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huju,
“To Avram in MD: You have utterly and completely missed my point”
A few follow-up questions:
Kosher food is expensive, as is making Pesach and Sukkos. And to live a frum lifestyle, being near a shul is a requirement, and most established communities are in areas with high housing costs. Why were these not on your list of requirements? Yes you said “among many other things”, but you selected 6 specific things to discuss. Why those six? And if you’re saying that frum people have to let go of some of those requirements in order to stay “frum” or at least above water, how is my asking which ones and what giving them up looks like missing the point?
When pressed into frustration over a lack of a robust Jewish education, the product of modern orthodoxy resorts to insulting his opponent’s use of English.
My shoes do smell, I happen to have sweaty feet.
Not everyone is meant to learn full time in kollel. What if he just isn’t growing in learning and knowledge? What if the cheshek and motivation just isn’t strong? That doesn’t mean he’s gonna make it big in business either! There are many seemingly ‘mediocre’ (by our standards at least) type guys who aren’t cut out to become neither a talmid chacham or a fancy gvir. I think perhaps this is what huju is pointing at. For some (or many), it feels like they are left behind and forgotten. They are stuck between the two ends of the platinum standard, so instead they get nothing of nothing. We need a proper and dignified system in place for these yidden to live as honorable and cherished Yidden. Maybe their children will be the next iluyim, gvirim, rashkebahag, etc. Or maybe they will be just like them! We don’t want to leave them behind.
@Huju,
I was going to respond with my GPA in college, on second thought I am not going to even dignify with a reponse.The Bllack Hat / Chasidish lifestyle started with a handfull of people who survived churbon europe and is the growing by leaps and bounds and expanding in Rockland, Orange counties in NY, Ocean County NJ, Brooklyn, Florida and overseas in London Anwerp and Israel.
New communities are starting in Staten Island, Linden, Union, Bloomingberg etc, while the MO communties are either stagnant or shrinking.My advice to you, you stated that your belief is minimal, we managed and thrived for over 80 years we will manage just fine in spite of your pessimistic musings, its Elul now you really need to do some serious introspection and worry about your own house instead.
@ Huju,”I have every confidence that the Torah will survive as long as Hashem wants it too.”
Great, now you can close out this thead.PS, you never responded to second part of my comments
Huju, you’re deflecting the discussion which you started that had to do with inherently spiritual things, i.e. bais yaakov, yeshiva, kolel, etc, and are now pretending that your gripe is with how much it costs to buy a black hat. Modern orthodox jews have their fair share of exorbitant costs; college tuition, fancy technology, etc…buying an iphone 12 is a LOT more than a borsalino, and way more than a kosher phone. Happens to be that my hats were never more than 150, even for my wedding. Many yeshiva guys buy cheaper hats. My suits are also 75-120, except for my wedding suit. I’m very frugal, and so are most of my yeshivishe learning-man friends. Also, FYI, tan suits are just as expensive as black.
To pretend that the divide between MO and the yeshiva world can be reduced to exteriors is disingenuous. If MO wore colored shirts and light suits but kept the laws of tznius, covering hair, separation of genders, had filters on their internet and kept halacha normally, it wouldn’t bother me at all of they dressed lighter. Chofetz chaim boys dress that way, and they have a robust Torah chinuch, with nothing in common with an average student in a MO school. A chofetz chaim boy in high school can discuss reb shimon and reb chaim with a yerushalmi boy with little issue aside from a language barrier. Yeshiva styles change and don’t matter much; to think that the hat and jacket make the ben torah is very, very superficial.
Shimon Nodel,
“Not everyone is meant to learn full time in kollel. What if he just isn’t growing in learning and knowledge? What if the cheshek and motivation just isn’t strong?”
Substitute his relationship with his wife for his relationship with his learning in this scenario. What would your advice to him be then?
huju,
“The requirements I listed are more directly connected to Torah, Talmud and the mitzvos. The “requirements” you cited […] are the real-world consequences of the observance of the mitzvos.”
