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Regarding the Chazon Ish neurosurgery story, as has been discussed here previously, there is no source other than books quoting other books with no name of a doctor or hospital or patient so that it can be verified.
In additon, if it was true about the Chazon Ish, then gedolim of today should be able to do the same thing. But yet, the Steipler and Reb Moshe and today’s gedolim all go to hospitals and submit to the doctors treatments. They do not stay home and treat themselves with their advanced knowledge of medicine. None have claimed any knowledge of curing cancer.
Finally, there is a tshuva in Reb Elyashiv’s sefer regaring whether one can lie and make up stories of gedolim to inspire talmidim. That pretty much says it all.
(Reb Elyashiv strongly discouraged it, in response.)
Pointing out instances where either Chazal themselves, or Raboseinu Rishonim vaAcharonim were wrong in scientific knowledge is not necessarily denying their greatness, unless one specifically wishes to do so. In that case, it is being mevaze Talmidei chachomim and one is deemed an apikores.
If the goal is NOT trying to prove them wrong for its own sake, or to aggrandize one’s own superiority, one may actually be doing something correct. You do not need an obscure Midrash to see that some information is at odds with reality, or that Chazal themselves have admitted that their knowledge was faulty. This, latter fact is of incredible value in this argument, because, had their scientific knowledge been obtained strictly from the Torah, they would have never changed their minds to agree with the Greek or the Roman scientists of the day. When Rabbi and Antoninus were discussing the motion of the sun (in Sanhedrin), Rebbi admitted the Roman to be in the right. Had Rebbi’s knowledge stemmed strictly from the mesorah, he would have had no right to admit that his reasoning was incorrect. There are great many examples of our sages’ acceptance of the words and arguments of the gentile scientists. Even stronger is the argument that many a time when they admitted the scientist to be correct, that very information that they did agree to was later disproven as well. Had their secondary stance been derived from the Torah alone, how could have it been so patently proven wrong later?
Yes, Chazal tell us that ALL the wordly knowledge is contained in the Torah, and we must and do accept that as a fact. However, that does NOT mean that Chazal themselves understood every scientific fact and nuance thereof from the Primary Source. They knew that it is alluded to therein, and that one COULD obtain that information from the Torah, yet, they never claimed that THEY actually had all of it revealed to them. Their humility and love of truth wouldn’t allow for such statements. It does no service to the honor of Chazal to state that they were correct even in their obvious mistakes, let alone that these mistakes are actually Torah based truths.
When it comes to latter day sages, their scientific knowledge was even more derived from the gentile world, with all its wrongful facts and assumptions. Many Rishonim maintained that the Earth is flat, as Rashi interprets the Gemara of mayim shelonu, and Rashi himself, in Asara Yuchasin states that Tigris and Euphrates flow from south to north, deriving that from a posuk regarding “nahar yotze me’Eiden”. (There exist very long debates on the topic of these four rivers. How can anyone say that the Rishonim KNEW what they are from the Torah-based geography, when they debate whether one is the Nile or Ganges, with each side bringing proofs from the pesukim AND geography?)
There were rishonim that believed in warewolves, mermaids, sirens, and other non-existant creatures. Rambam quotes almost verbatim from Galen, whose knowledge of human anatomy was in fact derived from dissecting apes, and who was proven to be absolutely wrong, after 1400 years of blind acceptance. Let’s not forget the famous debate between the Rambam and the Ramban as to whether the Moon is a heavenly body or a mere apparition. Whether one wishes to rely on Mr. Armstrong’s footprint or not, one is wrong and the other is right, since their statements are mutually exclusive. This has nothing to do with the age of the Universe, or the Big Bang, and it is not as easy to dismiss as spontaneous generation of lice, which one can tweak into meaning “Chazal’s interpretation of having a spiritual existance”. Even regarding Sheidim and witchcraft, the Rambam disagrees with Chazal, stating that these do not exist, even if explicitly mentioned in the Mishna and the Beraisa.
Our reliance on Chazal as the final arbiters of Halacha, which WAS transmitted from Sinai, doesn’t depend on their knowledge of science, geography, or astronomy. The halachos of Kiddush HaChodesh are independant of existance of the Crab Nebula, or of the fact that the Zodiac is in reality NOT a set of 12 constellations, but only appears alligned as such. Ascribing to our sages infallibility in natural sciences in the face of obvious errors only detracts from following their halachic rulings, since one may begin to feel that if they were wrong in factual matters, they could have easily been wrong in halachic ones, too. Just as our respect for the Rambam isn’t due to his being a great physician in his time, but on his knowledge of the Torah, and there is no inconsistancy in accepting his psak while acknowledging his mistakes in medicine and astronomy.
Studying science reveals to us the magnitude of Creation and the greatness of the Creator. Only those who are afraid to shake their own self-serving values would continue to postulate that whatever wrongful information was sated by Chazal must be accurate, despite obvious facts. Yet, is it really self-serving? The only gain is that one ascribes to the greatest chachomim his own mediocrity and feels a need to emphatically state that those who seached for the truth didn’t.
EDITED
Davar acher, though tangential, for those interested in early ideas of flight, the Rambam in Shmona Prakim discusses the unreliability of the imagination, saying it can conceive the impossible(sheker), such as a “steel ship flying in the air”. I was giving a Machshava shiur in this in a community near JFK in the Shabbos afternoon rush hour. I dont think any of those participants left with an idea of scientific infallibility of the Chachamim.
Rema — Toras HaOlah (1:2) — We assume rabbinic science to be infallible, and ancient rabbinic knowledge of astronomy complete.
Aruch Hashulchan — EH 13 — “I will tell you a great principle: Chazal, besides their holiness and wisdom in the Torah, were also greater scholars in the natural sciences those savants (“mischakmim”) who would argue against their pure words. And someone who disagrees with them testifies about himself that he does not believe in Torah she bal peh, even though he would be embarrassed to admit it outright.”
Chasam Sofer — Drashos Chasam Sofer Vol. 1 p.100b — Our phophets and sages know all the sciences much better than the scientists.
Ran — Drashos #13 — points out that the statement of R. Yochana (Sanhedrin 100a) had no halachic relevance at all – it was merely an Agadic interpretation, and the disagreement was regarding a scientific fact, yet the student was punished for not believing in its truth.
Rav Yiztchok Izak Chaver — Magen Vtzenah (p. 49) — there are people who reject Chazal’s statements because the secular scientists disagree, and they laugh saying that we know its not true. They are fools.
Chida — Shem Hagedolim: “Seforim”:5:82 — There are those among us who disagree with Chazal because of their scientific knowledge, but they do not understand that Chazal had Eliyhau Hanavi informing them, and they had Ruach HaKodesh to inform them.
