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This is ridiculous. If your child is too young to make the decision on who to marry, then he/she is too young to get married.
Your societal biases are showing. Obviously Chassidim disagree, as well as many other cultures.
Luv2hak: You really fit your name!!
The success stories out weigh your hacking….
I also beshowed. Though we had three beshows and for about 1 1/2 each. I was very excited to get married since our beshows went well and we heard such wonderful things about my prospective chosson. However, when I hear about girls that are crazy over their chossonim, that cant wait to speak on the phone, or that say they got everything they dreamed of plus more, I can honestly say that I didnt feel that way when I got engaged. I was excited to get to know my chosson better.
i must tell u i also beshowed and now that im married for 5 years ill tell u we spoke for 3 times about an hour and half each and when my father asked me what i say i said this is the first girl i meet and i have no idea what to look for in a girl when getting married so u tell me what u think he said yes so we went further.
now after 5 years i do see that if we would date the other way alot of things would be differet and some better as well but this way is deffinatly a lot of good things both are young and grow up togther
and what u said about taxting and talking so far im chasidish and went to a chasidish yeshiva there where boucherim there that where talking to ther kallah and there r lots that text as well if u really want u goto find a way to ask him not threw his parents most of the time the chusen and kallah would agree and the parents dont have to know as my chavrusah was talking to his kalah about evety 2 weeks for over an hour and both parents didnt know.
anyway i wish u good luck in ur marriage when is the chasunah
There is no evidence of formal dating as a tool for shiduchin in our Torah. In fact, Lavan was the arranger of the sham marriages of his daughters to Yaakov and these arranged marriages seemed to work out pretty well even without Yaakov’s consent to Leah; in spite of the trickerei. So in reality, we have been brainwashed in western modern society.
I have a slightly different question, I am going to go out with a chassidish guy next week who is 18 years old, I am 20 years old is that normal?
In the chassidishe velt, yes.
It’s also normal in the modern O world for a girl to be two years older. And in the secular world. So where *isn’t* it normal?
Actually I have a lot of secular family that would view this kind of an age difference at such a young age to be innappropriate.
When you’re 25 and he’s 23 no one will think twice about the age difference.
My cousin is Satmar. She had one Beshow and then texted with the boy and they went to the wedding of a mutual friend and snuck out the back to talk more. They had a 6 month engagement and have been married for 7 months now. She is super happy and is talking all of her friends into getting married younger. Maybe it doesn’t work for everyone, but her mother is an amazing shadchan and really did her research. If you are confident about your parents research than great! if not maybe you can do a little of your own via mutual friends.
This cousin’s older sister also got married this way but her list of what she wanted was a little different. She specified what the boy should look like and even rejected boys that were an inch above or below the specified height range. Her mother also only brought her good boys that were compatible with her personality. She has been happily married for 5 years to the boy with the specific looks that she asked for and with the personality that her mother thought would be best. So it does work, as long as the mother knows her child and does her research.
Maybe the solution is for everyone to become Satmar at 18, get married and once that’s taken care of, ‘convert’ all back to yeshivish.
I totally hear your point Lior. My mom would kill me if I beshowed though so we are gonna meet in a hotel lobby.
If your mom is a murderess who would kill her own daughter over a trifle, I would advise you to move away and cut off all contact with her.
Baruch HASHEM, she isn’t in a literal sense. But I have to balance two completely different cultures here.
Vogue: B’hatzlachah!
Workaholic: It’s been 2 years since you originally posted, are you ok?
workaholic- how has your marriage worked out?
im sure its working out beautifully, but that isnt the most polite thing to ask.
ya sorry… it came out wrong… like how have you been? you were so worried
The one thing no-one mentioned on this thread (sorry, ivory, to bump an old thread AGAIN….and Randomex….and anyone else who complained….I haven’t been here too long so I have so much to catch up on 😉 ) is that in the Torah’s times (meaning Yaakov and Leah etc.), they had a COMPLETELY different mindset!! I mean Avraham never even saw Sarah before they got married! These days, it’s a halacha! And someone said above that Yaakov and Leah’s marriage worked out fine….um, maybe I have the facts wrong, but I believe Yaakov wasn’t too thrilled with the initial arrangement, if I remember correctly….also, there are so many proofs in the Torah that marriage today just isn’t like it was then (Boaz and Rus)! You can’t just say, “Well, it’s what worked for Yidden in previous generations, so it’ll work for us.” But we aren’t on the same spiritual level as previous generations – I thought that would be obvious. Not that I am putting down the chassidish way – if that is your derech, then it’s great for you! But saying that it’s worked for Jews before doesn’t mean that it’s the best way for everyone these days.
