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okay if it bothers you that people tell you are doing something wrong, while you dont agree, fine. makes sense.
i dont seeing you becoming incensed and ranting at their opinions. those that do are in MY opinion probably insecure about their position.
At this point, they are no longer machmir on themselves, they are (in essence) saying that if you do so, you are doing something wrong. *That’s* the point where I stand up and begin protesting.
i guess you are more righteous than i, or perhaps a bigger kanoi. i personally dont have the slightest inclination to “protest” when my inference from someones public statement is that i am doing something assur.
of course if it is something that i didnt realize was actually possibly assur, i would certainly be grateful for their statement. its always valuable to keep reexamining ones deeds.
but if what you mean to say is that you feel a need to protest statements that are Sheker. then im all with you
i guess you are more righteous than i, or perhaps a bigger kanoi
I make absolutely no claim to righteousness. Nor do I think I am a zealot in any sense of the word. On the contrary, if anything, if I err, it’s more on the “live and let live” side.
i personally dont have the slightest inclination to “protest” when my inference from someones public statement is that i am doing something assur.
I guess we’re different in that regard.
of course if it is something that i didnt realize was actually possibly assur, i would certainly be grateful for their statement. its always valuable to keep reexamining ones deeds.
Agreed. But that doesn’t mean that when someone yells “shorts are assur” that I have to re-examine it every time.
The Wolf
Mod- are you denying the fact that many youths feel resentment to yiddishkeit for this reason that everything becomes assur?
People take perfectly ok things and label them ASSUR. If you do those things then you are looked down at.
In some communities it’s shorts, in some it’s colored shirts, women driving, etc…
When people see that they are from the “lower” group, but they are doing everything 100% muttar, then they become resentful…
that doesn’t mean that when someone yells “shorts are assur” that I have to re-examine it every time.
as i said:
if it is something that i didnt realize was actually possibly assur,
no smartcookie im not denying that youths feel resentment that many things are assur. nor am i denying that are some people who look down on others who do not follow their opinions of what is assur or muttar.
Mod, I’m rereading your post now. I think I misunderstood. However, I’m still not fully understanding your point. But since it wasn’t directed to me, you don’t have to re-explain.
There is only one person who I take seriously when he says “its assur”, my Rav. Everyone else is just expressing an opinion. In cyberspace everyone has an opinion.
im not sure what i meant either smartcookie but i think apushatayid explainded it
Thire is an inen that you must always know that hashem is in the room with you. Since you would not do it in front of Rav Chaim Kanievsky so you shouldnt do it.
My problem with people making things into “strong chumros” so much so that the lay man (or kids) cant defrentiate them between a chumra and halacha is thats where I believe the Kids-At-Risk comes into play. I’m not trying to get off of this very important topic of shorts or anything.
But that was my point in my earlier post.
The problem with people taking chumros and turning them into Halachos is that when that person says that x is assur and it really is, no one will listen cuz they’ll think it’s another chumrah. So people should really be careful about what they say is assur or not. (I’m not just talking about people on the internet)
that was my point in my earlier post.
and i think thats a good point
My problem with people making things into “strong chumros” so much so that the lay man (or kids) cant differentiate them between a chumra and halacha is thats where I believe the Kids-At-Risk comes into play
Couldn’t have said it better. Children today are VERY CONFUSED….and all adults who throw chumros around unnecessarily are at fault.
Thire is an inen that you must always know that hashem is in the room with you. Since you would not do it in front of Rav Chaim Kanievsky so you shouldnt do it.
I know you don’t mean to compare R. Chaim to HKBH, but the way your post is worded…
Nonetheless, there’s lots of perfectly legitimate things that I wouldn’t do in front of R. Chaim (or other respectable people). For example, I would never go into my kitchen, take out the peanut butter, jelly and bread, prepare a sandwich and eat it in front of an odom gadol. Should I no longer eat sandwiches*?
The Wolf
(* No, I’m not talking about eating in general. But while I would eat a formal meal in front of [or, rather, with] an odom gadol**, I wouldn’t eat an informal one. Should I not be allowed to eat a PB&J sandwich?)
(** Not that R. Chaim or anyone else would want to eat a meal with a low-life heretic like me.)