I don’t understand the distinction you are making here. The costs of raising children are a real-world “consequence” of the observance of pru urvu. The costs of yeshiva education and the time spent on a bench in kollel instead of in a cubicle at the office are a “consequence” of the observance of limud Torah. How is that categorically different than the consequent costs of kosher food or living near a shul?
“Please read my first sentence after my list of “requirements.” I think it answers your question.”
Your assertion is that the costs of a frum lifestyle as you defined are not sustainable, which others have disputed. My dispute is primarily with your conclusion that due to this non-sustainability it is inevitable that some of these “requirements” will have to be given up. I think that presents a false dilemma, and that there are other potential solutions. I also wanted you to clarify what giving up on these “requirements” looked like to you, because you can’t “save” frumkeit by giving up frumkeit.
In mishnas rav aharon, rav aharon kotler has a shmuez where he says that in essence, modern orthodoxy is akin to reform, as they blth originally began as attempting to “save” yiddishkeit by making sacrifices and changes.
Modern orthodox has a higher drop out rate – double, actually – than the yeshiva world. When people see that you’re willing to forego Hashem’s will for the sake of whatever thing it may be, the door is open, the pischa shel gehinnom is underneath it, and it takes a miracle and zchus avos not to end up there
“Keep in mind that one of the mitzvos is to understand the real world, i.e., the physical environment, human behavior, and the effects of human behavior, inter alia”
Which one of the taryag mitzvos is this? I suppose Rav Yisroel Chaim Kaplan, Mashgiach of beis medrash elyon and a lamed vavnik, did not fulfill this mitzvah, as his rebbetzin had to remind him the difference between a nickel and a dime every time he used them! A lot of gedolei yisroel, especially in later generations, were aloof from the world and did not know “velt zachin”. That did not diminish their daas torah and their understanding of how the world runs on a deeper level. The heiliger Steipler was as cloistered in learning as can be, yet he had a profound understanding of psychology, as can be seen in the seder aitzos vehasrachos. He could have easily been a top notch therapist if he had so chosen, without reading one psychology book.
Sometimes we understand from human behavior the Mishna. Hazohov koneh es hakesef. Gresham’s Law says that the bad coins drive out the good coins. People will hord the good coins and spend the bad coins. Silver, the less valued, is used as the currency and gold as the commodity so silver will be spent and gold will be horded and not spent and miderabinon mishecha is koneh.
Why does the shidduch system treat Working Bochurim like OTD Footsteps members?
Why do so many girls turn down bochurim for dates if they are not learning full-time?huju,
I don’t believe I’ve mentioned modern Orthodoxy at all in my replies. I am trying hard to respond directly to what you have written in your OP. What exactly were the types of responses you were anticipating from this thread?
You covered this topic before
Avram, I would strongly suggest he fulfill his obligation to love his wife or else consider finding a different wife he can love. Remaining in a cold marriage is not an option, and it is definitely in violation of halacha to not love your wife.
Anyone who lacks a cheshek to learn Torah and is not motivated to grow in learning should likewise absolutely not continue the path of kollel learning. We’re all for as many people as possible to learn full time, but there may be a significant number of people who are in the wrong occupation if they’re not committed.
Shimon Nodel,
“I would strongly suggest he fulfill his obligation to love his wife or else consider finding a different wife he can love.”
That was not the answer I was expecting, but I guess it’s consistent, so there’s that. Do you think commitment, love, and motivation are things that just happen to someone outside of his control, or are they something he can develop within himself and may indeed be obligated to develop?
Human behavior also explains the Torah. Lama Tisrou, Yaakov Avinu told the shevotim, don’t show off. Don’t make it look that yiu have when you don’t. Truly rich don’t have to show off. Others have an inferioruty complex. The greatness of Hashem is His humility.
“That was not the answer I was expecting, but I guess it’s consistent, so there’s that”
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Kovod, she’ar kesus ve’onah, vesimach ea ishto….those are mitzvos. If you find something”megunah” and have a distaste for her, the gemara says that’s a violation of ve’ahavta lereacha kamocha, but where does it say it’s a mitzvah to love your wife? People are likewise “astounded” to learn that there’s no mitzvah to love one’s parents….a loveless marriage isn’t fun. It isn’t healthy, but where does it say it’s an aveirah?