“How does the fact that Hashem said the sun should shine in the day and the stars at night prove that Hashem created the sun and stars in literally 24 hours?”
646 –
The Gemora says this expicitly. It describes 10 things that were created on the first day of creation, one of which is the “length of the day and night” – as it says, “vayehi erev vayehi voke yom echad”. So the time span of the day was created on the first day of creation. And, as Rashi states, it means “[the day and night together] – i.e. 24 hours between them”.
BS”D
Starwolf, it so happens that I read all or part of that politically biased report about where advances in medicine supposedly come from. The author has an agenda, to put it mildly, and that agenda is similar to Obamacare.
The rest of your post is biased as well.
Sadly, yes, there are drones sitting in koilel and that is why the system needs to be revamped.
And in the US, EY and Europe, not here where research is dead anyway, there are many drones doing worthless research in the public sector.
The koilel benchwarmers are a drop in the bucket even if they are getting welfare and section 8. The fat in the public science sector costs hardworking taxpayers billions.
The Yerushalmi says that a Chodesh is established by witnesses, and some girl has her third birthday on that Rosh Chodesh, she gets her besulim and can lose them with a man, but if later those witnesses were proven Zomemim, and we realize she was never three to begin with, nature follows the Torah and her Besulim grow back. This process is obviously not scientific but miraculous, and with no Kidush HaCHodesh until Moshiach comes, its going to be difficult for the scientists to observe the process.
Regarding the Rambam, Reb Yaakov Kaminetzky said that the Rambam’s Hilchos Deos were not intended to be Torah, but rather the Rambam’s secular wisdom. He said, by way of proof, that the Rambam there says the moon is a sentient entity, and now we “see” on TV that it is only a rock.
Rav Schneur Kotler ZTL said that this statement of Reb Yaakov “may not be said”, and that he remembers that Rav Meir Simcha of Dvinsk ZT’L once said that there are people who hold like this regarding the Rambam, and they are totally wrong, and he (Rav Meir Simchah) would really write a sefer showing that every word of the Rambams Hilchos Deos is culled from Chazal, but the Malbim already wrote such a Sefer so he doesnt need to. Rav Schneur continued, that nobody knew what Rav Meir Simcha was referring to by the Sefer of the Malbim until a few years ago (like 30 years ago from today) they reprinted a Kuntres from the Malbim showing that the Rambam’s Hilchos Deos was all from Chazal.
Rabbi Menachem Kasher (author of Torah Sheleimah) wrote a Sefer called “HaAdam al Hayareach”, where he devotes all of chapter 4 to this Rambam. He, too, quotes from the Zohar in a different place to support the Rambam: “Does then the ground so sentient? Yes, as it says (Mishle 3:19) ‘Hashem with wisdom founded the land'” Meaning, He created a land that possesses wisdom. He also quotes more. Rav Chaim Kanievsky also quotes sources throughout Hilchos Deos showing where in Chazal they come from.
About the Rambam and the Zohar, it is true, though not everyone concurs; the consensus is that the Rambam did not have the Zohar. Nevertheless, there are statements in the Rambam that have no source other than the Zohar (such as “Whoever gets angry is as if he worshipped idols”). The explanations given for this is that the Rambam had Medrashim that we no longer have, plus the Rambam was able to be “mechaven” to Kabbalah even though he did not have the sources.
The Yerushalmi says that a Chodesh is established by witnesses, and some girl has her third birthday on that Rosh Chodesh, she gets her besulim and can lose them with a man, but if later those witnesses were proven Zomemim, and we realize she was never three to begin with, nature follows the Torah and her Besulim grow back. This process is obviously not scientific but miraculous, and with no Kidush Hachodesh until Moshiach comes, its going to be difficult for the scientists to observe the process.
Regarding the Rambam, Reb Yaakov Kaminetzky said that the Rambam’s Hilchos Deos were not intended to be Torah, but rather the Rambam’s secular wisdom. He said, by way of proof, that the Rambam there says the moon is a sentient entity, and now we “see” on TV that it is only a rock.
Rav Schneur Kotler ZTL said that this statement of Reb Yaakov “may not be said”, and that he remembers that Rav Meir Simcha of Dvinsk ZTL once said that there are people who hold like this regarding the Rambam, and they are totally wrong, and he (Rav Meir Simchah) would really write a sefer showing that every word of the Rambams Hilchos Deos is culled from Chazal, but the Malbim already wrote such a Sefer so he doesnt need to. Rav Schneur continued, that nobody knew what Rav Meir Simcha was referring to by the Sefer of the Malbim until a few years ago (like 30 years ago from today) they reprinted a Kuntres from the Malbim showing that the Rambam’s Hilchos Deos was all from Chazal.
Rabbi Menachem Kasher (author of Torah Sheleimah) wrote a Sefer called “HaAdam al Hayareach”, where he devotes all of chapter 4 to this Rambam. He, too, quotes from the Zohar in a different place to support the Rambam: “Does then the ground so sentient? Yes, as it says (Mishle 3:19) ‘Hashem with wisdom founded the land'” Meaning, He created a land that possesses wisdom. He also quotes more. Rav Chaim Kanievsky also quotes sources throughout Hilchos Deos showing where in Chazal they come from.
About the Rambam and the Zohar, it is true, though not everyone concurs; the consensus is that the Rambam did not have the Zohar. Nevertheless, there are statements in the Rambam that have no source other than the Zohar (such as “Whoever gets angry is as if he worshipped idols”). The explanations given for this is that the Rambam had Medrashim that we no longer have, plus the Rambam was able to be “mechaven” to Kabbalah even though he did not have the sources.
(reposted from elsewhere)
Joseph, among the statements of the Rambam in Hilchos Deos are relative sizes of the sun, moon, and earth. They are off by quite a bit from modern accepted figures. Are you going to tell me that the modern astronomers don’t know these sizes? We have a GPS system which is based on the exact positions of satellites. I have reason to believe that scientists know something about orbits. They have also sent man to the moon and back. The Rambam also says the planets are set in hard spheres, and there is no space between these spheres. Why haven’t our rockets crashed into any of them? The gadlus of the Rambam was that he would be the first to say to use the science of our times.
As far as gemara in Pesachim where Chazal were modeh that the non-Jewish astronomers were right, why in the world should I accept a dochak pshat from the sefer that you quote. What is the hechrech to interpret the gemara any differently than it says in black and white. Note, Rebbe Akiva Eger in the gilyon hashas tries to say Chazal were really right, just did not have a ready answer in that debate, as you try to say, but do you then accept his pshat of bokea chalonei rakia that there is a big window in the sky that opens during the day and closes at night to block the sun?
