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on the ball: I disagree. It’s one thing to say that when Chazal knew of some other forms of public entertainment and nevertheless weren’t Mechalek themselves. It’s another when it’s very logical to say that our sports are not what they were talking about at all. If there is any source at all that Chazal were even talking about a nonviolent or nonsalacios public arenas then I would be Maskim to you. And I will give you a Raya that the Olam holds of this Chiluk. We have our Siyum Hashas (and the recent Asifa) in such stadiums, which would be absolutely Assur L’fi Pashtus Divrei Chazal. Thus, we seem to hold that Chazal’s statements about theaters and coliseums don’t apply to our football stadiums.
Sam2: Yes there is a chiluk. But without a halachic source, it is not a ‘mechalek’. You must admit that it is at least very possible that Rashi (from Chazal) meant any form of non-Jewish entertainment even non-violent and non-salacious ones. Ergo, you have no right to create an arbitrary limitation on his words just because you can identify a difference.
Doing just that with no halachic backing is a slippery slope that can eventually lead to the Reform idealogy of rejecting any halachah that has no clear modern rationale – Rachmana Litzlan.
But this works in 2 directions as well. You can look in the opposite direction as well. to Quote Rav Shlomo Friefeld
“If the only way we can sell our children Torah is by forbidding everything else, then we are bankrupt.”
Sam2: Again – one is simply not authorised to start making chilukim in the words of Chazal that have halachic no source irrespective of the ‘logic’ and irrespective of whether they did or didn’t know of other forms of entertainment.
Looking at other words of Chazal:
‘Logic’ would dictate that the Mitzva of Netilas Yadayim before eating was only for the days of Chazal when hygiene was more of a problem.
‘Logic’ would would dictate that Hadlakos Neros for Shabos was only for the days of Chazal when they had no electricity.
And ‘logic’ would dictate that we don’t need 2 days Yom Tov anymore now that we are proficient in astronomy and know exactly when Rosh Chodesh is.
But we simply don’t go down that route unless a recognised Halachic authority with the Daas Torah that comes with years of toiling in Halachah explains that that is how the Halachah should be understood.
Zahavasdad: “But this works in 2 directions as well. You can look in the opposite direction as well. to Quote Rav Shlomo Friefeld
“If the only way we can sell our children Torah is by forbidding everything else, then we are bankrupt.””
Yes, but the Issur of going to sports stadiums to sit amongst Goyim and watch non-Jewish sports accompanied by all the Pritzus is part of the ‘Torah’ in that statement and not the ‘everything else’.
Sam2: And your Raya doesn’t start. It’s not the location – it’s the activity.
On the ball: No. I suggest you go over what the Gemara and the Poskim say about having any activity (with the sole exception about a meeting for Pidyon Sh’vuyim, if I recall correctly) in a “circus and theater”.
Toi:
“mw13- i will pettily insult whomever i please”
Yes, apparently you will. In possible, if not probable, violation of both the asay of vi’uhavta li’rayacha kumocha and the lo sasay of onas devarim, the definite violation of just about mussar sefer every written, and only a matter of days before tisha bi’av. And be proud of it.
Wow.
OTB:
“No, please don’t krum op that Rashi. He clearly means partaking in non-Jewish entertainment and sports irrespective of what it entails.
I believe the Gemora says not like you, although I don’t remember the makor.
“If it contained A’Z and Gilui Arayos it would anyway be Asur.”
Interesting point. I would imagine that this comes to assur even going into the stadiums, even if one is not actually doing AZ/GA/SD.
One the ball: Your whole post is wrong because the Poskim do toil with these (and all other) issues about how to treat them nowadays.
Looking at other words of Chazal:
‘Logic’ would dictate that the Mitzva of Netilas Yadayim before eating was only for the days of Chazal when hygiene was more of a problem.
Hygiene has nothing to do with Srach T’rumah or Tumas Yadayim.
‘Logic’ would would dictate that Hadlakos Neros for Shabos was only for the days of Chazal when they had no electricity.
