Is recreational cannabis muttar?

Like far out, man.

It’s assur. Rav Moshe has a good teshuvah about it–can someone post it in English, please?

Some people may appear to use it without negative consequences, but in fact, for many people it tends to have many negative effects — anxiety, paranoia, panic attacks, laziness, lack of motivation, psychological dependence, lack of normal physical and emotional maturation, focusing on maximizing physical pleasures and desires, etc. A large proportion of users have serious anxiety problems from it. Several studies show that young people who use it have twice the rate of schitzophrenia and psychosis–which by the way, are incurable.

As Rebbe Nachman said about tobacco–what, do we not have enough cravings in this world that you need to add another one?

Just think of how many tzaddikim have lived b’simcha throughout the ages without ever trying marijuana (or wanting to)! Davening, fasting, a little l’chaim — we Yidden already have plenty of time-tested ways to alter our consciousness. It’s not necessary and it poses dangers — so why try it?

At the same time, yes, it should be legalized, since the Torah frowns on prison as a punishment anyway, and there are better ways of reducing drug use and dealing with addiction than locking up addicts in prison. But that doesn’t mean we should use it.

I am 100% against Pot smoking, however it is likely not any more dangerous than Alchohol and I see plenty of frum jews get drunk on Purim, Simchas torah, Shabbos and other times

groissechuchum
“ingesting/smoking marijuana for sure will leave one lightheaded and not able to learn. it also affects memory”

So can alcohol.

“ingesting/smoking marijuana for sure will leave one lightheaded and not able to learn.”

No one who actually smokes pot will attest to this. That is not what pot does. On the contrary, pot can enable a person to shteig very seriously and substantially. Nor does pot alter your mind, generally speaking, although like many permissible things it can have side effects. Taken right, it enhances your awareness.

Of course it’s a mind altering drug. That’s kind of the whole point for its recreational use.

In galus:

The Ari Z”L says quite openly that the galus of Mitzrayim was a galus of daas. The minds of Klal Yisroel were in galus. There are probably multiple ways of understanding this. There was a slave mentality. In your case, your comment, as well as screen name suggest someone who is “out to lunch” or “in galus”. No, I’m not name calling. I am attacking your comment, being completely stupid and not factual.

The precise problem of cannabis is that its mind altering effects lack the drama of the “high” that accompanies many other drugs. The person under the influence of pot believes himself to be perfectly normal, even more aware. That feature is sometimes called denial, perhaps other labels. But in multiple studies, the person under the influence of cannabis cannot maintain scores on so many tests that measure acuity, reaction time, memory, decision making, etc. I am personally acquainted with people who, while still using pot, insisted they could understand a piece of Gemora better than when sober. Yet, if one engages them in some dialogue while under the influence, one discovers that there is no one home. I have tried it. You are failing to sell me the package that pot in any way truly enhances anything. Things that are not humorous at all trigger laughter. Purely mundane things spark interest. Non-musical percussion is experienced as music to enjoy. All absurdities that defy reality. You are totally wrong about shteiging on pot.

Galus—there is more than one type of marijuana. The differences between Sativa, Indica and hybrids are enormous. Pure Sativa would help in learning, as it energizes and enhances. However, the hybrids generally focus on keeping the “energy” of Sativa and mixing it with the “head high” of Indica. Certain hybrids can even cause hallucinations!!!(Even though weed generally does not). Besides for that, the general culture around Marijuana use is not at all conducive for learning.(i was part of that culture for three years ignored my teens את חטאתי אני מזכיר היום).
Gadolhadora—Many poskim would in fact say that tobacco is Assur. I don’t know of anyone who allows casual “heavy” (enough to get one drunk) drinking. Even Chabad, which is known to drink much—it is meant to be 4 shots of vodka at a tish—correct me if I’m wrong chabadshlucha and seichel.

Not all marijuana was created equal. The effects vary greatly depending on the strain. Furthermore it effects each individual in a different way. While it may make one person lazy it can make the next motivated while it may make some dumbed down it can make the next more intelligent etc. Another factor is the amount ingested. So to make a generalization would just be ridiculous.

P.s. its definitely less dangerous than alcohol and tobacco

It’s amazing the lengths people will go to defend their actions which are simply based on tremendous weakness of character.

Pot is most definitely assur, dangerous and stupid. Not necessarily in that order.