If being frum is so expensive, why does the Shidduch system treat Working Bochurim like Footsteps members?
Ari- it doesn’t. And you have had lots of people tell you that so maybe you can step back and retjink the issues. Are you dressed in a police uniform taking a job interview for a CPA position? Are you wearing torn jeans asking for a girl who wants a long term learner? Are you slapping your kid while speaking to a menahel about a teaching job? For 8 years I’ve been getting names of working/learning/both guys and always presented respectfully. Something else is at play here, try to find it.
Reacha includes the wife. There is no way to care for each other, worry for each other’s well being, without loving each other. A marriage also creates a spiritual unity not just physical. Nisuyum, elevate each other by placing each other on a pedestal. By being opposite each other, find one’s fault by seeing it in the other and learn to compromise.
Reb E only the CR of the CR can write something like that, sorry but your drafted for the job no one else is capable
Avira, I give you another logic. אשתו כגופו ואדם קרוב אצל עצמו, the wife is like himself and a person loves himself therefore he must love his wife.
Moderators, please post my comment. It is absolutely astounding and also terrifying that someone doesn’t know it’s a chiyuv to love one’s wife sincerely! Look in Mishna Torah!!! It is a chiyuv, a mitzva, halacha, a chova!!! How do people not know this??? A shame and a disgrace! Even if it weren’t a halacha (which it is), how can you not understand the achzariyus involved by having a ‘loveless’ marriage? I’ll say something a little controversial and maybe sexist. It is at the very core a woman’s existence and human function to be loved by their husband.
Reacha would apply equally to all jews – in theory, halacha requires no more love to one’s wife than to a begging vegrant, if he’s Jewish. All the lofty ideals of marriage and what it’s supposed to be like – ishto kegufo, etc, are real and important. Marriage needs a lot of things; trust, for instance. Is there a halacha that one is obligated to trust one’s wife? There isn’t. I never said one should not endeavor to love one’s wife – if you value your olam hazeh and olam haba, this should be high on your priority list, but i do not like creating halachos when there are none.
“It says in mishnah torah” – where? Where does any halacha sefer say that a man is obligated to love his wife?
Indeed, when one fulfills the obligations of kovod, shear kesus veonah, those mitzvos lead to a loving marriage. Ahavah comes from “hav”, to give; the more one gives his wife, the more love there will be. That’s beautiful, but again, we are violating bal tosef jf we invent a mitzvah just because something is important.
Shimon, I believe you have the idea of love inverted. You say that if one does not love his wife, he should get divorced and find someone he loves, or force himself to love her. It seems as though you’re saying that love comes first, and is then evidenced by wanting to care for and give to one’s wife. That is, pardon my bluntness, very goyish. Goyim believe that love is natural and comes by itself for some inexplicable reason.
The Torah is saying the opposite. By placing financial and emotional responsibilities on the husband, the Torah is creating a recipe for love that will promote sholom bayis. Responsibility and unconditional commitment are the keys that unlock a loving marriage. They are not results, they are causes.
‘People are likewise “astounded” to learn that there’s no mitzvah to love one’s parents…”
Nor are parents biblically commanded to love their children. And yet, these types of comments, aside from being absurd and unthinkable, give a bad name name to Torah Judaism.
We find in Breishis 24,67 where first Yitzchak Avinu takes Rivka as his wife and then he comes to love her. Her behavior brought him to love her. The act of care and wanting to make each other happy brings to love.
The gemora Yoma (86,1) has a problem with loving Hashem as the question of the Baal Haikarim, how can there be commandment to love each other which is a feeling, so the gemora says שתהי שם שמים מתאהב על ידך make Hashem beloved on others through yourself by behaving properly as the examples indicated. .
