what way does college education diminish one’s outlook on life? By establishing parnosoh so that one does not need to be dependent on parents or handouts?

Thirdly, the amount of time between graduating Bais Yaakov until getting married is purported to cause a decrease in “ruchniyos outlook on life”. How does that work? Beginning with the hypothesis that we all know what that puzzling phrase means, how does time work against it?

Joseph – you have an agenda. Sometimes it is easy to recognize from your posts. I’m not sure here what you are pushing. Should we force a girl to marry because of her birthdate or the date she graduated Bais Yaakov? What if that shidduch is not appropriate for any of many reasons? Are you going to police her thoughts that she should sentence herself to a life of unpredictable challenge because it is now a full year since she graduated? That would create a reverse shidduch crisis, where shidduchim happen, but are doomed because they were made out of technicality instead of any of the issues that matter. That would create an even greater chaos of divorces, agunos, and the rest of that can or worms.

What is the agenda?

GH – While everything you wrote may very well be true, it in no way disproves the assertion that college has a negative affect on a girl’s Ruchniyus.

Before you posted, Joe had not written that college was worse for girls than for boys. He simply stated that college is bad for girls, which is true (although it doesn’t necessarily follow that no girls should attend college).

In any case, why are we making a comparison? Whether it’s worse for girls or for boys, the fact is that it’s bad for both and is something that should be avoided if possible.

Of course, there are many factors to consider, and if someone does feel that she must marry a guy who is learning, while she should still try to avoid college if possible, that is not a realistic option for everyone.

Not everyone can be a teacher or Ganenet, so some girls may need to go to college if they want to support their husbands in Kollel. And there are Rabbanim who give heteirim for girls to go to college in certain cases, although I think that all Rabbanim would agree that it is a b’dieved and if one can avoid it, she/he should.

When making a decision about going to college or not, I think it is also important to think about which job path will involve more/less Ruchniyus.

While it’s better to avoid college, sometimes the jobs that don’t involve college can be worse Ruchniyus-wise than those that do require college.

For example, being a special education teacher or a speech therapist require college and being a secretary or a computer programmer do not, but once they start working, the special ed teacher and the speech therapist are more likely to be in a more Ruchniyus environment.

“he was allowed to continue dating her”

sure, but, he could not start with someone else.

Joseph wrote: “GH: Men are created by design from our Creator to go outside in the world whereas women are created by our Creator to mostly be at home and not outside in the wide world.”

RebYidd23 wrote: “Gadolhadorah, women are more susceptible to the toxic ideology of feminism that will tell them to pursue a career instead of children.”

There is something to these responses. כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה is not a flowery, social nicety, but a true guide for a spiritual life based on the fulfillment of one’s תפקיד for being sent to reside in this world. But getting carried away with this to the extreme is equally problematic. There have always been women who fulfilled a position for the Klal that was not just crucial, but praised by the Torah. We can see open reference to מרים הנביאה, רבקה אמנו, רחל אמנו, דבורה הנביאה, and אסתר המלכה. Each of these had specific reasons to do things outside the home when it was the proper time. Neither you nor I are the ones to say whether any particular girl belongs in the home or doing something that includes walking out of her home.

There is a reality here. Women will leave the four walls of their home to shop, and many to work. The current zeitgeist is that women provide the income so that their husbands can stay glued to their seat in kollel. While I am not a proponent of this indiscriminate filling of kollelim, the reality is that the dependency (for better or worse) on women’s working is here to stay. If you advocate that women should not have careers, prepare to battle the kollel system. I wish I could reduce kollel lifestyle by a huge percent, but am aware that this animal is greater than my ability to control it.

Lastly, the pursuit of career is not in lieu of children. Such an accusation is baseless. I know many families in which the wife/mother works and raises children, even large families. You sound as if you know the fertility issues of career women, and I demand you prove this if you want to continue the discussion with that premise.

What is toxic about feminism is that it ignores the G-d created differences between men and women. That some women work is not feminism. It is about necessity.

“There is a culture of putting careers in the place of children. ”

Sure there is. Just not among the females under discussion here. The females under discussion here would like very much for their husbands to stay in the beis medrash and out of necessity to feed and clothe their husband and children leave the safety of their home and enter the workforce.

“Joseph wrote: :1) Going to college reduces a girl’s ruchniyos outlook on life.

2) Even without going to college, the longer a girl waits to get married after Beis Yaakov her level of ruchniyos deteriorates.:

Both of these points are quite comical, and neither have a basis in reality.”

I have to strongly disagree. The first statement is certainly true. I don’t think that there any Gedolim who would say that college is not problematic Ruchniyus-wise.

The idea that one is affected by his environment is something that has many sources and it’s a very basic concept in Judaism.

