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im not necessarily disagreeing that wearing shorts is chukas hagoyim, im just disagreeing with yanky55’s rayah. just because your ups driver wears shorts doesnt mean you cant let your kid do the same. i mean, your ups driver probably eats cereal and milk for breakfast. is your family graduating to coffee and donuts? actually, i could probably name a few goyim who eat that too. maybe you shouldnt eat at all.
Actually, this entire thread is becoming rediculous.
Issue 1 should be, what is the halcha?
Once that is solved, then what is the corrcect thing to do from a sensitivty stand point.
I think even those comments that are leaning towards or outrightly (is that a word?) saying that it is ASSUR, are not sayin so mitoich Halacha. It seems that is “assur” from a sensitivity stand point. In other words, just as you wouldn’t go to a business meeting in shorts, so too you shouldn’t go to bais medrash, walk in the street. However, in a gym, excersize room, basketball/volleyball courts, etc., whot would be the issue?
One poster mentioned boys camps with many women walking around boys camps. Unfortunately there ar emany women that walk around boys camps. In truth, almost everything the see is muttar l’halacha, because women may see legs, etc of boys/men. However, from a sensitivity standpoint just like they shouldn’t be in the pool area during men’s swimming, so too they should be making themselves scarce on the boys camp grounds.
im not necessarily disagreeing that wearing shorts is chukas hagoyim
I am.
I’m still waiting for someone who believes that wearing shorts is assur because of chukas hagoyim to tell me why shorts are assur but ties are not.
The Wolf
The bottom line in married women covering their hair by any means, is to know why the hair must be covered> If it is to make them less attractive, then pretty wigs SHOULD be assur. If, the rationale is just in order to remind women that they are married, then it makes no difference WHAT they use to cover it or even how attractive that covering is. If Hashem did not say to Moshe Rabbeinu to tell women to cover their hair “so that they will be less attractive to men other than their own husbands,” then this entire conversation seems moot.
Perhaps there are two purposes? Perhaps there is an issue of covering the hair to symbolize the fact that she is married.
And beyond that, the normal laws of Tzinius of any clothing item apply – the fine line between between put to together and showy?
Is that a possibility, Oomis?
“Perhaps there is an issue of covering the hair to symbolize the fact that she is married”
(This is far removed from boys wearing shorts, but I guess is par for the course for the coffee room!). Divorced and widowed women also must cover their hair is it to symbolize that they are married?
Good point. To keep things to a Haskafic perspective, the concept is not only being married, but a symbol of a loss of innocence, and hence a need for additional tzinius & dignity; she is not a little girl anymore, even if she is widowed or divorced; she is an Em B’Yisrael. It is a symbol of dignity and knowing. Merely being married does not obligate a woman to cover her hair. Hence, most Kallos do not cover their hair when they walk away the chuppah, even though they are certainly Halachic married.
I don’t believe the covering of hair is associated with the “loss of innonence”, but will drop the subject and get back to boys wearing shorts.
Someone mentioned the concept of “sensitivities”. Is it not a bit arrogant to say you don’t wear shorts not to offend my sensitivities, and not consider those who would otherwise be very uncomfortable due to your sensitivities?
Put another way. Must my 10 year old son shvitz in long pants because of your sensitivities? Perhaps you are obligated to put your sensitivites aside for my sons comfort? Just a thought.
Perhaps there are two purposes? Perhaps there is an issue of covering the hair to symbolize the fact that she is married.
And beyond that, the normal laws of Tzinius of any clothing item apply – the fine line between between put to together and showy?
Is that a possibility, Oomis? “
Anything in life is possible. But unless we are certain that the covering hair is for reasons of tznius, we should not be telling that to people as absolute fact of halacha. It sounds good, but that does not make it the reason. If a woman is unmarried at age 45, does she not have to show dignity and tznius also?
BTW, the obligation to cover the hair (as I was taught ) comes after the Cjhosson and Kallah have been intimate. Some peope feel that being in the Yichud room for some amount of time qualifies also.
