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what do you think?
YWN posted a story that he even “davened” for him
I don’t think he is crazy I think he is sick and evil.
He is either a total psycopath or a heartless cold blooded killer who dosen’t even get shaken after doing something so horrible, he went to work the next day and acted totaly normal.
I think he did the murder after coming home from work Tuesday, just a few hours before he was caught.
to the best of my knowledge he has no history of mental illness.
I honestly dont think anyone 100% normal can do such a thing however I cant accurately say what specifically is wrong with him. But that brain is not a normal one.
BTW does it matter if we think he is crazy or not? Our opinion will not be asked by the jury or the judge. So why are we bothering with all these threads?
bomb, do you really think someone in with full mental health would do something like this? A history or not, I think everyone would agree that he is mentally ill.
The ultimate judge, Ribono Shel Olam, has that task. We are so quick to convict. Concentrate on the healing process in a positive way. The rozaiach’s punishment will be metered out to him in good time. To question H-shem why this happened is not the Jewish way. Rezoin haborai is ultimate and supreme without question or doubt. This is a goyish mentality to make a media conviction. Do not misunderstand me for one second, in no way shape, form or size am I condoning this appalling act.
I think we are all rachmanim, and we can’t imagine anyone doing anything like this unless they were crazy. I was thinking that myself, but somebody told me that today there are very explicit movies and websites, and people could get sunk into such experiences where this type of unspeakable horror loses its ‘impossible to do’ status. There is very little logic to what happened in this tragedy. Many are saying that the achdus and the tears that came out are what Hashem wants from us. I would add that the addiction to the internet and the watching of inappropriate stuff might also be the message – because now matter how weird this guy looks, i don’t think he would have been capable of what he did, had he not been been spending a lot of time watching crazy stuff. May each person be zoche to correct his faults so that we can return purely to Yerushalayim with Moshiach.
The fact that it was a random killing, and not targeted, it is a reason for insanity.
A person can be judged insane, but guilty. Do you think Hitler Y”Sh was a SANE man, or Saddam Hussein, or David Berkowitz? I am sorry that people have this type of mental illness, but they are still guilty of horrific crimes and cannot get away with them because they are crazy.
Clearly Levi Aron knew what he was doing when he kidnaped Leiby and shlepped him to a wedding in Monsey. He further had enough wits about him to PANIC when he realized how many people were searching for the boy, and commit an act of violence that stuns the world, not just the Jewish community. I am sorry for his family, who will forever live with the knowledge of their raising such a twisted monster.
Media conviction?
The kids body was in his fridge, the kids actual blood was on his hands and body when the cops found him
There is a diference between someone who is insane and someone who is crazy. Obviously onyone who can do something so horrific is very sick, but that dosen’t mean he didn’t have control on what he was doing. Someone who is insane to the point of not being responsible for what he does is not able to keep a job, drive a car and apear as a regular member of sociaty.
Yes he is crazy!!!!!
Whether they label him officially insane or not, I am 100% positive that a normal person wouldn’t have done the terrible things he did.
No, Kapusta, that’s where you’re wrong. At least when you would equate a murderer with someone who has a “mainstream” mental illness. They are not the same, and one is not necessarily mentally ill in the clinical sense when they commit murder. There may be other factors involved such as past experiences, events in his life which have made him callous toward human life, etc…but just because a person does something unspeakable which you cannot explain does NOT mean that they must be mentally ill in the clinical sense.
As I said, to the best of my knowledge, Levi had no history of mental illness. I understand that it is easy to blame what he did on a mental illness, but you’re just wrong about that. Thought you should know. As Aries said, he wasn’t mentally ill, just evil. There is a difference. Now he may not be wired the same, much in the same way that I am far less emotional than your average person, does that make me mentally ill? No. It makes me different.
Based on my knowledge of drug use by a sibling of the accused, I would assume that he too used drugs and that may be the cause of his actions. One never knows what effects these illicit substances will have on one’s brain the the future.
He had to be insane at the time of the murder
He was pure evil!
