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In light of the hubub surrounding the “shabbos switch,” all halachic musings aside, the hashkafas that would allow such a thing to even be thought of should be concerning.
For example, I just received an advertisement for the latest and greatest Shabbos Lamp. As far as I know most people use them, maybe I’m wrong, but maybe we’ve made Shabbos so convenient and so accepted that its not such a stretch that someone would develop something like the shabbos switch.
Then again I don’t know were to draw the line, crockpot, hotplate? Timers in general.
Rav Moshe paskened l’halacha that it is assur to use a timer on Shabbos to turn on/off an air conditioner.
I’m sorry where on earth did you get the notion from that Shabbos isnt supposed to convenient?
The problems with Kosher switch are very real, R’ Moshe assered Timers, not because they are easy!
shabbos is described with words like oneg, menucha. Where does this idea that making it convenient is wrong in of itself?
shkoyach Joseph, there is not a single Posek in the world who is maskim or holds like Rav Moshe on this one.
For example, I just received an advertisement for the latest and greatest Shabbos Lamp. As far as I know most people use them, maybe I’m wrong,
What, precisely, is your *halachic* issue with the Kosher Lamp?
The Wolf
It’s easy only if you’ve grown up with Shabbos. What would you have us do. Shabbos is supposed to be an oneg and if there are ways to enhance the oneg, what is wrong with that? Would you have us sit in the dark because electricity may be viewed as assur?
This is the same argument I hear that Pesach should be a hardship and a struggle, and recent advances in food production has made ot too easy. Where do people get this idea that Shabbos and Yom Tov enjoyment = hardship and struggle.
From the Kosher innovations website:
I didnt see any ads for any particular items, but in general I find it very disheartening when shabbos is described as a day to survive and a new product is introduced to help us get through shabbos.
I wasn’t aware that baalei teshuva text on Shabbos
Why make things unnecessarily difficult?
Of course Shabbos is easy. Look at all the stuff you don’t have to do all day. No driving around, no need to check the internet to make sure the world hasn’t ended or your retirement accounts hasn’t tanked. No worry what messes Obama and the Israelis have gotten themselves into this time. No cooking. No cleaning. No bosses. It’s like you’ve slipped into a parallel universe and left all your troubles behind.
With timers and dubious “gramma”-hetered contraptions you can manage to make yourself miserable, but why bother. Do you really feel a need to turn on lights and watch television shows. Who wants a heter to be miserable? You have six days a week to suffer, and you want more?
“its only baalei teshuva who text on shabbos.”
Huh?
Akuperma,
Turning on lights makes you miserable?
apushatayid,
“its only baalei teshuva who text on shabbos.”
Huh?
I suspect that was a sarcasm fail on the part of oot for life.
i tend to agree with akuperma on this one. that being said, there are many situations where we need to find solutions for delicate problems (sick, elderly, etc.) and although bh we may not need tzomet or kosher switch devices, there are families that need them and if their poskim say its ok for them, it really doesnt bother me.
oot for life,
In light of the hubub surrounding the “shabbos switch,” all halachic musings aside, the hashkafas that would allow such a thing to even be thought of should be concerning.
I agree, the notion in the advertisements for the switch that Shabbos was an inconvenience was disturbing to me.
For example, I just received an advertisement for the latest and greatest Shabbos Lamp. As far as I know most people use them, maybe I’m wrong, but maybe we’ve made Shabbos so convenient and so accepted that its not such a stretch that someone would develop something like the shabbos switch.
Then again I don’t know were to draw the line, crockpot, hotplate? Timers in general.
I think there is a distinction between the notion of enhancing Shabbos or making Shabbos activities convenient, which is not problematic at all, and viewing Shabbos itself as inconvenient because we cannot do melachos, and trying to find ways around that to do melacha-like things.
Crockpots/hotplates/blechs enhance Shabbos because they allow us to have hot food.
The Shabbos lamp enhances Shabbos because it allows us to block out light to help us sleep.
These things have nothing to do with the fact that we are forbidden to do melachos on Shabbos. They are simply 100% permissible ways to bring us additional delight and comfort on Shabbos.
The Shabbos switch, on the other hand, is an attempt to “kasher” a melacha on Shabbos, because it’s so “difficult” to have to go without flipping lights on and off on Shabbos.
It’s a subtle difference, but a big one.