Second you keep quoting Rabbonim who validate the scientific knowledge of other Rabbonim from various eras. But that is called preaching to the choir. Can you provide a single instance of a Gadol from any era who was mechadesh a scientific principle which was previously unknown to the world, and is accepted as correct today. I.e., Archimedes lived at the time of Chazal, I believe. He has a principle that is still in physics books today that submerged objects displace their volume of fluid, and floating objects displace their weight.
Also Pythagoras’s theorem is still used today. While Chazal mention it only for the square case (1:1:1.4 or 4:4:5.6, etc.), it holds for rectangles, too. Please find me a single scientific chidush from a Gadol of any era which demonstrates that they were ahead of the other scientists of their time by virtue of their Torah knowledge and which stands the test of time so that it is correct even today.
If you want to believe that Chazal and the gedolim of today know modern science, you may believe it. However, don’t expect many of us to believe something which can easily be demonstrated, but has not been. (And which of the 13 articles of faith does it violate, anyway?) Note, the Rambam writes that we are not even required to believe a Navi until he proves himself by means of osos and mofsim. I also recall reading that at least one sefer says one is never obligated to believe something that goes against his physical senses. If you can’t show me a single gadol today that could pass a grad school exam in science, then why should I believe it was different 100 or 300 or 1500 years ago. (Note they could certainly pass if they went to grad school and studied the material, but we are talking about getting it from the Torah alone.)
Finally, Rashi in many places does mathematical calculations. He very often, despite his derech of always writing as short as possible, will go to great lengths to do a multiplication. Don’t have a ready example, but he will say something like 258.25 times 5 is such and such, keitzad, and then multiply the 200 by 5, and the 50 by 5, and the 8 by 5, and then the fractional part by five, grouping fractional part into whole numbers and remainder,and then add everything up taking many lines to illustrate the correct answer. But this is basically 5th grade math. It took a very long time to set up the problem in those days. They didn’t have the quick mathematical symbols and language we have today. If Rashi lived today, would he spend a whole paragraph doing a simple multiplication? I am chas veshalom not saying anything bad against Rashi. I am just saying that he used the tools available in his times.
The gadlus of Torah is menschlachkeit and midos. It was not given to be a science book.
More in future posts, IYH.
I’ll be very B’kitzur, cuz this will get outta hand if i’m not.
This is to refute what some have said before which is “shtusim!”
Pashuteh Yid said: “The gadlus of Torah is menschlachkeit and midos.
It was not given to be a science book.”
True, however, I cant say this any clearer, The Torah holds all the information
as to what is going on in this planet as well as what goes on in the skies & above.
Those of you who think otherwise are totally mistaken & have bought into western/
greek/ideology, “Koychi V’oitzem Yodi” etc.. in intellectual terms as well.
The Scientists today didnt even touch the tip of the iceberg yet, they are full
of theories, hypothesis, educated guesses, & we accept all their “shtusim” as fact,
until they find out that they made a mistake,(like recently with the planets)
& then they publicly state their new finds replacing thir old fact/theory, this is the constant cycle. they mean well, but they are Am Haaratzim playing guessing games.
Dealing with a universe so vast, their intelligence so limited, their lifes so short, how can they possibly figure out the complexities that are astoundingly larger then
their mere pathetic finite lives.
Histakel B’oiraisah Ubarah Alma, HB”H looked into the Torah & created the world.
I put my faith in the infinite one that created this wonderful magestic universe,
& put first his scholars & who took their knowledge from his torah, about his
wonderful world. (so much 4 being m’katzer!)
A600KiloBear,
in response to your posts, yes, the expense of research is quite high, a a great deal is paid for by the taxpayer. The vast majority of this is biomedical research, as funded by the NIH. The studies funded are the basis of hope for cures and treatments. They are the reason that many types of cancer are not immediate death sentences any more. Most of us know someone who has had cancer and is still alive 5 years later.
As you posted, “there are drones sitting in koilel”. True, there are mediocre people everywhere, and every system can stand self-examination and improvement–the Yeshiva and University worlds are no exceptions. However, we would not judge the Yeshiva world by the mediocre talmidim within, nor by the ones just marking time Nor should we judge the scientific world by the nonproductive people working there. Without the Yeshiva world, what happens to Torah? Without the University system, what happens to science–and thus medicine? Despite the fact that neither world is perfect, they are both necessary for our way of life.
Regarding the relative contributions to biomedical advancement by the university communities versus the pharmaceutical companies–if you were referring to the same source that I was–sure, she has a political agenda. However, the numbers that she cites are correct. Far more major advances in biomedical science take place in the university system–precisely because of the funding system and the fact that in the university sector, we are well aware that science is a long process, and it can take a long time. We have the advantage of recognizing the value of research and knowledge for its own sake. This can often lead to very significant biomedical advances. Who could have thought that a jellyfish protein could lead to cancer treatments, or Alzheimer’s Disease early diagnostics and potential treatments?
A600KiloBear, you claim that starwolf’s source is biased. What is your source for the assertion that most medical advances are funded by industry? And which industries are funding these advances?
It is likely true that research for many new drug therapies is funded privately. But the basic science that is behind most medical advances is funded publicly by the NIH. Consider the past 20 or so Nobel Laureates in medicine & physiology: most of their research was not funded by industry.
Pashuteh Yid:
You asked for an example where Chazal’s knowledge was ahead of the scientific knowledge of the time. How about the length of a lunar month? Unfortunately, almost all my possessions are in storage right now, so I can’t look up the exact figures, but if you look at the amount of time Chazal say it takes for the moon to renew itself, it is 29.????? days. If you look at the historical data from scientists, you will see that as their tools and knowledge progressed, they have come closer and closer to Chazal’s number.
I find the above post by bein_hasdorim interesting in that he seems to misunderstand the view that scientists have of science. We recognize that our conclusions are not timeless.; they are based on observation and therefore, can be only as accurate as the instruments that we use. When we discover new methods of measurement or improve the accuracy of our measurements, we can see things that we previously could not, and we thus change our conclusions. This is why science itself continually evolves. The important thing about the science is the data, not the theory. the theory has to fit the data, not the other way around. And we all understand that we do not have the complete story in any scientific discipline.
Those of us who are religious scientists do recognize the difference between scientific knowledge and Torah knowledge. We argue that there is no contradiction between them, not that there is no difference in the type of information involved.
bein_hasdorim wrote: “Dealing with a universe so vast, their intelligence so limited, their lifes so short, how can they possibly figure out the complexities that are astoundingly larger then
their mere pathetic finite lives.””