so you say that we are more frum then the avot? that we have to be better than them? cuz then you are an apikores
Chas vshalom – just the opposite! That we AREN’T on such a high level, therefore we can’t just assume that how they did things will work for us! Yes of course there is a concept “maaseh avos siman lvanim” but it can’t always be taken so literally – there is also the concept of yeridos hadoros and we have to act differently according to the generation we live in. We are not able, in this day and age, to be as great as the avos. Therefore, we need to act differently in a lot of circumstances.
nothing got to do with apikorsus, but its anyway rather stupid to be bringing any proofs from the ovois, for example yaakov kissed rochel the first time he saw her, which is definitely not the accepted thing to do nowadays besides for being ossur lehalocha, we dont understand we cant understand, so to bring rayos is stupid and cozimjewish wasnt saying we are frummer and on what doleofyou said, even if he was saying that we are better (frummer we may be, depending on how you understand frummer but definetly not better) its not apikorsus
Heavy brisker –
A) I’m a “she” and,
B) How are we frummer? I don’t understand! But thanx for standing up for me:)
cozimjewish- i doubt the dor mamidbor or any other doirois before us spent so long checking for esroigim, as i said frummer but definitely not better.
(frummer we may be, depending on how you understand frummer but definetly not better)
Lol. Lol. Lol. +1.
It is obviously ridiculous to bring proofs from the Ovois to our generation, because in every story of the ovois there is more than what meets our eyes, and the Rishonim and Achroinim have so many thousands of different ways of understanding them.
(http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/whats-the-torah-way-for-finding-a-spouse#post-373134)
It’s also not apikorsus unless it challenges the 13 Principles of Faith, which it obviously doesn’t.
About the Esrogim, however, it isn’t Frummer, it is more Ga’avah. I do not mean to generalize here and obviously there are exceptions to the rule, but most of the nitpicking and being pedantic over Arba Minim is nothing to do with Halacha, and is simply on who can have the “nicest” set rather than the most Kosher. The Kashrus of an Esrog $18 set is often as mehudar as the $200, just one is a deeper yellow. Halacha is Halacha, and any other decisions revolving Daled Minim is superflous. <end of rant> But here is not the place for that discussion!!
yekke2 – I don’t know about that. However, I still don’t think we are “frummer” than the avos!
cozimjewish – I made three points there: 1) Don’t bring proofs from Rishonim, 2) Apikorsus is only what challenges the 13 Ikrei Emunah, 3) Regular rant against 4 Minim OCDs.
Which of those “don’t you know about”? And why not?
yekke2 – I don’t know that when people check esrogim out it’s just for show. There is the concept of hiddur mitzvah, and I don’t know about where you are from, but where I am, people choose nicer esrogim because they want to glorify the mitzvah. Also, it wasn’t my idea to bring proofs from Rishonim – I am saying that in earlier posts, people said things like, “It worked for Yaakov, why shouldn’t it work for us?” Therefore I brought the example of Boaz and Rus, to show how ridiculous it is to compare ourselves to previous doros – especially the avos, for crying out loud!
cozimjewish – Lots of the people you check Esrogim are nothing to do with Hiddur Mitzvah, because it ISN’T hiddur. Shteit in Halocho the different chumras and kullas, and anything else is simply not a hiddur, it is foolish.
yekke 2 the reoson they do it is irevellen, in the end of the day its hiddur mitzva, and yes frummer means the extent of the chumros the majority of the world is makpid on nowadays, and in previous derois vis a vis thhe avois as well is was all a lot simpler. and to start hakking halocha when it comes to esrogim is stupid because hiddur by esrog is halocha, even if the minimum level of hiddur required is much lower then what we look for.