The Poskim deal with this at length. Many hold that if all of the lights are on in the house and will stay on then lighting Shabbos candles and making a Bracha on them would constitute a Bracha L’vatala. That’s why women flicker the lights. To show that these candles are the main lights and therefore we can make a Bracha and that the electric lights around them are just additional lights that we are providing in addition to the candles.
And ‘logic’ would dictate that we don’t need 2 days Yom Tov anymore now that we are proficient in astronomy and know exactly when Rosh Chodesh is.
They were proficient in astronomy. That’s not the reason for 2 day Yomim Tovim. See Beitzah 4b.
If you have any other examples of things which Lish’ora should be different nowadays I would be happy to provide you with sources or explanations from the Poskim about why they aren’t different (or even sometimes why they are). But all of these issues are discussed. Halachah doesn’t just ignore reality.
shucks.
There is nothing inherently wrong with going to a sporting event or following a sports franchise. If you attend an event does that mean you will ultimately gawk at an immodest woman or start to speak profanity? By that logic we should not be allowed to walk outside nor live in New York City. Don’t we have the ability to make the best judgements for ourselves and if we don’t suffer the consequences. It seems far too often in the orthodox Jewish community, in the post Rav Moshe era, that we attempt to deprive ourselves and every person in our path of making their own decisions and carefully analyzing their actions. If there is one aspect of something someone does not approve of we need to ban it outright, (see: Citi Field Asifa). Is this the way Hashem wants the Jewish community to behave themselves? It is embarrassing to see Jew against Jew, battle over the most insignificant of issues. If a father wants to take his children to a ballgame in order to spend time with his children, why does that concern you? Why is it your business to get involve in affairs that have zero meaning in your life? This is not achdus nor “kol yisrael arevim zeh la zeh”, and just leads people to be rebellious and commit sins they would not normally commit under ordinary circumstances.
WAJ: Halacha says you are wrong. See the many comments above citing the relevant halachos.
“in the post Rav Moshe era”
what about reb moshe himself and his opinion on ball games?
That is irrelevant to the context of my post. The problem is that each person is incapable of making their own decisions based on halacha and continue to be ostracized and scolded when they do make a mistake, if they are actually making one.
WASJ- hmm…you against halacha, hashkafa, and plain old logic. no-one should be ostracized for making mistakes, but arguing with the above, and the gedolei america sets you up to look pretty dumb on this issue.
I am not against Halacha. It is not brought up under any source about the halachic ramifications of attending a sporting events or following sports. For all that critique my posts on this subject, consider this, if most orthodox jewish people are against going to sports venues then why would 60000 Jews be willing to gather in Citi Field, home of the “goyishe”, NY Mets, for the purpose of banning the Internet and why are 90000 Jews attending MetLife Stadium for the Siyum HaShas on Wednesday Night if that building outside of this event also houses vulgar concerts, Jets cheerleaders, Profanity and males who get drunk and take their shirts off? I guess the those who follow the edict of not attending stadiums are willing to compromise their morals and principles if the circumstances are ideal. I get it now. I guess convenience takes precedence over integrity.
I am not against Halacha.
You’re just againt Halachas you don’t like.
It is not brought up under any source about the halachic ramifications of attending a sporting events or following sports.
Yes it is.
If you say I don’t follow Halacha educate me because I follow the Halacha to the letter of the law. I am not being Bal Tosef like other individuals who add their own chumrahs when there is no halachic basis for them.
Instead of guessing the Halacha, Why not ask your Rav.
the most likely answer is its assur because of Bittual Torah, not to diminish Bittual Torah, but not everyone can learn 16 hours a day and some need a diversion.
We have just been thru a Tisha B’Av and someone is still using the screen name Csar. If you know anything about Jewish history in Russia and about the 25 years of forced conscription the word Csar means SHMAD.
“‘Logic’ would would dictate that Hadlakos Neros for Shabos was only for the days of Chazal when they had no electricity.”
