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Newbee, you responded to the first half of my post, but you seem to be ignoring the second point that I made.
newbee,
But you must also say, “if I had a choice, I’d want to sleep in the warm bed in gan eden and learn Torah from the light of the shechina in olam haba.” So ideally, we all want to live in olam haba- in pure bliss and paradise with no problems.
From what you have written, you seem to see yemos Hamoshiach and olam haba as one in the same. I’m not sure that that is the case. I am certainly no expert in these things (nobody is, since it is all beyond us at this point, but I am really not an expert), but I personally see two different “worlds”:
1. The days of Moshiach, where we still have physical bodies, a Jewish nation, Eretz Yisroel, Torah and mitzvos. We still receive reward for mitzvos, and would be punished for aveiros. However, the world will be as full of knowledge of Hashem as waters fill the sea, and all nations would know and follow Hashem, so the prospect of committing aveiros would seem absolutely crazy to us, unlike now when there is confusion and temptation. Rather than reducing our potential for growth and merit, I see this period as a time of unlimited growth and merit.
2. Olam Haba – where it seems that we do not have physical bodies, and can thus be completely united with Hashem. Without bodies, there are no mitzvos. This seems to be the world that you are addressing.
My question to you: we believe that there will be a techias hameisim. Why would those who have passed on to olam haba want to come back to Earth?
What does your inability to make money have to do with Moshiach coming? Your proof of waiting to earn a spot has nothing to do with work or reward… If you could buy a spot tight away there’s a MUCH bigger feeling since you know there’s people that CAN’T afford it 🙂 That’s what makes it fun… Sorry this is coming from a Hedge Fund Manager
Frankly Newbee the discussion is not concerning your naeivity on any particular subject. However, there is a reason that Companies such as Burberry and Louis Vutton are worth over 15 billion dollars.
I am very well versed in this field of knowledge, in Economics and Finance, and working in a high income industry shows you a lot of examples such as the ones I am trying to explain, But if you get to the core reason of why Bob bought that Rolex its because he’s waving in your face ” I can buy it and you can’t! Look at me”
newbee,
When I lived in a certain city I went 2 years without a parking spot … After 2 years, I was finally able to afford a parking spot right next to my apartment. That “luxury” was needless to say, very, very nice.
Your moshol seems to prove my point – during those two years you were probably wishing every day for a parking spot, because you knew that with a parking spot, you could do your grocery shopping with less hardship. You didn’t secretly wish that you wouldn’t get a parking spot.
If I never would have gone those 2 years without the parking spot, or if I would have moved into a different town where there is parking everywhere, that pleasure of having that specific parking spot would never has been as great.
I think that speaks more to human nature than the way things should be. We don’t truly appreciate what we have unless we don’t have it, and that is unfortunate. I feel that one of the big points of Judaism is to learn to truly appreciate what we have when we have it, and I think this midda will be perfected during yemos Hamoshiach. I think eventually during the days of Moshiach, the “bad” years prior won’t even be remembered at all.
Thats how I view techias hameisim- you cant truly get the reward of fighting and working with the guf without the guf itself.
Hashem did not originally set Adam Harishon up for a fight. He placed him in a garden where all of his needs were cared for, where Hashem could “walk” with him (extreme closeness), and the Tree of Life was right there for the taking. There may not have been a techias meisim, because there didn’t have to be meisim at all! Adam chose to pick a fight, so now we have to fight and deal with death. But that is not our ideal state!
Ahh, Point taken Avram.
However Newbee, there is no need to get disappointed, in certain fields and industries there are people who are more knowledgeable then others. Economics and Finance happen to be my specialty, so it really is fine if I explain my previous statement…
I accept your Apology in Advance Sir,
“Again, this goes against the basic premise- that earning through fight and effort is better than receiving for free.
“
when given the choice of the two, that which you earned is “better” than that which you received for free. But that doesn’t mean that being in a situation where you are sure to commit aveiros is optional.
Personally, I am crying for/waiting for/praying for moshiach because i want my children to stop having to struggle with their yetzer hora. i want them to be close to Hashem, to feel loved by Him and to benefit from the privelege of a spotless neshama. In truth, that is all very selfish, who wants to watch their children struggle? and probably all the wrong reasons for wanting moshiach, but i wouldn’t give it up for any money or possessions.
rats, i meant optimal. >.<
Newbee, a few years ago I asked this exact question to Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb of Yeshivas Ohr Somayach via email.
Me: “Why do we want moshiach? It’s true that we will enjoy a closer relationship with Hashem, and that we’ll be able to feel and see His presence, and that there will be an end to much of the suffering around the world, but what about the effect on our freewill? Won’t it become less of a challenge for everyone to do mitzvos, and thus we won’t really be able to earn the greatest good? It seems like we would be better off if there was no such thing as moshiach, and the world would just continue forever in the state that we’re in of not knowing 100% whether Hashem exists and having to struggle to do the mitzvos.”
Another idea that occurred to me is this: Having a deadline other than death serves as further motivation to live up to our highest potential now, today, and not wait until we get older. Also, Hashem is perfectly fair, so when moshiach does come and you get “short-changed” by missing out on years when you could have been earning, you wont really be short-changed because Hashem knows everything and will reward us according to what we would have done had moshiach not come.
So there are two approaches, hopefully at least one of them is helpful
I’m not going to judge anyone if you don’t want mashiach deep down.
But think about this( rabbi Brazil mentioned something similar to this idea and it’s based on what he said)
Go to petach tikva children hospital. Walk through the halls. Go to the oncology center. Look at the poor, sick, I innocent children suffering.