But Halacha decides what hiddur is, not Reb Chunas.
There is no “better”, there is only what works and what doesn’t work. And that is different for everyone. Marriage isn’t one size fits all, and neither is dating.
I just want to respectfully point out, for the people who are saying there’s no need to date because of all the extensive research that the parents do– that’s wonderful, but the truth is that research has its limitations. It is impossible to tell from research, to give a basic example, whether or not the boy and girl will “click” and enjoy each other’s company. I have certainly had my share of awkward dates with guys who were seemingly compatible with me “on paper”. And I’m not certain that one meeting is enough to tell if the conversational chemistry is there, since first dates can often be awkward anyway.
I know from personal experience that information is almost totally useless. How can we marry guys we don’t know at all? Do the parents at least meet with the guy/girl for some time before allowing the shiduch through?
“I just want to respectfully point out, for the people who are saying there’s no need to date because of all the extensive research that the parents do”
I never heard of any chosid who doesn’t have at least one beshow (i.e. a “date”), so this point isn’t relevant.
“And I’m not certain that one meeting is enough to tell if the conversational chemistry is there, since first dates can often be awkward anyway.”
I would venture the long-term success rate is better than those who date for a year or more.
Of course the parents meet for some time before letting the shidduch through! And some times for more than just one time! Even after doing extensive research and information.
Hi everyone, I am workaholic (i didnt come in here in a long time and forgot the pass. not using that email anymore and no patience to contact mods). as you can tell by the username i chose now, i am bh very very happy and grateful to hashem for a wonderful, caring and loving husband. yes, there were some ups and downs, adjustments and disappointments along the way but i hardly believe things would have been otherwise had i dated my husband instead of beshowed. we are bh blessed with two precious children now 🙂
Would you like me to reset your password? – 29
Are you still a workaholic or is that your husband’s job now?
So you were beshowing three years ago. Chasidishe engagements are usually about a year long, so presumably you got married two years ago. Mazal Tov on your marriage and two children.
oh wow! B”H glad things worked out so well :)!
that would be nice 29, thanks! but how do i do that, i dont have access to the email i used when choosing my sn.
lior, lol, yep that’s my husbands job now although i do work a little as well. thank you.
cozimjewish, tnx.
I can reset your other screen name’s password. Just write the screen name and new password in a post and I will delete it after resetting the password – 29
It should work now.
You’re welcome!
“I never heard of any chosid who doesn’t have at least one beshow (i.e. a ‘date’), so this point isn’t relevant.”
But it IS relevant, because as I pointed out, one date isn’t enough. Plus beshows are frequently shorter than dates, and can even be chaperoned.
“I would venture the long-term success rate is better than those who date for a year or more.”
You must realize that there’s something in between one beshow and dating for a year. The number of frum couples I know who dated for a year or more I could count on one hand, and actually all of those are very happily married now.
You referred to a non-existent “no need to date” that I responded to (with quotations of your point.)
There is no evidence whether marriages are more successful following a single or small number of beshows versus dating for one to three months. You are speculating and others can as convincingly speculate the opposite point of yours.
Everybody should do two things:
1) Ask their rav for advice – he will help you decide the best thing FOR YOU (which in no way may be the best thing for somebody else)!!! and
2) Daven for siyata dishmaya. There is no way you can know if a marriage will or won’t work out, you can only try your best and leave it up to Hashem.
By “no need to date” I meant no need to include a dating stage of the relationship before engagement, which should have been clear since when “date” is used as a verb, it is never used to refer to a single date.
You are correct that there is no evidence regarding which method is more successful, and that anyone could speculate anything. I do not disagree with you on that point. I personally am not speculating either way, though– as you’ll see if you read my initial post on this thread, I don’t believe that dating and marriage are one-size-fits-all. I just wanted to point out that the available options are broader than your post indicated.
I know some Chassidim where their Beshow might have destroyed their lives, they felt forced to marry someone had kids and then the whole thing collalpsed and I know more modern people whom a Beshow might have been a good idea for them, they just never got married and such a thing might have enabled it
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