(** Not that R. Chaim or anyone else would want to eat a meal with a low-life heretic like me.)
Wolf- just so that you should know, it is Assur to say Loshon Hora about yourself. So if this is true, you are being over on Loshon Hora. Otherwise it’s motzei shem ra.
So please stop talking about yourself like that. You keep doing it.
It really bothers me btw.
The fact the some miscontents resent issurim or chumros, is no reason whatsoever to turn issurim into mutturim or to even change chumros into kulos.
“So please stop talking about yourself like that. You keep doing it.
It really bothers me btw.”
Ever heard a big Rav say that hes a “pashuta am haaretz” I would say its in the same vain.
And I doubt your losing any sleep over it. It’s not like you know the guy.
yechezkel89
again there is absolutely no problem with wearing shorts in public w/ regards to tznius, those who say that it is create an unnecessary chumra.
I have a Rebbi who is in general very against chumras, yet he is very against wearing shorts in public as well. He is not trying to create chumras. He is trying to promote sensitivity that has been lost in this generation. He told a story that when he was younger he once went to the park and there was a man there who was being thrown out of the park by the police for being dressed inappropriately – he was not wearing a shirt – only an undershirt. In those days even the goyim considered it improper to wear just an undershirt in public, nowadays people will jog with no shirt at all and it is considered normal. The sensitivity has been lost. My rebbi explained that the concepts still apply and therefore, even though it is completely accepted in the world, we as b’nei Torah should not wear shorts in public.
Josh31
In warm climates shorts are practical, and for men there is no improper uncovering.
The pasuk of “v’hatznea leches” applies to men as well.
Sacrilege
If the question had been is it tznius for boys to run around with their shirts off you MAY have an argument. But shorts…. Really?
See my comments to yechezkel89
Sister Bear
The problem with people taking chumros and turning them into Halachos is that when that person says that x is assur and it really is, no one will listen cuz they’ll think it’s another chumrah. So people should really be careful about what they say is assur or not. (I’m not just talking about people on the internet)
It’s the boy who cried Wolf. When one person starts calling every chumra a halacha then people won’t take them seriously anymore. Unfortunately, it’s not just the one person who they stop taking seriously but anyone who is “frummer” than them. They will assume that every halacha they are told is just another chumra. If WolfishMusings ever wants to correct someone on a real halachik mistake they are making they will just assume that he is being machmir, they won’t take him seriously. It is therefore important for him to point out all the absurd things that people are saying for what they are so that when the time does come for him to post an actual halacha, people will take him seriously.
SACRILEGE: gedolim often said those things because they really believed that about themselves. They don’t believe that they are gedolim.
But wolf is just saying it because he feels that if he does things that others don’t, then he’s looked down at.
That is exactly what bothers me. Even if I don’t know the guy.
When others keep less Chumros than we do, we don’t look down at them they may even be better jews.
I am from very ultra frum circles but I believe that every Yid that keeps all aspects of Halacha, is just as good as me(or even better).
But wolf is just saying it because he feels that if he does things that others don’t, then he’s looked down at.
Actually, I say these things because I truly believe them. I certainly have my faults, but lying isn’t one of them. 🙁
I try to live up to my own standards, not someone else’s. Unfortunately, I often fail at even that task.
The Wolf
Wolf- do you truly believe you’re a low life heretic?
Wolf- do you truly believe you’re a low life heretic?
Sometimes.
The Wolf
“Wolf- do you truly believe you’re a low life heretic?
Sometimes.”
Well now that we are getting all serious about it, that zaps the fun right out of it. And here I though you had a sense of humor…
Chofetz Chaim – I’m not sure what your post proves. Sensativity/Chumra Tomato/Tomahto.
Wolf- in all seriousness- if you sometimes feel like it, then why don’t you make sure to change?
Am I missing something here? You sometimes TRULY feel like a lowlife heretic but you seem to be quite ok with it?
“we as b’nei Torah should not wear shorts in public”
There is a higher standard of dress for those who are Torah Scholars. This is mentioned in the Talmud.