We understand this about the universe. However, one could also say the same about Torah. How could our limited intelligence understand a Torah so vast, with our short lifetimes–how could we figure out the complexities of Torah that are astoundingly larger than our mere pathetic lives?”
There–now does anyone disagree with that? Yet nobody would say that we should not study Torah. Just because we cannot finish the task does not excuse us from the work. And the same applies to science.
Scientists are not naive about science, nor are we “Am Haaratzim playing guessing games”, as bein_hasdorim would know if he knew exactly what is involved in science. If I may pose a question to him, do you use the words “Am Haaratz” and “shtuss” when you refer to medical advances made by scientists within your brief lifetime? Ones that might save the lives of you or one of your family members? Yes, everything was created by HKB”H–but keep in mind that He chose to reveal it through scientists using the scientific method, which you refer to as “shtuss”.
i am curious as to the degree of formal (or even informal) scientific education possessed by those on this board who relate to contemporary science/math with terms like “shtusim”, “nonsense”, “sheker”, “kefira”, (or even just “boring”), etc.. i’m expecting to hear either that 1. these various posters actually have studied science on a graduate level (or perhaps even hold Ph.D.’s), or 2. science is such “shtus” that any 10 year old in yeshiva can tell you its a waste of time.
i suspect that those who are arguing most loudly that science is “shtus” and we can learn all of science exclusively from torah have actually had a very limited exposure to science/the study of science. in all likelihood this may be something they are proud of. but we should also consider how much value can be ascribed to the opinion of someone who may admittedly be completely ignorant on the subject he is addressing.
of course, i would be very happy to be proven wrong. so – to those who relate to contemporary science/math as “sheker”, “shtus”, etc. (you know who you are): please indicate the level of your formal scientific education, and/or whether you have studied (hard) science on a graduate level.
PY:
See my earlier post on this thread regarding Rashbam & Tosfos, the diagonal of a rectangle (Pythagoran theorem), and P’shat in the Gemorah in Bava Basra 102a.
zalmy
no one here is obligated to inform you of their educational background
i, myself have given my background on previous posts.
science is not shtus.
scientism, the modern avodah zorah, the blind faith worship of scientists and their pronouncements is far worse than “shtus”
Actually the length of the Molad is off by about 6/10 of a second. And while that number is pretty good that error does add up. The time that the new moon should be seen in Jerusalem according to the molad now is closer to when it would be seen in Kabul.
The truth is that the Babylonians had very good numbers on the lunar cycle 2300 years ago, as did the Greeks (who got them from the Babylonians).
I actually recorded a podcast about the Hebrew calendar with my Rabbi for 365 days of Astronomy, it should air at some point in the next few months I hope.
For the record I have a BA in physics (including astronomy)
Joseph,
The Rambam states that the moon is one fourtieth the size of earth we now know it is about one fourth the size of the earth.
Rambam states that there is no star bigger then the sun we now know that there are.
Rambam (yisodei hatorah 3:4) states that the sun is located in the sphere between mercury and mars wich would mean that there should be no planets between mercury and mars except for the sun. We now know that this is simply not true (we live on a planet between mercury and mars and we arn’t on the sun!).
The Babylonians, the Greeks, and the Central American Indians all had extremely advanced calculations relating to the lunar cycle. None of them had gotten this information from the Torah. Conversely, the Rambam states that the numbers used by Chazal are very slightly imprecise, yet, it isn’t due to their lack of the correct values, but in order to enable easier calculations. It is an error, he says, that does not change the date of the Molad when used with witnesses.
Our calendar sanctified by Hillel Sheni, though, IS problematic, since it is Julian and not Gregorian. Anyone opening a siddur to “tal umotor” will see that in every century those words are added a day later. Pesach DOES occur later than T’fufas Nissan by now, and Succos crosses into cold wintry weather, due to the accumulation of 2 weeks’ error since the time of Hillel. It has been proposed that, while knowing that this would be the fact, Hillel chose to use an existant callendar to facilitate the coming generations in having a working system, rather than to have the Jews using their own solar callendar in addition to lunar one. It has also been suggested that nobody envisioned the actual length of the golus before being mekadesh al pi eidim will resume, and, therefore, having few days artificially added would do no harm, as the tekufos would still be preserved. While nobody today can know with certainty Hillel’s reasoning, it is a solid fact that our traditional callendar, as practiced, is way off, but until the 15th century neither the Jewish sources, nor the Roman/European scientific ones ever mentioned being aware of this discrepancy.
Instead of today’s style of bashing the scientific advances as “done by goyim, whose only aim is to disprove the Torah”, which in itself is an imbecilic claim, Chazal embraced knowledge, and used it. They were so sure of the absolute truth of the Divine laws, that they never feared that a new discovery would shake the foundations of their faith. Today people are afraid, but instead of fearing their own ignorance they place the blame on those doing the research, as having sinister motives. Please, which astronomer examining the evidence for Black Holes, or which geneticist finding the molecular code for Tay Sachs did so in order to destroy the Biblical value system or to prove Rabbi so-and-so wrong?
The same benighted fools who yell “shtusim” and “kefira” from these pages run to the doctor for antibiotics, get their X Rays and MRI’s, fly on airplanes, and yes, listen to radio, all invented or discovered by those useless scientists who are drones, duds, and convince others of veracity of their research only to obtain more funding.
Who are the hypocritical fools after that?
the diameter of the moon is one fourth of the earth
however its volume is about one fiftieth of the earth
our knowledge of the size of stars is of course indirect and based on numerous unproven assumptions of the methodology of measurement, and of course old assumptions are often replaced by newer ones (the old ones are usually laughed at). if one has faith in our indirect “measurement” of something trillions and trillions and trillions of miles away, your argument is weak to anyone who is nor enamored by Scientism.
your third point seems valid at this point
646
Why bother? Chazal accepted the Ptolemaic system of astronomy, with all the rigid spheres, fixed orbits, “windows”, “curtains” and suchlike heavenly debris that was used by the Greeks. This went unchallenged until after the Middle Ages, neither by the scientific world, nor by the Jewish one.
While nobody knows the true meaning of the “Rakia”, it certainly isn’t a crystal ceiling in the sky, as despribed in our own sefarim. To pound one’s fist that Chazal’s scientific interpretation of T’NaCH was impeccably accurate despite concrete and obvious evidence to the contrary will only serve to devalue the Torah itself as having been written by men, and not given from Above. After all, how could one claim that it is the ultimate truth, if it verily contradicts the basic facts of life. It makes infinitely more sense to maintain that Hashem’s Torah IS perfect, but that humans, even Divinely inspired ones, explained the scientific parts thereof according to what they understood to the best of their ability. Just as a Navi in his visions saw what he could relate to, and used the terminology that he was used to, Chazal employed the latest knowledge obtainable in their time to explain the Torah.