There is a famous Rashi somewhere in the Chumash that gives a mashal of someone who goes into a place with a bad smell. When he leaves, he will smell badly no matter what. No matter what background a person is from and no matter how strong he/she is, the environment has an automatic effect.

In fact, the greater someone is, the more sensitive he/she is to his environment. The Gedolim are much more careful than others are about what they allow themselves to be exposed to because they understand the effect it has upon him.

I’m not saying that no girl should go to college, but whichever choice she makes, it is crucial that she recognize that there are dangers to going to college and that it is something that it is better to avoid. But as with most things in life, each choice has chesronos and maalos, and one has to weigh all the factors before making a decision.

We don’t live in a perfect world, and we have to make choices. But one must be aware of the chesronos involved with his choice, especially if the chisaron involves being subject to non-Torah influences. The more she is aware of it, the better chance she has of not being influenced, if she does choose that path.

Additionally, she may come to realize that she does not need that particular path.

It is comical that in the 21st century, t is predominantly men who are postulating on what is good for women’s spiritual, physical and economic well being. Clearly, looking around at the state of affairs in many areas of the tzibur, they have been doing a great job. Perhaps wake up and realize that a young woman is no more susceptible to the yetzer horah than a man ( and biologically probably less so). As one of the other posters noted, a young woman with strong hashkafah and upbriinging can find many opportunities for pursuing her edcuation and career without compromising her yiddeshkeit, If she chooses to delay starting a family for several years, thats probably a net positive for the future success of that family since she will be able to contribute to their economic and educational well being.

WTP – while it’s true that attending an online program is very different than a liberal college campus, it also has problems.

First of all, being online is a big problem.

Again, I am not saying that she shouldn’t do it, but she must be aware that she is exposing herself to negative influences.
And yes, when you go outside, you are also exposed to bad influences. It is necessary, so one does it. But you have to be aware of the dangers and avoid them as much as possible.

When you have to go somewhere, you should try to think about the best route to go in order to avoid negative exposure. If you have to travel somewhere that involves going through a neighborhood or taking a bus which will involve negative exposure, you do it, but if you can avoid it, you avoid it.

Addtional comment to Joseph with respect to his analogizing kiddushin to a “game of musical chairs” where a young woman who pursues advanced education risks being the one “left without a chair” when the music stops…..I cannot think of a more uneducated and false analogy unless that has sadly been your experience, and for that I am sorry. A baas yisroe with strong grounding in daas torah and good midosl who pursues her dreams of having a balanced life including a career and family (and can also make a substantial contribution to the family’s income) will clearly be more attractive shidduch prospect in her 20s than someone with a high school education and little if any earnings potential. I guess it all depends on what you are looking for. For the bochur chained to a shtender and shteiging in kollel 24×7, maybe not but thats probably not what SHE would even consider.

GH – that is a really negative and inappropriate way to refer to people who are learning Torah all day!

I do agree that the musical chairs analogy is not a good one. Mainly, I think it is very offensive to refer to shidduchim as a “game of musical chairs”.

In addition, one’s decision about going to college should not be based on a fear that there will be no boys left for you because you will be considered second-class. Your decision should be based on what you feel Ratzon Hashem is. It is legitimate to consider whether or not the type of boy you would want to marry would want to go out with you, but that is very different from a fear of “being left without a chair.”

Joe: No, in my family a girl marries for the whole person, including his/her ruchnios, midos, overall intelligence etc. I don’t think anyone in my family is or will ever be deemed “wealthy” Going to college is not a matter of accumulating wealth or material items. Its about learning and experiencing much of what the Ebeshter has created and simultaneously developing the skills and intellect he provided beyond what might arguably be obtained in a beis Yaakov setting. From your postings, it seems your family’s frame of reference is a more narrow criteria of simply whether the kallah is of child bearing age a ready to start to start a family with little, if any concerns about what follows.

GH – here’s the thing. You keep addressing Joseph’s points as if they are not only legitimate Torah view points, but with a disdainful tone indicating that you had expected no less, that you see this as the mainstream yeshivish/chareidi/Torah (pick your label) view. It’s been pretty obvious here that few people give credence to his presentations and some have even spoken out about the damage his attitude and expression can do/does to readers. So although you seem to feel that he is representative of your view of chareidim, and you are happy to engage him in arguments about all the things he says that are wrong that you expected from us “black hatters” anyway, you are only giving these views more credibility than they deserve.

Gadolhadorah, his constant presence is what makes him the resident troll. Otherwise he’d be a guest troll.

parents use teh kids as pawns trying to elevate their social status. Kids become older singles

Was it this guy?

Fromer Friends from Yeshiva avoid me (troll thread)