APY, for the record, there are Poskim who matir for divorced and widowed ladies to NOT cover their hair, so that they may find shidduchim. Not all such ladies continue to cover it.
I’m aware of those hetterim, I didn’t want to discuss hair coverings and didn’t want to mention those women, who despite their loss of “innonence” are allowed to go out with their hair uncovered. I still don’t want to discuss the topic 🙂
I meant to polite, Oomis.
There is one purpose. To symbolize a woman’s married/has been married status.
However, even if it’s purpose is not tzinius, it still must be tzinius.
A nurse’s white uniform is not for tzinius. It symbolizes her status.
It still must be tzinius. Not more or less then had the nurse been wearing a regular item of clothing. Or jewelry. Or anything.
A woman’s shaitel must be at least as tzinius as an unmarried girls hair. Simple.
That is an absolute fact of Halacha. Just like a nurse’s uniform.
A single girl of 45 – may there be not such thing in Khal Yisrael! – lacks a knowledge and dignity that a young married woman has. Unfortunately, there are aspects of life , relationships, family – that she will never understand.
For the record, all Poskim agree that there is an obligation to wear a shaitel after a normal marriage. The dispensation you heard of is from R’ Moshe, who permitted dating women to present themselves as not having been married previously (obviously revealthing their real status before engagement etc.) because of the tremendous hefsed (loss) it would have caused them to cover there hair. The obligation still remains. Of that, no one disagrees
oomis1105 – “The bottom line in married women covering their hair by any means, is to know why the hair must be covered> If it is to make them less attractive, then pretty wigs SHOULD be assur. If, the rationale is just in order to remind women that they are married, then it makes no difference WHAT they use to cover it or even how attractive that covering is.”
If the reason women cover their hair was to remind themselves that they are married, wouldn’t they have to cover their always, not just in the presence of men that they’re not related to (as I believe is the case)?
“If Hashem did not say to Moshe Rabbeinu to tell women to cover their hair “so that they will be less attractive to men other than their own husbands,” then this entire conversation seems moot.”
No, the Rabbonim have the right and the ability to figure out why Hashem said what He did, and then to apply that principle to other cases as well. This is how the Rabbonim have figured out what the halacha should be for thousands of years, ever since Hashem stopped talking straight to the Navim.
“No, the Rabbonim have the right and the ability to figure out why Hashem said what He did, and then to apply that principle to other cases as well. This is how the Rabbonim have figured out what the halacha should be for thousands of years, ever since Hashem stopped talking straight to the “
And clearly not all wer or are in agreement with each other as to how that principle is applied, or we would not be having this discussion.
Regarding boys wearing shorts. Is there anyone who is offended by it? Is there anyone who holds it is an absolute issur? Is it age dependent? If yes, what is that age?
“I don’t believe the covering of hair is associated with the “loss of innocence”, but will drop the subject and get back to boys wearing shorts”
umm… apushuteyid, i suggest you take a look at Rav Falk’s sefer,
also Moq, very good point (previous post of yours) if i’m correct i think it’s Rav Moshe who says that that’s why a kallah doesn’t have to cover her hair till the next morning.
1: Regarding Rav Falks sefer. My wife doesnt use it, so I dont have it in the house. She prefers the sefer Halichos Bas Yisroel.
2: The Minhagim surrounding when a Kallah covers her hair are many, including those whose minhag it is for a kallah to cover her hair prior to the chuppah. Perhaps this is A reason but not THE reason.
It’s a machlokes Rishonim, the Rosh & rashbah, by Kiddish V’Lo Bah Aleh if there is a chiyuv of kisui rosh. If you pasken like the Rashbah, there is. Hence a girl leaving the chuppah after kiddushin would be obligated to cover her hair. According to the Rash, the chiyuv is only achar sh’ba alehah. hence, only later. Even a woman who was married for a long amount of time could still use this heter (aka if she gets divorced, without relying on the R’Moshe of Hefsed).
apushatayid – “Regarding boys wearing shorts. Is there anyone who is offended by it? Is there anyone who holds it is an absolute issur? Is it age dependent? If yes, what is that age?”