Gavra @ Work:
The Rambam you quoted is referring to a Beis Din situation; the question asked here was regarding a kashrus shaila to a posek. If you “witnessed” the kitchen staff in your yeshiva bringing in tarfus, and asked (say) the Rema a shaila (as he was the Rov of the town), and the heilige Rema paskened unquestionably that it is kosher — and furthermore the Rema ordered you to eat it (perhaps so the other talmidim don’t refuse to eat it based on your eidus), what would you do? [Remember the Rema is issuing a psak. This was the question posed on this thread.]
It would seem to be similar to the Gemorah in Rosh Hashana 25a where Rabban Gamlier forced Rabbi Yehoshua to walk to him with his wallet and stick, on the day he calculated to be Yom Kippur.
one hundred years ago to suggest that the speed of an object going exactly 30 miles an hour in relation to another object going exactly 30 miles an hour in the opposite direction is less than 60 miles an hour, would have been infinitely laughable, against laws proven as steel (more than concrete), and completely and irrefutably self evident.
the best scientists of that time would easily accepted a bet of their lives against a dollar, as to the absolute falsity of such a statement of lunacy. then of course came einstein.
typical of the history of deep theory in science
remember when there was NO QUESTION, NONE, AT ALL, that the universe revolved around the earth. SELF EVIDENT!
of course today people like you and me are above making such mistakes.
but try to think beyond your little point in time. try to expand your perspective, try not to worship science, think a little more broadly.
Thank you everyone for sharing your opinions. I think we can close this thread now.
After receiving several requests to have this thread reopened, we’ve decided to open it up for discussion again.
Enjoy.
“However, he also is fully aware of the limitations of science. In particular, he is aware of the great number of issues which are not proven fact but are primarily hypotheses and guesses. Many of these theories are very doubtful speculations upon which other speculations are built daily. That which today is praised and glorified as if it were the absolute truth is questioned tomorrow and then rejected. It is uncertain that which can be fully accepted. At the same time, there are things in the books of the previous generations which for 50 or 100 years have been viewed as ridiculous and false by the scholars. Then someone decides that in fact there is some truth in these views. There is also profound knowledge of the ancients which has been lost that we still lack.”
I thought this dvar torah was prudent, at least for Ames original question. It was taken from yutorah.org:
Shamayim and Eretz are obviously not equipped to serve as witnesses; what did Moshe intend by invoking them as such?
Again, Heaven and Earth are again likened to organic, thinking beings. How can Shamayim and Eretz, which are lifeless and have no desires, serve as examples and provide standards for living humans, who have brains, freedom, passions and inclinations?
From the article “Scientific theory”:
Description and prediction
Echoing the philosopher Karl Popper, Stephen Hawking in A Brief History of Time states, “A theory is a good theory if it satisfies two requirements: It must accurately describe a large class of observations on the basis of a model that contains only a few arbitrary elements, and it must make definite predictions about the results of future observations.” He goes on to state, “Any physical theory is always provisional, in the sense that it is only a hypothesis; you can never prove it. No matter how many times the results of experiments agree with some theory, you can never be sure that the next time the result will not contradict the theory. On the other hand, you can disprove a theory by finding even a single observation that disagrees with the predictions of the theory.” The “unprovable but falsifiable” nature of theories is a consequence of the necessity of using inductive logic.
Assumptions to formulate a theory
…something accepted without proof, and it is incorrect to speak of an assumption as either true or false, since there is no way of proving it to be either (If there were, it would no longer be an assumption). It is better to consider assumptions as either useful or useless, depending on whether deductions made from them corresponded to reality. … On the other hand, it seems obvious that assumptions are the weak points in any argument, as they have to be accepted on faith in a philosophy of science that prides itself on its rationalism. Since we must start somewhere, we must have assumptions, but at least let us have as few assumptions as possible.
Example: Special Theory of Relativity
sammygol, well said. I agree with you 1000%.
starwolf: I do not “misunderstand the view that scientist have of science”.
Thank you though for so eloquently attempting to represent scientists and science
as a whole. I cannot & do not speak for all scientists, however, I make a distinction between science & those who study it. (notice I didn’t comment about studying science)
starwolf said; “The important thing about the science is the data, not the theory.
the theory has to fit the data, not the other way around”
Lets Talk about “The Big Bang Theory.” What conclusive data do they have
to fit that theory?
Next Lets Talk about doctors, I didnt bring up doctors. They are shluchim of HB”H
(at least most of them) & even though they have a long way to go, at least they have pure evidence to observe, study, & learn from. They are able to examine & explore
human bodies, test animals etc.. & figure out as best as they can what is going on.
zalmy: read what feivel wrote.
My degrees? Come into my office and you’ll see them on the wall.
feivel: thanks for getting my point, as some have obviously missed.
Maybe I wasn’t clear enough, or perhaps some scientists pickup
only on what their data tells them minus the common sense.
in mathematical form:
Data
– Common Sense
________________
Shtusim
G’mar Chasima Toiva!
The word “theory is often misused when referring to the scientific sense of the term.
All kinds of knowledge are based on assumptions, including Torah knowledge.
A scientific theory is never proven. It is an explanation that accounts for the facts observed. A theory may be disproven, when scientific observations demonstrate that it cannot be. In general, theories are modified as more scientific information is acquired. No scientific theory is expected to be final, as we will always be increasing our levels of accuracy of measurement, as well as designing new methods of measurement. When measured observations contradict a theory, it is the theory that must be modified to fit the observations, not vice-versa.
Of course, conflicting theories about a given topic may exist. The conflict can remain until a set of experiments can be devised that disproves one or the other. Other than that, usually the one that has the preponderance of evidence supporting it will prevail.
I am not sure why Joseph is posting EDITED about scientific theory. Is he trying to show that scientific knowledge is acquired in a different manner than is Torah knowledge? We all know that.
b_h: “My degrees? Come into my office and you’ll see them on the wall.”
well said!! I’m hoping the rest of this crowd got it…
A scientific theory….. is an explanation that accounts for the facts observed.
you have to understand, however, that a basic principle of science is that: “just because: if a particular explanation were true, then that would explain the observed facts, does NOT make the theory true or even likely.”
for example:
my car didnt start today
well if it were the case that an escaped monkey poured some sugar in my gastank that WOULD explain why my car didnt start. but it is not a proof of my monkey theory.