Rav Newirth (in Shmiras Shabbos K’Hilchasa) holds that a light bulb is Kosher for Hadlakas Neiros. My Rov holds like this as well. As a solution to possible problems of Brocha L’vatala, we light in a room that either has food (as candles are an enhancement to the shabbos feast) or in a darkened room, where the light is needed.
Interestingly enough, I once spoke to my Rov about the difference between Shabbos & Chanuka Neiros in the din of using a light bulb, and there is an interesting Chiluk.
5 points for the person that gets it right.
on the ball –
Yes there is a chiluk. But without a halachic source, it is not a ‘mechalek’. You must admit that it is at least very possible that Rashi (from Chazal) meant any form of non-Jewish entertainment even non-violent and non-salacious ones. Ergo, you have no right to create an arbitrary limitation on his words just because you can identify a difference.
Funny how everyone throws around sevaros and doesn’t bother opening up an Halacha sefer. ‘Theaters and stadiums’ is mentioned in Toras Kohanim, and the Rambam (Lav 30) explains ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ??????. The Bach (YD 178:5) says that the reason the Rambam didn’t explain them as referring to stam places of ???? and ?????? is because the context of the pasuk implies that it is only referring to ??????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????????, but theaters made stam for ???? and ?????? is not a ??? ????. The Gra (178:1) also brings down this Rambam. I don’t know anyone who argues. Therefore Sam’s definition of theaters and stadiums is actually very well-founded, and ???? ????? ????.
muttar
WAJ:
“There is nothing inherently wrong with going to a sporting event or following a sports franchise. If you attend an event does that mean you will ultimately gawk at an immodest woman or start to speak profanity?”
It is assur to go to a place with pritzus if you don’t need to go there. The Gemora says that if someone has two ways to get somewhere, one where he will pass by immodestly dressed women and one where he won’t, and he chooses the first path, he is a resha, even if he doesn’t look at the women.
“By that logic we should not be allowed to walk outside nor live in New York City.”
If it is feasible to avoid these places, then by all means one should do so.
“Don’t we have the ability to make the best judgements for ourselves and if we don’t suffer the consequences.”
Perhaps, but it must be done inside the parameters of Halacha.
“If there is one aspect of something someone does not approve of we need to ban it outright, (see: Citi Field Asifa).”
Oh, come on. There is not just “one aspect” of unfiltered internet that “some disagree with”; it’s massive and obvious problem, and I have never heard anybody put forward a rational argument that a frum Jew should have access to unfiltered internet.
“Is this the way Hashem wants the Jewish community to behave themselves? It is embarrassing to see Jew against Jew, battle over the most insignificant of issues.”
Who do you see battling anybody else? Nobody was condemned, much less battled against, at CitiField.
Saying something is wrong does not necessarily mean that one is condemning all those who that thing. For example, I think we’d all agree to the simple statement “loshon hara is wrong”; but that does not mean we are condeming or doing battle with anybody who has ever said loshon hara.
Same here. We are having a fairly objective debate of whether or nor one is, al pi halacha, allowed to go to a ball game. That is not at all the same thing as opening up a conversation condemning anyone who does go to a ball game.
Actually, the only one I see here who wrote a post with the exclusive purpose of “battling against” others is… you.
“If a father wants to take his children to a ballgame in order to spend time with his children, why does that concern you? Why is it your business to get involve in affairs that have zero meaning in your life?”
If a father wants to tell his children that going to a ballgame is assur because he believes that’s the halacha, why does that concern you? Why is it your business to get involve in affairs that have zero meaning in your life?
“if most orthodox jewish people are against going to sports venues then why would 60000 Jews be willing to gather in Citi Field, home of the “goyishe”, NY Mets, for the purpose of banning the Internet and why are 90000 Jews attending MetLife Stadium for the Siyum HaShas on Wednesday Night if that building outside of this event also houses vulgar concerts, Jets cheerleaders, Profanity and males who get drunk and take their shirts off? I guess the those who follow the edict of not attending stadiums are willing to compromise their morals and principles if the circumstances are ideal. I get it now. I guess convenience takes precedence over integrity.”