When he saw the flyers indicatiing that Leiby was misssing, he chose to be a murderer rather than a liar.
He could have claimed to have found him then collect the reward. Instead he massacred an innocent child!
Just a thought to prove that he is PURE EVIL!!!!
AC: The child would have told the cops that Aron picked him up from the street if he let him out. That’s probably what went through Aron’s mind.
There is more to the story. I don’t believe much of the monsters confession…he has yet to say what fully happened, we will probably never know for sure…let’s take this tragedy to build up kal yisroel instead of using our differences as a wedge. It’s time that MO, yeshivish, chasidish, sephardic, come together and support one another… What else are we supposed to take from this??
Why is it ok to insult all the truly mentally ill people in the world by suggesting that rishus and evil can only be perpetrated by mentally ill people? Why is it so hard to accept that 100% healthy individuals are more than capable of doing the most horrendous acts of violence?
I also see no reason to blame tv or movies for planting the seeds of violence in his or anyone’s mind to do things like this. Human beings have been known to commit acts of unspeakable violence waaaay before tv and movies. Further more, if tv and movies is in fact a precursor for violence, then folks like Quentin Tarantino and all the other producers and directors of action and scary films should be killing and hurting everyone and there’s no record of this. Did the Nazis learn to be violent and cruel from TV & movies? Were all the Nazis mentally ill people?
Each one of us has the human capacity to do horrible acts of violence if we allow ourselves to. On the other hand as humans we also have the exquisite power to perform equally powerful acts of kindness and goodness.
Each day we all live with tests and we can go either way. Live as a hero or a villain, it’s up to you.
Droid,
SO HE WOULD HAVE LIED!!! Better than to come out a killer.
Furthermore, he could have convinced Leiby that he saw he was lost and had intentions to bring him to his parents, blah blah……Strong possibility that he could have pulled it off!
There is no doubt watching killing on TV and movies devalue human life in the eyes of its viewers.
Rishus IS perpetrated by sane people. This act of violence goes way beyond rishus. It would have been rishus to kill the boy. What this twisted man did goes against all human decency. Nobody normal could kill a child and put his body parts in his freezer.
maybe he didnt try to kill him. maybe its a case of manslaughter not murder.
The mentally I’ll have lofty neshamas. The Chason Ish would stand when they entered a room. the monster was just that, a monster…Tv, movies, and music is not at fault. This evil was done by a sick person. May his name be wiped out forever.
mikehall12382: The expression ‘Yimach Shmo’ which means ‘ may his name be wiped out’ I have heard is not meant to be applied to any Jew however wicked he is. Please see the other thread ‘ The evil monster is still a Jew’ for discussion of this and a source too.’
It is a basic tenet of Judaism (and there are also scores of examples in Jewish history and literature) that ANY evildoer can repent and achieve atonement for his sins however many or degraded they are. It is not a quick and easy fix – but it is achievable. No Jewish soul is outcast entirely.
Why does it have to be either one? IMO, he’s both -crazy and evil!
Whether they can use the “insanity defense”, we will find out this week the results of his psych testing. As far as a Din “Shoiteh”, that is only when there was a Bais Din did they have to look into that aspect, it makes no difference to us here in our times.
otb: So Levi Aron is able to do teshuva and atone for this sin?
Droid, yes. Murderers are not excluded from Teshuva as far as I recall. I am sure it won’t come easy but possible? Yes. Kayin comes to mind. Nevuzeradan even more so. He killed over 14,000 innocent people – then did Tshuva (I’m sure it was no easy ride) and became a Ger Tzedek. (Sanhedrin 96b).
Again don’t get me wrong. The enormity and depravity of what Aron did is not in any way lessened. A murderer is a murderer and without Tshuva he is the worst of the worst. It still is just a huge unfathomable kindness of Hashem that no matter how low, how wicked, how depraved a person has become – He is still our Father and with the necessary true effort anybody can return. This is stated many times in Chazal, Rambam, Sharei Tshuva of Rabenu Yonah and countless other seforim. What Tikunim are necessary I don’t know – but a lost case? Chas Veshalom. L’val yidach mimenu nidach.