Feivel wrote: “A scientific theory….. is an explanation that accounts for the facts observed.
you have to understand, however, that a basic principle of science is that: “just because: if a particular explanation were true, then that would explain the observed facts, does NOT make the theory true or even likely.”
for example:
my car didnt start today
well if it were the case that an escaped monkey poured some sugar in my gastank that WOULD explain why my car didnt start. but it is not a proof of my monkey theory.”
While I believe that this statement is technically correct, I think it gives only a partial picture of how science works. Once the monkey poured sugar in my gas tank theory is formulated, a scientist would set about to test it. And while tests will never be conclusive, the will make something more likely. If you formulate the theory that your engine is not starting because a monkey poured sugar in your gas tank, the next step to test this theory would be to leave your monkey, uncaged, with an open box of sugar in your garage for a certain amount of days, and also leave your car in the garage without the monkey and sugar for a certain number of days as a control. If everytime you left the monkey and sugar with the car, it failed to start, that would make it more likely, although not conclusive that the monkey theory is correct, particularly if on the days in the control group, the car started.
You’re making it sound as if scientists just make up the most ridiculous thing they can find to explain an observable phenomenon, and that’s not the case. Before a theory is accepted as a good (but by nature, not definitive) theory, it is subject to rigorous testing.
If Chazal truly had a perfect, Torah-derived knowledge of sciences, let us examine some medical matters.
Starting with Rabbon Yochanan Ben Zakai, who requested a Roman physician, no less, to treat Rabbi Tzadok, instead of doing it himself? Why had those Amoroim who practiced medicine limit themselves to “complex” bloodletting, instead of using the exact treatment alluded to in the Torah? They MUST have known about bacterial and viral causes of disease, and which molds to use against the former! Why had Rambam relied on Galen and Avicenna, whom he quoted all the time, when they were both right AND wrong, rather that relying on strict Torah knowledge? How come the Gemara prohibits a Jew from dwelling in a city that lacks a physician? Shouldn’t a Rav, especially of the Tannaic or Amoraic caliber suffice?
How come Roshey Yeshiva, Rebbes, Rabbanim of yesteryear traveled to Berlin, Vienna, and Zurich for treatments and surgeries, and paid huge sums to have some uncircumcised “professor” examine them and prescribe a useless potion? Why have the poskim personally inquired of gentile physicians regarding surgeries and other methods of treatment before issuing a p’sak regarding its permissibility?
Someone brought Rabbi Firer into this thread. Well, why does he consult medical books and doctors rather than the immensely great Talmidei Chachomim in B’nei Brak? Why did Rav Moshe, and now Rav Elyashiv have a trained physician that can be consulted on medical matters? Have they lost their ability to derive the proper cures from the Torah, or was the mesorah lost. If the former, when did that happen, and if the latter, if we are to trust their mesorah in halacha, why was this particular, and IMPORTANT part of it forgotten or left untransmitted?
Lastly, when it comes to their OWN health, they prefer using top notch medical facilities and obtain access to the very best specialists, instead of asking their chavrusos to cure them. WHY????
Hishtadlus perhaps? The pasuk: the healer shall heal, perhaps?
Do you know the answer to your own questions as you imply you do?
Have you heard them say why they do?
You’re making it sound as if scientists just make up the most ridiculous thing they can find to explain an observable phenomenon, and that’s not the case.
actually thats the classic scenario given to illustrate that principle in various texts and lectures on the philosophy of science, or metascience. i didnt make it up
Hishtadlus? Of course. However, if, as some claim, they truly KNOW all the medical matters contained within Torah, why won’t using those PERFECT and ABSOLUTE cures suffice as hishtadlus? And yes, I have heard them explain why they use every available medical treatment. It is because of “chochma bagoyim – ta’amin” and, while knowing that every last scientific fact is, indeed, contained in the Torah, they freely acknowledge that it is not known to them.
When a new discovery or law of nature is established, looking into the p’sukim can show that it was clearly alluded to. Yet, that doesn’t mean that it was known to be such, or derived by the chachomim from the Torah itself. Just as not every secret of Ma’aseh Bereishis or Merkava was understood by each great scholar, even though they studied it assiduously day and night, scientific matters, which did not concern them, were even more elusive to derivation. This in now way detracts from their true Gadlus in Torah matters. It DOES point to their honesty and search for truth, employing knowledge obtained from every source and person.
When Rabbi Yishmoel allowed human dissection to count the bones in human body, he didn’t rely on Sh’sa and R’mach of the mesorah, for what would have been the permissibility of nivul hames? To prove the Torah right to Tannaim, of all people? This is also the reason for permissibility of an autospy to cure another suffering of the same disease. Why dissect a body, when one can dissect a posuk?
Yes, Torah training and Sayata Dishmaya allows our Gedolim to understand some of the most complex scientific and medical matters, WHEN they specifically apply themselves to that end. I have witnessed the speed with which Gedolei Yisroel plumbed to the depth of complex Genetics issues or comprehended most arcane formulae of Quantum Mechanics. However, all that was AFTER they were instructed in these matters by professionals, or read the books that deal with such. They had the humility to ask a much younger person, sometimes totally unlearned in the basics of Judaism, to explain to them how things function, how matter is constructed, and how the world turns. Sometimes these discussions were followed by “Oy, THIS must be what the posuk in Yechezkel means with one extra letter!! Amazing! See how everything is included in the Torah!” At other times they sat in silent awe of the Creation and of the Ribono Shel Olam, who allowed human minds to unveil His wondrous secrets. I recall being in the presence of a Gadol Hador who sat in stunned silence, with sparkling eyes, after hearing of the latest discoveries made through the Hubble telescope. Finally he spoke, and the only words that came out were “Moyradik!! Dos is takke moyradik!! Ver ken fershteyn Der Boirei Oilam!!” Had he known these facts previously from his Gemara studies, why would he be so incredulous after wasting some two hours listening to what the goyim just found out?
There is a reason why Chazal instituted a b’racha to be said on a scholar of science, yes, a non-Jewish one.
Rabbosai, there is much to say, but short of time. However, GavraAtWork alerted me to an earlier post of his which I had missed that is a watershed event. You all need to go back and read his post on Bava Basra 102, and the accompanying Rashbam and Tosfos. Look them up directly. It is clear that both of these Rishonim made a clear mathematical error. They did not know how to properly calculate the diagonal of a 4×6 rectangle. This, despite the fact that Pythagoras showed how to do it a thousand or so years before. They were unaware. Not only does it seem from there that Chazal were not ahead of their times, but were in fact behind their times. I was stunned when I saw it.
All of those arguing that Chazal knew all science need to give an answer here. Since this was math, and math is the underpinning and language of science, if one does not know basic math, there is no way to understand modern science.