Look at little boys with tzitzis and head coverings but no Peyos.
Look at beautiful young ladies who are bald.
Look at their parents sitting next to them crying and daveinig.
Go to another hospital and find people with all sorts of debilitating diseases.
How could someone not want mashiach. Illness and pain and suffering will be eradicated.
Lastly, go to Sharei tzeddek’s nursery and imagine that if mashiach came hospitals would be just birthing centers. Full of happy and healthy mommies taking care of healthy children.
Imagine all the oncologists becoming OBGYN because that’s the only open job.
I know that my answer is chayecha kodmin.
But anyhow, I had one last thought which is that I remember hearing a shiur by Rav Avigdor Miller on the topic of moshiach and at the very end someone asks a similar question but I forgot his answer so listen to that if you can get your hands on it
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newbee,
And every day people are wishing for moshiach to come to get rid of THEIR OWN problems so they can experience the bliss of what happens after death without the death process.
So what exactly is wrong with that?
Its human nature, but that does not mean its what Hashem sent us here for in the first place.
I would tend to disagree that it’s human nature in the long term. Humans by nature do not like to be indebted to anyone, so while a salvation might be welcome in the short term, some chafing might develop over the long term without character refinement.
And what do you think Hashem sent us here for? Does he need us? Does he need our mitzvos? Can we really do anything for Him? Not really. In reality, we are here solely because Hashem is giving us everything, so perhaps our purpose is to indeed become perfected receivers.
Ideally, I should have said I hope I don’t get the parking spot if thats what Hashem wants from me now and it will give me the best chance to grow.
That’s not what I would pray.
“Adam chose to pick a fight, so now we have to fight and deal with death. But that is not our ideal state!”
Again, this goes against the basic premise- that earning through fight and effort is better than receiving for free.
Suppose you ask your son to clean his room before dinner, and he suddenly starts smashing things, scattering papers and laundry everywhere, and rips his sheets off his bed. You say, “Why are you doing that?! That’s the opposite of what I asked you to do!”
He says, “So I can earn more reward by cleaning up a bigger mess!”
Does that thinking really make sense to you? Especially if his actions dramatically increase the chances that he won’t get his room clean by dinnertime? Would you really reward him more?
Lifnei, wanting mashiach because afterwards there will be no more sick people, (besides for the fact that according to the rambam it’s not true) sounds like the wrong approach to me. We’re supposed to want mashiach for ruchniyus reasons, not personal reasons.
Exactly,
Let’s not be so self centered.
Moshiach is for Hashem not us..??
If we look at life as simply earning a reward, like earning the most points in a game. Which goes against Pirkei Avot, that says not to be like a servant serving his Master to earn reward. But even if we are motivated by earning the reward, we can’t actually receive the reward without Moshiach. Because Olam HaBah doesn’t exist yet, all that exists is Olam HaZeh ( this world). Olam HaBah is the world that is coming to this world. But for Olam Hazeh to transform into Olam HaBah, we need Hashem to send Eliyahu HaNavi, Moshiach ben Yoseph, and Moshiach ben David to lead us. We need all the Jewish people back in Eretz Yisrael, we all have to do teshuvah, we have to defeat Edom and Yishmael, we have to metahair the Land, we have rebuild the Temple, Hashem will return the Shechinah to the Kodesh HaKodashim, and then eventually lead to Techiyas HaMaisim. So even on the most simple level of wanting reward, we don’t get the salary until the job is done.
P.S. what’s so fun about rising anti-semitism, being insulted by all the nations, crushing economic pressure from Edom, seeing the Torah being despised by most of the world, being very far from Hashem. The coming of Moshiach starts the hard work, and the most rewarding work.
newbee,
This is not a good example because its a destructive act.
The fact that it was a destructive act was the main point of my example. Adam Harishon eating from the pri etz hadaas was a destructive act, one that made serving Hashem and garnering his physical sustenance much more difficult. So now the struggle is our reality, and the more we struggle the better, but that’s not the way things really should be.
A better example would be that not only does he clean his room, but he cleans the entire house, in order to get more reward. … Secretly hoping dinner time is pushed off until later so he has more time to clean the most houses and get the most reward in the short span of “cleaning time” there is etc….
What should be more important, cleaning the house and getting a few more bucks, or relating to his parents over the dinner table? If he gets to where he is secretly hoping his parents would be delayed, then I think he is missing the point.
apushatayid – you mentioned this Rambam but didn’t mention the source, or show the actual quote, so I thought I may (in english)
it’s from Hilchos Melachim 12:4
4. The Sages and prophets did not yearn for the Messianic Era in order
that [the Jewish people] rule over the entire world, nor in order that
they have dominion over the gentiles, nor that they be exalted by them,
nor in order that they eat, drink and celebrate. Rather, their
aspiration was that [the Jewish people] be free to involve themselves
in Torah and its wisdom, without anyone to oppress or disturb them, and
thus be found worthy of life in the World to Come, as we explained in
Hilchos Teshuvah.
(addition) I don’t know the source, but I believe somewhere the Rambam explains the main purpose of the messianic era and resurrection of the dead, is for the benefit of those Jews who were prevented from studying Torah and doing mitzvot due to outside forces such as persecution, poverty, and lack of resources, to have the opportunities to earn reward. (perhaps a lot of tinuk shnizbas?)
“And then he goes and cleans his grandparents house. And his neighbor’s house”
He is welcome to come clean the palace.
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