I’m sorry, but that made absolutely no sense. True, “that building outside of this event also houses vulgar concerts, Jets cheerleaders, Profanity”… but when it’s full of Frum Jews, none of those things are an issue. So what hypocrisy could there possibly be here?!
Oh, and remember how you were condemning those who “battle over the most insignificant of issues”? Well if this last paragraph of yours doesn’t fit the bill, I don’t know what does.
Waj, I completely agree with you.
It seems Judaism is now about controlling every aspect of our lives and leaving zero decision up to us. Everyone here is guilty of bitul Torah so get off the computers and go learn instead of insulting your fellow yidden because they are doing things you do not approve of.
MorahRach – actually yes that is exactly what Judaism is – it is precisely supposed to control every waking moment of our lives as we are all servants. Yes in a sense we are supposed to have zero decison as we are meant to be subservient to the decison of the Torah and our Torah leaders whether we like it or not.
‘Ki Li Bnei Yosrael Avodim….
Do you read the words you are typing? So we are not supposed to have free will at all? Why don’t we all just live in a ghetto then, get allotted a certain amount of exercise time, food, bathroom breaks, etc and have our days mapped out to a T for us. You make no sense. What on earth would the point of our world be if what you say is true?
Free will doesn’t mean you are allowed to do an aveira.
Despite what the Igros Moshe says about games there are many rabbonim who will give hetteirim depending who is asking the shaila to go to games & especially to those who are addicted to it & can’t get out of it. Each person should ask his or her rav if they have an hetter to go to games. Infact someone who many consider the top Posek in the U.S.A. has given at least one person I know an hetter to go to a game. I will not mention this Poseks name as this Posek does not like when people tell other what this rav Paskens unless this Rav gives permission for others to be told. Also this posek is against the Internet & would not want any psak this Rav gives posted online.
MorahRach:
“So we are not supposed to have free will at all?”
No; we are supposed to use our free will to subordinate our actions and will to that of the Torah. We have to, as the Mishna in Pirkei Avos says, make His will our will.
But yes, we absolutely must let the Torah tell us exactly how to live our lives.
“What on earth would the point of our world be if what you say is true?”
Um… to do what the Torah tells us to?
“Do you read the words you are typing?… You make no sense.”
Rather judgmental words from someone who, only last post, was complaining about others being too judgmental…
On the ball: I’m not disagreeing in this particular case, but I think MorahRach’s point was that even though there are clear bounds of Hetter and Issur and even though a person should always be M’chavein L’sheim Shamayim, there still is some leeway for personal preferences in Judaism for things that are Muttar but not Chiyuvim.
I was not trying to be judgemental, what he said just actually does not make sense to me. Having a disagreement is not the sane thing as saying ” learn to spell” or ” do you k kw what grammar is?”.
I just remember in school learning about free will and what a big part of our lives it is. Ofcourse Hashem knows exactly what decisions and choices we are going to make, but they are ours to make and everything is not as clear cut as you make it seem.
On a different note I feel as though people In this thread are very very hung ho about jot going to games calling it assur etc.. But are defending those who look at shmutz and other bad things on line via the ” if your husband gets outed thread”. Which is worse? Studying up late while your wife is asleep looking at pornography or taking your sons to a baseball game?
Anyway.. Did not mean gone too judgmental before and I apologize.
Because I owe my frumkeit, my sanity, and maybe even my life to an unpublished igeres, of Rav Moshe, zkvg’l, I have come out of a long self imposed posting exile to protest for Kovod torahso. The Torah carefully warns of this malady: “vai’satmum Plishtim aharei mos
Avrohom”(Bereshis 26;18) They would not have had the EDITED to oppose him while he still lived among them. You see, that the Plishtim still had some degree of busha, wheras in America, and the CR it is nearly extinct.
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