With the cruelty this monster has done, I can’t believe it came from a Jewish neshamas…the teshuva that is required to atone for what he has done is probably not attainable by the evil doer. We are not talking about eating treif or talking back to your parents. What he has done has probably severed his neshamas from kal yisroel forever… I would be curious to know what a Rav would say about the possibility of teshuva, I will ask the next time I have a chance to speak with my Rav…Further more he would be required to get teshuva accepted by leiby’s parents as well as from HAshem since his crime was against both. Something I doubt is possible.
mikehall – when you do speak to a Rav – ask him about Nevuzeradan who achieved Tshuva after butchering over 14,000 innocents ( Sanhedrin 96b).
“Crazy” isn’t a very exact term. If he does indeed hear voices, and is not just making it up as an excuse, then he is almost certainly schizophrenic. However, that determination has to be made by a psychiatrist who is experienced in examining people accused of serious crimes. We certainly don’t have the knowledge or experience to do it, so let’s wait for the experts.
And of course there is one Judge who knows it all, and will judge Levi Aron with emes when the time comes.
It is a basic tenet of Judaism (and there are also scores of examples in Jewish history and literature) that ANY evildoer can repent and achieve atonement for his sins however many or degraded they are.
Except Acher, of course.
The Wolf
I see there are so many posts on this topic. I admit I did not read all of them in their entirety. So I don’t know if this was mentioned.
I don’t think we will ever know the TRUE story of what happened. Levi Aron could tell whatever story he wants but only Leiby knows what REALLY happened! But unfortunately he is not here to refute Aron’s stories. That is a very sad and tragic part of this case.
Other than Leiby, Hashem is the only one who knows the truth. He will make sure Levi Aron is judged appropriately whether here or in the olam haemes.
Our hearts go out to the Kletzky family.
According to C?aza”l a ???? (someone who is not responsible for his actions because he is insane) is someone who keeps loosing his possesions, ????? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ?? so someone who can keep a job, drive a car, take care of his own apartment is not insane, he is a coold blooded evil ????!!!
deiyezooger – I was just saying the same thing to my family. He was sane enough to hold a job and lead a somewhat normal life. ok – ppl said he was strange. there are a lot of strange ppl around. I do agree that there has to be something wrong with him mentally, but I also think he’s “normal” enough to be held accountable for his horrific actions.
R’ Mayer got him into Olam Haboh. It says his Kever smoked for a year and then it stoppped and he went up. It doesn’t say whether he did Teshuva or not.
The bas kol said that Acher’s teshuva would not be acceptable.
The Wolf
we still quote him in Pirkei Avos, I don’t think we would quote someone that didn’t get a kaparah for what he did
We also quote Bilaam.
The Wolf
Wolf – “The bas kol said that Acher’s teshuva would not be acceptable.”
And he got a Kappara anyway.
CA – I don’t have a Yerushalmi at home. Why don’t you post it?
And he got a Kappara anyway.
Yes, but not through his teshuva, but rather other means. If he did teshuva, it was not accepted.
You’re equating “got a kappara” with “teshuva was accepted.” They are not the same.
The Wolf
bomb, I never said he had a “mainstream” (to use your word) mental illness. I know very little about mental illness (of any kind) but I would think an murderer would fit the profile of someone who is mentally ill = mental illness. A person is naturally healthy or sick. There are different levels of sick, but someone sick is not a healthy person. This is just a matter of wording though.
(FYI, I read somewhere that he was in an accident as a child and since then there were some issues.)
wolf -“You’re equating “got a kappara” with “teshuva was accepted.” They are not the same.”
I am?? Where did I post his “teshuva was accepted.”?!?!
Maybe you’re getting mixed up between me and the Coffee guy???
Maybe you’re getting mixed up between me and the Coffee guy???
Maybe I am. If so, my apologies.
The Wolf
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