The answers which are usually given such as nishtanah hateva cannot be used here. Has the diagonal of a rectangle changed in the last few thousand years? The other answers that have been used here that scientists change their minds, but that eventually we will discover that Chazal were right all along since they have absolute truth also does not seem to be possible here. Will mathematicians ever discover that the Pythagorean theorem was wrong? Very unlikely. A mathematical proof must be iron-clad, and there are many, many proofs of this theorem, of which even a single one is strong enough to guarantee its truth for all posterity. Furthermore, all you need to do is to go measure the rectangle with a ruler or string and see for yourself that Pythagoras was right.
It is absolutely clear from here that the claim that Chazal knew all about science is completely false. This will require a sea-change in hashkafa. If I had seen Gavra’s post earlier, I would not have used the examples I used about the size and trajectory of the sun and planets or the supposed heavenly spheres to make this point. Gavra’s proof is a million times stronger.
Again, you all need to drop everything and cease all posting until you read Gavra’s earlier post and then come back and discuss. It is pointless to continue until then, although there is plenty more to say.
That’s very clever.
Please don’t submit it a third time. You know why it was deleted.
Actually I don’t. Care to explain?
Yes, we try not to allow posts that insult other posters.
Pashuteh Yid
….It is clear that both of these Rishonim made a clear mathematical error. They did not know how to properly calculate the diagonal of a 4×6 rectangle. This, despite the fact that Pythagoras showed how to do it a thousand or so years before. They were unaware. Not only does it seem from there that Chazal were not ahead of their times, but were in fact behind their times. I was stunned when I saw it……..
BUT THEN YOU SAY….
….Furthermore, all you need to do is to go measure the rectangle with a ruler or string and see for yourself……
An oiber chochom. So according to your understanding, Chazal were not only behind their time, they were also too stupid CH”V to do what any 2nd grader can do, i.e. take a string and measure? Klop al chait again. If you have a hard time imagining that Chazal knew more about physics than we do now, I can understand your position. But do you really think CH”V that Chazal couldn’t even measure something properly?
Now, if they CAN measure properly, why did they make that mistake? So you have a question. Fun a kashe shtarb men nischt. Uber men ken leben mit a teretz, right? 😉
This Gemara may have been news to a poshute Yid, but it’s not to me. Nor to any mathematically inclined individual who has studied Gemara. In fact, there are many Gemaros that are “famous” to the mathematically inclined. I can name you a few other places where the Gemara and the Rishonim discuss mathematical ideas and are quite imprecise (to be polite). One example is Succah daf 8a where they discuss the relationship between the circumference and the area of a circle (pool of Shlomo Hamelech). The quantity they seek is Pi, but their approximations are not even close to those that the Greeks produced thousands of years earlier! Behind the times? No, it’s not that at all. Slow down and think.
This is how I would explain it: In my understanding, there has to be a purpose to mathematical precision. In the case of these Gemaros, there is no purpose to precision – it would only serve to confuse those who could not understand such an esoteric concept. You are right that nowadays general education is far better than it was, and that now there are more lay people who appreciate precision. But when we are discussing matters of halacha, most of which have to be implemented by the average Poshite Yid, who may not (or most likely not, I should say) be able to perform accurate mathematical calculations – requiring precision would cause errors in halacha. Therefore, in these matters of Halacha Chazal intentionally used approximations.
Don’t believe me? Well, a few months ago I posted about Bircas Hachama. This is an event that occurs once in 28 years. But does it really occur that often? No. It is only due to an approximation that Chazal used to calculate the event. What about the equinox and solstice? Do you know when we start saying V’sain Tal U’matar in CH”L? It is 60 days after the fall equinox. Is it really? No. It is really on December 4th or 5th. Why? Because we don’t use the REAL equinox in the calculation – as that would cause confusion. Rather, we use an approximate equinox so that the time is fixed. Most of the time the approximation is far off, but if the halacha was set with precision, once again the Poshite Yid would err and start counting 60 days at the wrong time.
So does that mean that Chazal could not perform accurate calculations? CH”V! Of course they could – and did. In fact, when it comes to matters of halacha that are implemented only by Beis Din the calculations are extremely precise. One example is the Molad. We have been calculating the exact Molad for Rosh Chodesh for ages. It’s on our calendars, so we don’t need to calculate it ourselves.
There are many examples, but I know if my post gets too long you will just skim and I think you need to read everything I wrote. ‘Watershed event’ indeed. Please don’t be so quick to jump to conclusions, especially when you are CH”V “judging” Chazal.
G’mar Chasima Tova.
Squeak,
You are correct in your explanation. Tosafos themselves, regarding Pi, say that 1/3 of circumference is imprecise, but, since the whole din of koreh is midivreihem, they did not wish to encumber people with exact measurements, and, if one measures a beam to be 3 t’fachim around, he can assume, as far as the halacha is concerned, to satisfy the requirement of a tefach’s thickness.
The Rishonim, furthermore, explain that the various shiurim for Deoraysa mitzvos were also given in imprecise-by-definition measurements of kezais, amah, etc, to enable every Jew no matter where to observe these Mitzvos. Not only aren’t all olives equal, but those of one land will differ from the ones in another, yet, consuming a local olive’s size measure of Matza will satisfy the halacha, and eating the same shiur of chelev will make one chayav chatos.
One should not confuse Chazal’s deliberate imprecision in regard to measurements needed for daily observance with lack of knowledge in natural sciences.
Squeak, I read your whole post, but you know that deliberately approximating the molad and the value of pi or the square root of 2 to simplify calculations, which I completely accept, does not seem to be comparable to what the Rishonim were discussing in Bava Basra. Tosfos seems to say that the diagonal of a 4×6 rectangle is less than that of a 5×5. If he wanted to approximate, why not agree with the Rashbam who, one could for arguments sake, say that he chose a 5×5 as an approximation to a 4×6, since it is a nice round number.
But Tosfos argues and says that the Rashbam is wrong, and that the diagonal of a 4×6 is actually less than a 5×5, since a 5×5 has 25 [square] amos, while a 4×6 has 24 [square] amos. But, in reality, the 4×6 has a longer diagonal. So while you could in theory defend the Rashbam with your approach (gemara sometimes says lo dak), however, when Tosfos comes to differ and complain that the Rashbam’s value is not exact enough, and instead gives a different value which it turns out is even more inexact and in the wrong direction, then there is a problem. In addition, we both know that using the area of a rectangle is not a good way of gauging the diagonal, since for example a 1×12 rectangle would have a diagonal more than twice that of a 5×5, even though its area is less than half.
I will recheck, but I’m pretty sure I remember that the “less than” is a printing error and he is actually saying “more than”.