Any comparison to kiddush wine, a glass of wine with dinner, or even drunkenness on Purim and Simchas Torah, is so ridiculous as to make the motivation for the argument completely transparent.

to address the OP:

Cannabis is mentioned throughout the gemara, rishonim and achronim. The gemara menachos 15b, for example:
דתנן
היתה שדהו זרועה קנבוס ולוף לא יהא זורע על גביהם שהן עושות לשלש שנים

The Shulchan Aruch says to beautify the shabbos candles use a wick made of cannabis (although he probably meant hemp).

There is also discussion in the rishonim about using cannabis for skhakh.

All of the above most probably point to hemp being used but was cannabis used the way it is today?

There are some suggestions that yes.

The late achronim debate whether it is kitniyos. The Radbaz, when describing uses of cannabis in relation to kilyaim laws says its used for hemp and also gives a person simcha.

The Rambam talks about cannabis as it relates to kilayim but in his medical writings writes extensively above using it for medicinal purposes.

Rav Moshe, of course, assured it in Yoreh Deah 3:35 for dina demalchusa and also all the reasons given in the comments above.

assurnet,

So something like cannabis doesn’t take you out of a certain state of consciousness that you would naturally be in otherwise but rather pushes you further along in a certain direction along the spectrum.

Altering a changeable variable vs. a fixed variable is still altering. Your psychology reference strengthens the argument against using marijuana. As Jews, we understand that operating in certain parts of the mindfulness “spectrum” as you say is ideal. Torah and mitzvos are intended to push us towards a more centered and long-range viewpoint, where we can see the situation at hand within the context of the idea that we are servants of Hashem, rather than a cork bobbing along in a tempest. Therefore, we should utilize sleep, food, music, etc. to help us get to those beneficial places on the “spectrum”, not let the “spectrum” dictate how we act and perceive the world. Yes our state of mind changes a lot, but we are still responsible for ourselves.

I’ve known some people who tell me they ability to study certain non-religious subjects was greatly enhanced by it.

Ever have a dream where you believe you’ve had an incredible insight, that you’ve figured something amazing out, and then woken up and realized that your idea was a jumble of nonsense? That’s the enhancement of marijuana. It doesn’t make learning better. It makes nonsense look like genius.

But what about something lighter like putting on your headphones and listening to a good shiur?

A good shiur may be relaxing to some, but recreation is not the ikkar of Torah learning.

I’ve personally found that when I contemplate inyanim of kedusha I sometimes get profoundly deeper insights than I would normally get and once I “come off of it” I feel a renewed and deeper appreciation for Hashem and His mitzvas and a stronger desire to fulfill them.

Until your next brownie, where you then lose lots of mitzvah opportunities because you cannot focus on gemara, or cannot drive to visit the sick, or bring food to a family with a newborn, or handle your children with clarity. The yetzer hara is extremely wily.

It’s like packing 500 mussar shmuzes into one hour.

Ridiculous. If 500 mussar shmuzes were on one side of a self-improvement scale, and a bong was on the other, you really think they’d balance out?

I remember reading in an Aryeh Kaplan book or essay that part of the reason we have wine for kiddush on Friday night and Chagim is for the alcohol to help lift up our state of mind to help us better appreciate the kedusha of the special day.

Then why don’t kohanim duchen by Simchas Torah mussaf? Surely their state of mind is lifted to help them better appreciate their people and the flow of bracha that should come to them from Hashem?

But if somebody could use it (again responsibly and in moderation) and potentially maybe even grow in their ovadat Hashem do we still write that off from a Torah perspective?

That’s a big “if”. And not even the big marijuana advocates are silly enough to present arguments like that. They argue for medicinal (pain relief) purposes – that it may be a better choice than opioids, for example, and recreational purposes – that the government inconsistently forbids marijuana as a recreational activity while allowing other activities that may be more harmful.

Golden nuggets of wisdom,

it’s a matter of menorah. Our parents and grandparents in Europe didn’t light up and therefore neither should we

I think I do have a mesora from my great grandparents in Europe of lighting up a menora.

We are servants of the Creator, and while the servitude is benevolent, there is no down time. Engaging in anything that harms your tzelem is insubordination. That includes the goings on on Purim, and for some every shabbos and Chag.

What about Ciggarettes?

Seeing yngerleit and even some of their rabbonim engaging in the disgust habit of smoking right outside of the doors of the yeshiva/beis medrash is a much greater chilul hashem than cannabis. The selective morality (aka getting drunk on purim is OK) is contradicted by the efforts in recent years to limit or eliminate excess drinking by most roshei yeshivos and askanim affiliated with various mosdos.

Several posters note that canabis (in moderation) is no more dangerous than alcohol (in moderation) and probably less dangerous than tobaco. Why don’t we seriously consider assuring both alcohol and tobacco.