The Shabbos lamp enhances Shabbos because it allows us to block out light to help us sleep.
______________
The Shabbos switch, on the other hand, is an attempt to “kasher” a melacha on Shabbos, because it’s so “difficult” to have to go without flipping lights on and off on Shabbos.
It’s a subtle difference, but a big one.
I disagree. You wouldn’t have a lamp on if you couldn’t cover it, so the net gain is having light when you need it.
You may perceive the marketing as treating Shabbos as an inconvenience, and maybe that’s indeed the (very distasteful) marketing strategy, but the product itself can just as easily be used “to bring us additional delight and comfort on Shabbos”.
Aside from the significant melachah issues, the problems I have with it are that one can end up doing any melachah with a kosher switch – not true for a lamp, which is simply a cover, and the very fact that a melachah is taking place, as opposed to the lamp, is itself significant without the slippery slope argument.
DaasYochid,
I disagree. You wouldn’t have a lamp on if you couldn’t cover it, so the net gain is having light when you need it.
Yes, that is correct, and the way I said it incorrect. In my case, the light usually starts out uncovered (e.g., for reading) and is then closed for sleep, which is why I perceived that as the benefit. But if there were no Shabbos lamp, I’d have no light on in the room at all, so the true benefit is the light.
You may perceive the marketing as treating Shabbos as an inconvenience, and maybe that’s indeed the (very distasteful) marketing strategy,
Just out of curiosity, if you are familiar with the marketing that has been used, do you disagree that it treated Shabbos as an inconvenience?
but the product itself can just as easily be used “to bring us additional delight and comfort on Shabbos”.
In what way can that be so, other than providing the “delight and comfort” that only a melacha would accomplish?
I really don’t think it treated Shabbos itself as an inconvenience; I think it marketed the product as something which can help avoid inconvenience caused by Shabbos. I think Chazal did the same by instituting the mitzvah of hadlokas neiros, one reason for which is sholom bayis, “shelo yikashlu al eitzim va’avanim”. There’s still plenty to criticize about the marketing, though.
In what way can that be so, other than providing the “delight and comfort” that only a melacha would accomplish?
I agree that it’s wrong because it involves melachah; I was still addressing your chilluk between the KosherSwitch and the Kosher Lamp.
DaasYochid,
I agree that it’s wrong because it involves melachah; I was still addressing your chilluk between the KosherSwitch and the Kosher Lamp.
So essentially your point (in contrast to mine) is that the only problems with the Shabbos switch are:
1. The act (flipping the switch and the resulting chain of events) itself is forbidden.
2. It could lead to other melachos being performed on Shabbos (e.g., flipping a Shabbos switch to turn on a teapot), whereas a Shabbos lamp has no such issues.
The issues of how it was marketed, or what intentions were behind its development, are irrelevant. Do I understand your position correctly?
Not completely. There’s also:
3. The fact that a melachah is taking place through your actions, even if it were not technically considered even a grama, is objectionable.
The issues of marketing and intentuons are mostly between the developer and Hashem, and between he and the people (including poskim) he may have wronged along the way. I actually think he may have started with some good intentions, but got lost in his project and his judgment got clouded.
Is there a broader issue that some of us have the wrong perspective on Shabbos? Probably, but I don’t blame KosherSwitch for that.
DaasYochid,
Thanks for the responses. I hope you and everyone else reading this have a wonderful Shabbos and Yom Tov.
You too.
Do you agree with my responses?
DaasYochid,
Yes I do.
I saw another interview about the KosherSwitch the other day. Some woman who is using it just speaks about how much easier it makes things. How she once had a guest at her house who drank too much, and needed to stay over at their house. The basement was pitch black so she couldn’t prepare a bed, but thanks to the KosherSwitch, she was able to! Her kids turned off the bathroom light, but luckily, they had KosherSwitch! Then she makes a small comment about how her Rav says it’s ok to use.
I think they minimized the most important aspect of it: her Rav said it’s ok! I don’t look down on this woman at all. She is following a psak from her Rav, which is what she should be doing! But they put this out there to tell us, “Look, KosherSwitch will enhance your Shabbos!” But what about most of us, whose Rabbonim forbid using it? It doesn’t matter how much easier it makes things if we’re not allowed to use it!
The Rav the woman uses may or may not be knowledgeable. I have no clue who he is. But if he did make a mistake, and his congregants are using the switch because of it, he will be held responsible.