Haifagirl, you are correct, and therfore those that deny students the finer details of math and geometry, (beyond 5th grade level) deny them the opportunity of understanding of Hilchos Kiddush haChodesh.
We understood your point to the moderators, and I hope you understood ours. 26
Pashuteh Yid, I retract what I said in my last post about a “printer error” and I apologize for it. It is most definitely not a printer error, and I was wrong to brush off your question in that way. Over Shabbos, I reviewed the Gemara and only then did I remember how to resolve this question.
The Gemara gives an approximation for measuring the diagonal of a perfect square as being 1.4 times the side. This is an acceptable approximation for the true measurement, which is 2^.5, and in fact this approximation for root 2 is used often by college students (as is 1.7 for root 3).
The issue at hand though, is not a perfect square but a rectangle, and the calculation of the diagonal cannot be defined by a single simple multiplicative rule (rather, one would need the Pythagorian Theorem, which is above the understanding of many, esp. in the dark ages). The Gemara requires that 8 amos be checked, and this is rounding up from the true measurement of approximately 7.2. In this way, the Gemara uses the rule of 1.2 times the longest side (or as the Rashbam put it, an equivalent length to the diagonal of a 5×5) and then some. It is using the approximation l’chumra.
Now the problem seems to be with Tosaphos, who says at the very end that a 5×5 must have a diagonal at least as great as a 4×6, because the area is greater. We know that this is fallacious mathematically. However, this sugya has nothing at all to do with teaching mathematics, and everything to do with ensuring that the property in question does not contain any carcasses. Therefore, what we are really concerned with is not drawing a diagonal across the chamber – but with checking a specific portion of the chamber to ensure that it is free of bodies. That is the reason why Tosaphos says that the chamber with the greater area (5×5) should have the greater checking requirement. He is saying that the Halacha should be that the 4×6 chamber can be ruled Tahor with less checking than the 5×5, because there is less area to check. Not that the true diagonal is shorter.
Ritva says this openly – he says that the diagonal that the Gemara speaks of is not straight but rather zigs and zags so as to make a complete 8 amos. In this way he resolves the 20 amos that are required to be checked as 6+8+6.
First, SJsinNYC, a big Mazel Tov on the baby. May you have much nachas.
Second, Squeak, After having a chance to look at the gemara in more detail on Shabbos, I will take back my post, but for a different reason. It is clear the language of the Rashbam and Tosfos is completely megumgam, so I don’t know if we even have the correct text of either. (Note, in general, to change a girsa is very difficult to say, and borders on heresy, but for the honor of the rishonim, I think it can be done here. The Rashbam at first mentions that the 5×5 has a diagonal of 8, which even according to the gemaras well-known approxiimation that sqrt(2) =1.4, is wrong, and should read 7. Then he says that a 6×6 has diagonal 8.4, which seems totally irrelevant to the flow. He then brings in the 5×5 again. Possibly, a printer confused the shnei chumshin of the 8.4 with shnei chamishin (5×5). Maybe the Rashbam was trying to use 6×6 as a rough estimate of 4×6 (not 5×5), and say that it equals about 8, as well. (This would be a pshat in the Rashbam’s chada shiura, 4×6~6×6, they share a common dimension.)Then Tosfos fits very well. He first draws a picture of a 4×4 within a 4×6. He shows that the 4×4 has diag 5.6, and adding the two additional amos to get 4×6, means that at maximum, the diagonal of the 4×6 is 7.6, so how could the Rashbam say 8? Plus, if you use the direct diagonal in his picture, rather than the 2-step diagonal, kol shechain that it is less than even 7.6. Then in the second half of Tosfos one would have to change the girsa as well and say that 6×6=36 which is more square amos than 4×6=24 so for that reason, as well, the 6×6 is greater than the 4×6. So we can possibly defend both, but need to change girsos quite a bit.
However, merely because I initially said Chazal didn’t know how to calculate the diagonal is not an insult to Chazal, it just means they weren’t familiar with Pythagoras’s theorem. It is not an insult to say about current physicists that they don’t know cold fusion. It hasn’t been done yet. Note also, that in my original post I didn’t say Chazal didn’t know how to measure with a string, I said one can verify the Pythag thm with a string. In our case, differentiating the diag of a 4×6 from a 5×5 with string would be very hard, as they are so close, only a few percent apart.
Finally, in my second post above it should say that the 1×12 has diag *almost* twice the 5×5, not *more than*.
Squeak, I still question why in say a very clear Tosfos like in Sukkah 8a where he shows that the 1.4 value is actually less than the true sqrt(2), he doesn’t bring up the Pythag Thm. I am not aware of any mention in classical sefarim of it,, although diagonals are brought up a number of places in shas. I still don’t buy that the Rishonim were aware of it, although, as before, I take back that they made an actual error, since it may be a bad girsa.
Joseph, let me amplify my earlier post to you of “singing to the choir”. Suppose you were running a kiruv seminar and advertised that the Talmudic Rabbis knew modern science. You get a large crowd, and really have their interest piqued. The people are anxious for some proof. They expect some discussion of inventions and some slides showing advanced physics and math. They are all excited. Instead, you say, “Folks you know what the proof is, Rabbi B says that Rabbi A knew science. Rabbi C says we must believe everything Rabbi B said. Rabbi D once referred to Rabbi C as the wonder of the generation who knew everything. Rabbi E says that anybody who doubts Rabbi C is a complete heretic. This concludes my presentation.”
Joseph, have you made a convincing case to these non-religious people? They are not interested in what Rabbis say about other Rabbis. They want you to show them the pudding. You need to come up with specific examples of advanced science, not long lists of quotes.
Interestingly, the Chazon Ish in Emuna uBitachon tries to do that, and shows some sources, like the fact that in Tanach, they removed the spleen of runners to make them go faster. The Egyptians also used to sterilize horses by removing the womb (or maybe cows, don’t remember) to make it harder to breed them so they could keep prices high. Also, a few other examples. He tries to say that earlier generations in general did not try to invent, just to study chochma. However, I am not at all sure I buy this argument.
Finally, let me openly state my negiah here. My point in being skeptical about this principle that the gedolim knew science from Torah, is because it is a convenient excuse for denying a generation any secular knowledge, and telling them they can know everything they need even if they don’t complete more than 7th or 8th grade, as long as they learn. The kids are told that ignorance is a virtue, and are crippled when they enter the job market. Then the rabbonim are only too happy to write them a letter to carry around saying they need support from the klal. I simply don’t believe it. However, if one can find me a single knowledgeable gadol today in science or math who did not study it from secular sources, but only from Torah, I will eat my hat. (I don’t wear a hat, but I will go out and buy one especially to eat. I will serve an entire seudah of hat to many guests.)
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