Smartcookie: Wolf has a Nekudas Ha’emes so strong that some of us can’t understand it. I believe we’d better leave his behavior to his own judgement. You needn’t worry- he will not readily relinquish that which he holds true, just as he will not readily jump up to grab that which is dangled above him.
chofetzchaim
the rosh yesiva ztl also had a problem with boys under bar mitzva wearing shorts or only over?
Mod 42 – I’m really sorry, but I’m totally confused at what you wrote. Do you mind explaining how what you wrote is in response to what I wrote? I’m really lost. Thanks.
Am I missing something here? You sometimes TRULY feel like a lowlife heretic but you seem to be quite ok with it?
When do I seem “quite ok” with being a low-life heretic?
Or are you presuming that I believe I’m a low-life heretic because of the positions I take on this board? If so, then, unfortunately, you’re mistaken.
The Wolf
the rosh yesiva ztl
Please forgive my utter ignorance, but *which* Rosh Yeshiva?
The Wolf
Could someone explain to me what the problem is in first place!
Wolf – What specifically causes you to believe you are a low-life heretic>
If I could go back to shorts for a minute, and leave Wolf on the psychoanalyst’s couch for later… Shorts on a man might be a tzniut problem, if it would cause the surrounding population to gawk. Tzniut for men is – or should be – treated similarly as for women. Maybe there aren’t as many areas that men halachically have to cover up, but calling attention to one’s physical attributes is inappropriate in most settings.
On the other hand, IMHO, at the beach (if one were to go to the beach) one were to call more attention to oneself dressed in a white shirt, black pants and a hat (yes, I am aware of the incongruity of the beach and black hat examples!)
I guess, based on my theory then, shorts on a well-toned, tan young guy would be assur, but on a fat, hairy, old white guy they’d be perfectly OK….?
Wolf – What specifically causes you to believe you are a low-life heretic>
It’s simply how I feel about myself sometimes — nothing more, nothing less.
The Wolf
Sister Bear:
Mod 42 – I’m really sorry, but I’m totally confused at what you wrote. Do you mind explaining how what you wrote is in response to what I wrote? I’m really lost. Thanks.
I was just explaining what you wrote. Basically that when people make everything out to be halacha and don’t differentiate between halacha and chumra, then people will no longer take them seriously.
mexipal
chofetzchaim
the rosh yesiva ztl also had a problem with boys under bar mitzva wearing shorts or only over?
WolfishMusings:
the rosh yesiva ztl
Please forgive my utter ignorance, but *which* Rosh Yeshiva?
Wolf, as it was in response to my post, I assume that mexipal was referring to R’ Henach Leibowitz ZT”L, the Rosh Yeshiva of Chofetz Chaim. Actually, my post above was not referring to him but to one of his talmidim who is a current rebbi in the yeshiva. I was referring to a specific speech that was given. The speech was directed at current b’nei hayeshiva advising them not to go jogging in shorts in public. I’m not sure how it would apply to under Bar Mitzvah.
Several people have posited that it is “assur” for boys to wear shorts. so far, the only “issur” mentioned is trampling on someone elses seisitivities and the always easy to throw around “tznius”. Is there a posek that has issued a psak that it is forbidden for a man to go out jogging in a pair of shorts?
Please consider the following question and answer.
Q: Is it permissible to pray the Amida while wearing shorts?
A: Only in areas where it is customary to wear shorts in the presence of prominent and distinguished people, such as in agricultural communities; even in such cases, however, one should not serve as Chazan while wearing shorts (Halacha Berura).
If the wearing of shorts was categorically assur, would this answer make any sense?
The Q & A comes from here. http://www.mishnaberura.com/Default.asp?ChelekID=1&SeifID=319
Mod. 42 – thanks 🙂 Sorry that I wasn’t clear.
This is my first post, I’ve been reading for a while and learning a lot about Orthodoxy from you all. I’m currently Noachide, coming out of mennonite/amish areas of christianity, I mention my past to say that our family have held modesty very highly for a long time now.
I know this is going back to last week, so I’m sorry for jumping in late but I’ve been thinking about this for a while and would really like some insight.