Because those posters are wrong.

You’re all missing the big picture here.

If the liberals all start smoking grass, that will keep them passive, effectively removing them as a political force.

If the military air-dropped massive amounts of the stuff on the terrorists, they’d stop doing terrorism.

If the police distributed free stuff to the violent mobs, they’d sit around smoking the stuff instead of doing violence.

DY

Please tell us how you know Cannabis is more dangerous than Tobacco or Alchoul?

Tobacco causes Lung cancer, Emphasema , mouth Cancer , throat cancer and more

Alchol causes Drunk Driving (Probably the biggest killer related to Alcohol) cirrhosis of the liver, It can cause Alchol poisoning which can kill

Also Tobacco and Alcohol are addictive. Canabis is not addictive. I am not advocating people get high, one should never do that as things can happen then, but its not any more dangerous than Ciggarettes or Alcohol

DY:

This will drag the thread into a different direction, which perhaps should have a thread of its own (if I recall, there have been threads on this), but i challenge what you wrote: “And it should be limited to Purim and perhaps Simchas Torah when it’s a mitzvah/minhag.”

Our Gedolim have spoken openly about the myth of serious intoxication on Purim as being plain old yetzer horah. It is fairly clear from the poskim that the “dead drunk” is not the intent of the mitzvah on Purim. Next, I still await to hear something reputable about drinking on Simchas Torah. I asked around several poskim and dayanim I know, and none was able to find a source for this “mitzvah” or “minhag”. Someone once challenged me on my revulsion to drunkenness on Simchas Torah by claiming that it was unfair to see it as negative. After a painful month of Elul, with the requisite cheshbon hanefesh and teshuvah, there was selichos, then Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, then the Sukkos mitzvos, one needs a break, and the imbibing on Simchas Torah is that chance to let go. This was cast as if it was Toras Hachasidus. I was as disgusted by this perverse thinking as I am by shikruso shel Lot. Maybe on these two Yomim Tovim, there should be a mitzvah to smoke weed? I am sure the Satan will derive much nachas from this, and I am convinced that HKB”H will not accept this as positive anything.

Meno, cannabis is considered the PC term.

Whattosay, weed absolutely can kill you. It may not poison you to death directly, but it can cause accidents, which are also a common way that alcohol kills.

It’s true that more people die from alcohol and tobacco. But that doesn’t mean that marijuana is less dangerous.

Marijuana causes major mental health problems, from anxiety to psychosis (ever heard of druggies who are “burn outs”–who have basically lost their minds? It happens). There is also growing evidence of its addictiveness.

It negatively affects short-term memory, dulls your mind, reduces motivation, and makes you focus on physical pleasures, while sometimes giving you the false impression you’ve come to some great insight, which turns out not to make any sense when you try to tell people who aren’t stoned—all bad things for one’s avodas Hashem.

Drunkeness is very bad, and totally assur (as is all tobacco use), but small amounts of alcohol have safe and predictable effects.

TLIK: You’re right there’s no real justification for getting drunk on Simchas Torah, and even on Purim getting drunk is prohibited according to many authorities.

It’s not actually illegal. Besides, I think we might have been enemies before.

It is difficult to compare issurim to determine which is worse. I think enough commenters here recognize the issurim on excessive alcohol, tobacco, and weed.

If you’ll notice, the potheads here are arguing that weed is okay because alcohol and tobacco are bad.

You can argue that they’re bad, but when you make them all somehow pretty much equivalent, you support the potheads. Since smoking and drinking are considered socially acceptable, you can argue all you want that they shouldn’t be, and I’ll agree with you 99%, but let’s not conflate them; let’s acknowledge that marijuana is much worse.

DY is actually right about the science. Pot has more carcinogenic content than tobacco; the real question is why do so many people believe it’s the other way around?

For starters, people who smoke tobacco often smoke 20 cigarettes. Nobody is smoking 20 reefers a day. Pot smokers who do end up with lung cancer have always been people who also smoked tobacco, so there’s never been a case of someone getting lung cancer purely from pot (to my knowledge). That is the basis of the “pot doesn’t cause cancer” myth. Breathing in campfire smoke, coal smoke, paper burning smoke, etc. is bad for your lungs. The idea that there’s this one magical plant that breaks that rule is laughable.

I think there’s a real halachic debate to be had, especially about whether or not it would be theoretically mutar on Purim, but clearly that’s not the direction this thread went. The pro-pot posters have made their agenda very clear.