I don’t think it is so much a halachic problem as it is that some people feel it is inappropriate for a mature ben Torah to wear shorts. After all, the reasoning goes, you don’t see chashuva Rabbonim (or even li’havdil chushva goyim) going around in shorts, do you?
I only wear shorts during the summer when not at work as I tend to dress as comfortably as possible and no chance I am wearing long pants and white shirt in this hot weather. But kudos to all of you who wear lange rekel white shirt and long pants I don’t know how you guys do it but best of luck with that.
I do it bacause this is what my father and his father….. did. Even if it’s hard.
I am not telling anyone to do it.
says who – “I do it bacause this is what my father and his father….. did. Even if it’s hard.”
Kudos to you. It’s dedication to mesorah like that which kept our nation alive through the ages.
So I was wearing shorts today and I realized it was time for mincha. I drove there but then I realized that I would feel uncomfortable wearing shorts in a place where people would stare at me and Judge me for the way I dress. While I was deciding I missed mincha! I’m not sure what I should have learned from this story?
You should have learnt not to wear shorts – or at least not if you won’t have time to change before davening.
Always bring along the other half
My son asked me if he could wear shorts today but I looked out the window and didn’t see any neighbors wearing them so I told him he couldn’t.
<wondering if someone out there would really think I’m serious>
Far east: The Mishnah in Megilah says that one who wears shorts may not Daven for the Amud (well, one P’shat in the Mishnah that seems to be brought down L’halacha says that, at least). It says nothing about Davening or about being in Shul in shorts. There is definitely a lack of “Hikon Likras Elokecha Yisrael” in wearing shorts for Davening, but Tzarich Iyun if that should outweigh the Ma’aleh of T’filah B’tzibbur.
I may be a minority here but I feel that shorts are a lack of tznius and should not be worn in public.
Mod 42: They are clearly not a lack of Tznius per se in the usual sense. You would need a source saying that. There is certainly not the Tznius issue that there is when a woman wears something not appropriate. There is, however, an issue of what is considered proper attire in each and every community and what is therefore befitting of a representative of Hashem to wear. See Mishnah B’rurah 2:1, if I recall correctly.
42 – I agree. Especially if you wear them with black knee socks and loafers.
These werent really the answers i was expecting. I mean i have no intention of not wearing shorts anymore. If thats how you hold i respect that, but dont tell me i wasnt supposed to be wearing shorts when i dont hold that way. I just think its sad that because i was afraid of people judging me i didnt make the best decision.
nothing wrong with shorts just not appropriate for davening
I heard from somebody that R’ Avrohom Yehoshua Soleveichik once said:
Why do bochurim wear shorts in ??? ???????
It used to be that a ???? who learnt 10 a day during ??? learnt only 5 ??? ??????. If you would get up before ????? one hour a day, ??? ?????? you did 1/2 hour.
IF YOUR WHOLE ??? IS TROUSERS, WHAT DO YOU EXPECT????
[Whether the story ever happened or not is as debatable as most of the things said in his name]
There is a ???? in ????? – I cannot remember exactly where – which speaks about davening in shorts [which was definitely not the accepted thing in those days], yet the only problem defined is ???? ?????, that a guy in shorts cannot be ?”?. It sounds like just davening in shorts is not even a problem..
[DISCLAIMER: I MEAN NOT TO PASKEN, SPEAK TO YOUR LOR. PERSONALLY, I WOULD NEVER DAVEN IN SHORTS. I AM JUST POINTING OUT THAT MAY BE HALACHICALLY PERMITED
My 4 yr old son wears shorts and i dont see anything wrong with a child up to a certain age wearing shorts. I do feel shorts are indecent at a certain age, but thats just my opinion.
I used to wear shorts to daven and duchen but the flies kept annoying me so I stopped
The Mishnah in Megilah says that one who wears shorts may not Daven for the Amud (well, one P’shat in the Mishnah that seems to be brought down L’halacha says that, at least).