If boys wearing shorts could be considered chukas hagoyim (which I know many didn’t agree), could you please explain to me as an outsider why women wearing wigs as opposed to a tichel (or other cloth coverings) wouldn’t be more “chukas hagoyim” than boys in shorts. I know some are against wigs, but it seems to me wigs are the norm.
I’m not trying to start any arguments, I’m sincerely wondering.
Thank you 🙂
Sean Ben Noach
Sean Ben Noach:
Really the only answer to your question is that the chukas hagoyim issue is clearly not related to wearing shorts. Only one poster brought it up, and he is mistaken. Chukas hagoyim stems from things at least tangentially related to idol/foreign religion worship or promiscuity. The correct issue regarding this subject (boys in shorts) is tznius, not chukas hagoyim. And that is the same question regarding wigs.
Good luck!
About the official issue at hand: I was always under the impression that the only tzniyus for men (besides nakedness) was that they should not reveal more than what is normal in that place (minhag hamakom). In that case, in more yeshivish places it would be a problem to wear shorts, while in more modern places it would be OK.
Sacrilege – “My problem with people making things into “strong chumros” so much so that the lay man (or kids) cant defrentiate them between a chumra and halacha is thats where I believe the Kids-At-Risk comes into play. I’m not trying to get off of this very important topic of shorts or anything.”
I honestly don’t think that many people go off the derech due to the abundance of chumrahs that other people have. I believe the primary cause of the rejection of yiddishkeit CH”V is when a youngster feels forced into going through the motions of Judaism without connecting to the meaning behind it. In other words, I don’t think it matters how many chumros you keep, I think the issue is if you force observance down your child’s (or student’s) throat or if you show them the beauty of yiddishkeit.
Sean Ben Noach – Since the commonly accepted practice is for frum women to wear wigs, I do not think it is considered chukas hagoyim since people do not look at it as a goyish thing. Even those who do not allow wigs do so on tzniyus concerns, not chukas hagoyim. Also, in general we say it is more of problem to actively do something (wear shorts) than it is to not do something (look like your not covering your hair). (Not that I’m saying there is a problem of chukas hagoyim wearing shorts, only that there is even less of a chashash of an issur by shaitels.)
“Since you would not do it in front of Rav Chaim Kanievsky so you shouldnt do it.”
If R’ Chaim Kanievsky was sitting next to the basketball court in my bungalow colony, he would see me playing in shorts. I guess for me, the wearing of shorts it muttar according to this standard.
Max well – “Chukas hagoyim stems from things at least tangentially related to idol/foreign religion worship or promiscuity.”
According to many shitos, chukas hagoyim is on anything related to and associated with a secular culture, for fear that we will become enmeshed in a non-Torah culture and lose sight of our priorities.
@MW13 – “According to many shitos, chukas hagoyim is on anything related to and associated with a secular culture, for fear that we will become enmeshed in a non-Torah culture and lose sight of our priorities.”
From this thread and the way I saw it being interpreted, I also understood “chukas hagoyim” to mean how mw13 just stated. To which I still would question why wigs are acceptable. I realize that it’s been accepted for a long time, but can I ask why it was originally accepted? From the outside it seems like it’s hiding that your covered. In this instance I would think that chuckas hagoyim and tzniut are combined.
Perhaps I need a proper definition of tzniut also.
Thank you 🙂
Sean Ben Noach
please excuse my Hebrew conjugations if they’re wrong… Rosetta Stone hasn’t covered Orthodox Judaism yet! 🙂
Way back when wigs started becoming acceptable I don’t think they looked like hair at all ;)Did you ever see a synthetic sheital?? 🙂
I’m just speculating here and could totally be wrong (probably am) but many women in the olden days didn’t cover their hair, the Rabbanim could’ve thought that it’s better that the women cover their hair even with other hair than not cover it at all. I’m just guessing.
Also, I don’t know a lot of non-Jewish women that cover their hair. If you think about it this way, all other religions that forbid womens hair to be uncovered cover it with cloth. So maybe wearing a tichel or other cloth covering is considered chukas hagoyim. 😉
MW13- I think the beauty a lot of times gets clouded by sll the ridiculous “chumros”. What does shorts have to do with the beauty of Shabbos?
Sacrilege – Wow, am I confused. Who said anything about shabbos?
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