She is following a psak from her Rav, which is what she should be doing!
Are you sure about that? If a rav says something is permissible it’s permissible even if he is wrong? I don’t think so.
“If a rav says something is permissible it’s permissible even if he is wrong? I don’t think so.”
Are you arguing that one must fact check every psak given to them by their Rav, or to perhaps solicit the psak of several more rabbonim to ensure they get the same psak every time? The comment that the woman is following the psak of her Rav and therefore doing the correct thing, is a true and accurate comment.
Then she makes a small comment about how her Rav says it’s ok to use.
My guess is she is aware that most rabbonim do not approve. So, no, I don’t necessarily think it becomes ok simply because her rav said it’s ok.
Apy, so if my rav says I can boil water on Shabbos morning for my coffee, I should listen?
DaasYochid….
Yes, you should listen, that’s only polite. BUT if you know it’s wrong you don’t do it. The fact that your local Rav says something is permitted, isn’t the same as saying it is required.
I’m a lawyer, often I hear a judge make a ruling from the bench that I know is wrong. That’s what appeals courts are for.
“Apy, so if my rav says I can boil water on Shabbos morning for my coffee, I should listen?”
ctlawyer “Yes, you should listen, that’s only polite.”
He did not mean to ask- should he literally listen, and let the words hit his ear-drums. He meant should he listen to him i.e. should he follow him.
oy uy oy
“I’m a lawyer, often I hear a judge make a ruling from the bench that I know is wrong. That’s what appeals courts are for.”
Wow, I’m sure your clients are fine with that like you are- risking going to an appeals court and laying out more money for a lawyer. Thats why the Torah says we should not fear before any man (i.e. speak up in court if you know something is wrong).
Plus,I think this statement needs a “lehavdeel” thrown in there.
Newbee…
FYI…
I am semi-retired, my income practice does not involve litigation. I only appear in court for Pro Bono cases, generally representing youth in the Juvenile Court or Probate (equivalent of NY Surrogate’s) Court System. It doesn’t cost these clients one cent for me to represent them or appeal rulings that are incorrect.
BTW, I understood the poster’s use of the word ‘listen’ to me ‘follow’ but allowed for the true meaning of the English word as to mean hear the expression, not adhere to the advice/instructions. We learn in law school to never ask a question to which we don’t already know the answer. So if you know from experience how your Rav will answer and feel it will be an answer you should not follow, don’t ask.
I understood the poster’s use of the word ‘listen’ to me ‘follow’ but allowed for the true meaning of the English word as to mean hear the expression, not adhere to the advice/instructions.
Spoken like a true lawyer.
So if you know from experience how your Rav will answer and feel it will be an answer you should not follow, don’t ask.
Who said anything about asking?
DY: You’re being absurd. If your Rav was part of a minority who hold something is Assur, how would you react if I told you that you shouldn’t listen to your Rav because you know he’s outvoted? You’re doing the same thing.
I think the switch is an Issur D’Oraisa, personally. But you can’t tell me that there aren’t any Poskim who are Mattir it. There are, including several prominent Sephardi ones. So if her Rav holds like the Mekilim, who are you to tell her to ignore them?
If he said it against a clear majority of poskim from this and the previous generation, I might very well react the same way.
“but allowed for the true meaning….”
Ha, I didn’t know we could allow for such things.
“It doesn’t cost these clients one cent for me to represent them or appeal rulings that are incorrect.”
Thanks thats good to know, but I am sure other lawyers who are not nice like you where is does cost their clients wont loose sleep at night for having to go back to court again.
Newbee…
B”H I’ve made a good living over the years. Professionally I handle the affairs of 5 generations of one family. Anything from their trusts, contracts, property transactions or the occasional aynekele who gets into trouble.
I’m paid a salary to do this and be on call for their needs all through the year. My arrangement does not allow me to take any other paid legal work, but does permit me to take Pro Bono Juvenile work. Not only do I find it rewarding, but my clients feel it is part of their efforts at Tikkun Olam.
And as both and adoptive parent and a licensed foster parent I know how badly children need qualified representation while they go through the court system, not the fleeting attention of a court appointed lawyer being paid $25 hr, who meets the child for the first time in court.
Gnug, I’ll get off my soapbox
CTLAWYER: Thats great, like I said in my last post, I am sure you are a nice person.
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