The Ramban says that it impossihle to love your friends like yourself and that is why it says lereacha rather than reacha. Says the Sefer Habris, that whatever you don’t want your friend to do you, applies to him (lereacha), don’t do to him. Maybe, by the wife their behavior brings to a mutual unconditional love.
If beauty or other outside qualities like beauty or money bring the love then it is an ahava teluya bedovor, it is a dependent on a outside inffuence, and if that disappears love also disappears.
Reb E, with all this focus on love you are starting to sound like Dr, Ruth
Avirah, so according to you the Rambam is goyish chalilah. It definitely is a halacha to love one’s wife. You’re the one making things up. I never said love is spontaneous. It can be generated through effort and sincerity. What’s goyish is your idea that it’s not a priority to love one’s wife. I’ll tell you exactly where in Mishna Torah it says. Stay tuned
Rambam HIlchos Ishus 15, 19. Ohavah K’gufo umechabdah yoser migufo
Hilchos ishus, perek tes vav: halacha yud tes
But you could go ahead and omit that one if you feel that halacha is too goyish
Also, shimon, i never said it’s not important. If you call, I said that if you value your olam hazeh and olam haba, this should be high on your priority list.
Rational; there are a lot of things that make Judaism look unpalatable for western audiences. We’re not reform, who change the Torah to make it go down easier for the consumer, chas veshalom. If they are true, they are not “unthinkable”; the Torah was given to bnei adam, “mentchen”, and not animals. The Torah is also above our understanding, and is a chochma ila’ah, an elevated wisdom emanating from Hashem, who is “les machshava tefisa bay”, no thoughts can reach him. Pointing out how this is true through demonstration that there is no mitzvah to love your parents, children, etc, is important – we should not lower the Torah to an earthly document of laws akin to hamurabbi chas veshalom. I doubt a newcomer to Judaism will be discouraged ny reading a coffee room thread.
Re, the rambam in hilchos ishus – if I haven’t made it clear by now in my posts, I’ll say it outright; im not “omed al diburo”, and I’ll admit that i don’t know everything; i can admit that I was not aware of the word “love” in rambam nor in the gemara he’s based on (see magid mishnah there). That being said, the rambam follows this statement of oheva kegufo etc with discussion of how to spend his money. The ahavah he refers to seems to mean giving her things and making her feel loved. He is not referring to an obligation as to how he feels about her. Let’s say he’s never worked at marriage before; he started out with gaga feelings and infatuation. Then one day, it hits him that he’s not feeling love very much anymore. He starts feeling resentment; maybe regret. The answer here is to give! Give of time, money and resources and he will build ahavah. The gemara that the rambam is based on says “one who loves his wife like his body, and honors her more so, on him the pasuk says “and you will know that your tent is peaceful etc..”.
I still think it’s referring to behavior, not to an obligation to feel a certain way. Could be that I’m wrong; I’m not “married” to my position
To all the poster who are fixated with love please start a new thread this has zero to do with the topic at hand
The Targum Yonasan says on the above story of Yitzchak marrying Rivka that because of her proper deeds he came to love her.
CS, I will connect the topic at hand. The gemora says in Yevomus (62,2) that on the one who loves his wife more than himself (she will recipricate) the pasuk says veyodato ki shalom aholecha, you will know that there is peace at home. When you go out to work to your business, you don’t worry about your wife because their is love between you.
Reb E for CR of the CR!!, its has zero to do with Huju question / statement
It seems quoting halacha 20 of said rambam is not acceptable, so I’ll just say that when discussing the woman’s obligations to her husband, the rambam noteably omits loving him, because of what i said above – her obligations have nothing to do with giving snd providing, so she’s not obliged to “love him as herself”, because that’s the kind of love we’re talking about. I take back my comment about not being married to this pshat – it’s meduyak in the rambam very clearly
The answer to the question is yes. If peoole have a loving home, they are satisfied with less.
Avirah, your interpretation is wrong. It is not meduyak. But apparently all my replies are censored.
All my replies are being censored. I’d cut back some if I even knew what’s so controversial
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