Is it still Talmud Torah?

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  • #601731
    gubbish
    Participant

    One of the blogs i follow posted about the following question. i firgured i’d ask it here to see a variety of opinion.

    Are the scientific parts of the gemara (ignoring the controversy of their accuracy) or any other sefer still considered Talmud Torah? In regard to chiyuv talmud torah, or whether its assur to take sefer of the Rambam on medicine into the bathroom etc… things like that.

    any ideas?

    #865868
    sam4321
    Participant

    Yes it is(see Sefer Nefesh Hachaim Shar daled).

    #865869
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Shar 4 doesn’t address teh second question, which I believe is muttar.

    #865870
    yahud
    Member

    are you doubting if a part of gemara is torah!!??!!

    #865871
    oomis
    Participant

    If it is in the Gemarah, it is Talmud Torah.

    #865872
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If it is in the Gemarah, it is Talmud Torah.

    That’s what I told my 6th grade rebbe when he caught me with a Batman comic inside my Bava Metziah. He didn’t buy it.

    #865873
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    yahud: shaar blatt?

    #865874
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    I am inclined to paraphrase Saul Lieberman here.

    #865875
    lebidik yankel
    Participant

    My humble opinion is that what you call science is not so. In many things Chazal did not know the truth, yet the Torah was intended to be codified and fashioned into a practical Torah, halkacha lemeisa, which is impossible unless one takes a stand about the scientific truth of what is happening. Hence we have treifos that live just fine, and others, that die, yet are not considered treifos. This ought not to be considered an error; it is the effect of Hashem telling fallible humans to codify the Torah. Such is Hashem’s will. (Chazon Ish. He elaborates that there was even a certain period to do this codifying; the two thousand years of Torah, he calls them)

    So I would say that there is no science in the gemara; it is instead “halachik science”, an auxiliary to Torah.

    The Rambam on health, however, is not Torah.

    #865876
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    yitayningwut: Please do.

    #865877
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Itche – Lol, do you know which quote I am referring to?

    #865878
    gubbish
    Participant

    lol +1 for daas yochid.

    and yahud: if its purely scientific than its a just a saying from someone, albeit a very great someone, who lived over a thousand years ago. Why is something kadosh just because Ravina/Rav Ashi decided it should be published in Talmd Bavli?

    #865879
    Sam2
    Participant

    Yankel: We don’t hold like that Chazon Ish on “2000 years of Torah”. We hold using a microwave on Shabbos is Bishul D’Oraisa.

    #865880
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Sam2 – Who’s “we”?

    #865881
    lebidik yankel
    Participant

    Sam2: That’s because the criterion for bishul was formulated as anything that is standard bishul, derech bishul (although many achronim still feel that only fire is truly derech bishul, and microwaves are not d’oraisa…)

    However about other things like bugs in fruits and treifos and killing lice on shabbos, chazal used contemporary knowledge and that is what is binding even today.

    #865882
    longarekel
    Member

    gubbish: if ravina/rav ashi decided to include something in the gemara, it is kadosh. period.

    #865883
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    yitayningwut: Possibly.

    longarekel: Define kadosh.

    #865884
    gubbish
    Participant

    why? (this is especially applicable to those rationalists with the belief that the gemara could be misinformed on certain issues, but even according to non-rationalists, it is still a question)

    #865885
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Itche – The one about mysticism.

    #865886
    Kozov
    Member

    Shu”t Tzafnas Paneach Chelek 1 S 14: “The remedies mentioned in the Gemara (though nowadays not applicable) are a part of the Torah Shebal peh.”

    As opposed to his medical books (you could read them in the bathroom), the specific instructions in Hilchos Deios Ch. 4 come from the Gemara (migdal oz, malbim, hagahos bnei binyomin, tzaf”p).

    (But thats besides the point because even if not it still is bigeder Torah that you can’t read in the bathroom. See Lechem Mishna Hilchos Talmud Torah 4:1 and the end of the Rambam’s hakdomo.)

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