I guess then that someone should tell the people in the shul where I daven that I am no longer eligible to daven for the Amud since I, on occasion, wear shorts. True, the last time I wore them outside was about five years ago (when in St. Thomas), but there’s nothing saying that I wouldn’t do so again in [what I consider to be] an appropriate situation/place.
Furthermore, I wear short pajamas to bed every night, so certainly I’m no longer eligible to daven for the Amud.
The Wolf
Wolf: Thank you for correcting my mistaken Lashon. I meant someone who is wearing shorts (at that time), not someone who wears shorts at other times.
wolf- making fun of a gamara will certainly get you out of gehenom faster.
Toi: He was not making fun of the Gemara. He was pointing out my slight misrepresentation of it (by using an improper wording) and I thanked him for correcting me.
Wolf: Thank you for correcting my mistaken Lashon. I meant someone who is wearing shorts (at that time), not someone who wears shorts at other times.
Thank you for the clarification, Sam2.
wolf- making fun of a gamara
Where did you see that I was making fun?
The Wolf
Am I missing something? I’m sorry you missed davening because you were afraid what others would think. How do we not all agree that it would have been better to make it to shul and daven with a minyan then miss out because of shorts. I also don’t see exactly what is so terrible about shorts. My husband wears them in the summer. I can bet you he has better midos then an enormous amount of the men walking around here in their jackets and vests etc. but everyone does their own thing for some wearing shorts is not appropriate. No one can really believe that it was better not to daven and that was his point. Society puts so much pressure on us and we are so afraid of what others will thing we end up making the Wrong decisions out of fear.
Rav Chaim writes in his Sefer that it’s better to daven b’yechidus than without a hat. Al achas kama v’kama that it is better to daven at home, after getting into normal pants, than to go to shul in shorts.
MorahRach- thank you for Being The only one who understood my point. We focus so much on the externalities and the nitty gritty details that sometimes we lose sight of the bigger picture. Of course it’s better to daven in a minyan with shorts then to not go at all
Morahrach- also what you touched on about not doing things out of fear. It’s a massive problem in some communities. People can’t always hold up to the communities standards and rather then act how they would like. They sometimes make the wrong decisions out of fear. Like missing shuir cause they can’t keep up, or not going to shacharis because their missin their hat
Choppy: That’s just not true. It’s quoted in his name. He never published it. Someone once told me that he asked him if he really Paskened that way and he said that he never said it.
It is true. And he published it in his Sefer. You have a bad habit of denying truths not to your worldview. And then coming up with some unknown anon supposed source who allegedly asked someone something somewhere.
I’ll start a new thread with the maare makom and quote in Sh’eilos Rav.
Some posters seem slightly flaming over here…
Choppy: I seem to deny truths not to my worldview? Was that a joke? I don’t have a worldview. I just learn and try to source everything I say and think in a Gemara if I can. And the source for your statement, I believe, is “Kol Haposel B’mumo Posel”.
I could tell you the name of my reliable source for this, if you want. But I hope that the mods wouldn’t let it through. This is the internet. It’s by definition anonymous. When (if) he publishes a Sefer some day and quotes R’ Chaim on it then I’ll show you my source.
Sam: If you want, I could tell you the name of my reliable source that not only anyone who teaches gemora to girls will go the gehenim, but even anyone who advocates or tells people it’s muttar is going there. But I hope that the mods wouldn’t let it through. This is the internet. When he publishes a Sefer some day and quotes R’ Moshe on it, then I’ll show you my source.
I tried to read entire thread. but did not. so if I am repeating what one has said please forgive me.
My sons wore shorts till aboout age 7..
the melamdim then requested that they do not wear shorts because they might touch their legs during learning causing them to become ‘tumah’ and constantly request to leave the room to wash their hands.
as far as I know men/boys may walk around in their underwear. there is no issur of znius!
There are definitely other reasons that they do not dress in this way, ZNIUS is not one of them.
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