Is it mutar to be an organ donor?

Zahavasdad:

I have noted that your comments in this thread and on other threads show a gross misunderstanding of what is commonly referred to as the 5th cheilek of Shulchan Oruch.

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And of course he has a clear understanding of the other four, and a very high level of English writing and grammar :).

Sam: My rebbeim are not poskim–they do not have personal opinions on this that I am particularly concerned for. I do follow them regarding which poskim they rely on in a machlokes, though.

I know absolutely nothing about the halachic aspects of this shaila. But I’m sure you can find the arguments in modern seforim, or by speaking in learning with a few poskim.

I’m a bit confused now, though. Are you saying now that you don’t know the reasons they say? Does that conflict with your taking such a strong stance on this as to think they are all in clear error?

zehavasdad you say”There are plenty of poseks who hold the internet is traif”

Realiy check: yes, unfiltered internet users can and unfortunately often do accesss pictures and articles that one is not allowed to view. Do you deny this? Are you saying these things are kosher?

Are you orthodox? Do you have a rabbi? Doesn’t sound like it.

Just to correct a comment by nisht…..(cant spell his name): There IS a MAJOR diffence about the length of life left as far as “retzicha’ goes. If one kills a ‘treifa” one will not be convicted of “retzicha”. And someone who is clinically dead is certainly a ‘treifa” that will not live a year. This is not to say that one can hasten death ,clearly, you are not allowed to do that. However, you cannot equate “jaharog ve’al jeavior’ to the last minutes of a living person.

Hello: I did not speak to Poskim in E”Y. If those are the facts in Israel, then those are the facts. They are certainly not the facts in America and my argument still stands here.

Berlin: Brain death is not necessarily a Treifah. You would still need a hole in one of the places that makes a Treifah. Also, killing a Treifah is murder. You’re just not Chayav Misah if you do it. It’s still Retzicha.

Sam: But your entire rant against the Gedolei HaPoskim was based on Pikuach Nefesh and the unwillingness of European countries to send organs “any Posek who refuses to let people do this is Machshil es Harabbim and Gorem Sakanas Nefashos for many Jews, especially those in Eretz Yisrael where European countries won’t send organs” and “I just feel (very, very, strongly) that they have missed the point, are not completely aware of the physical facts, and have therefore created a situation where Israel is denied organs to save Jewish lives because too many Jews won’t be organ donors”.

Now you are admitting that you had no idea what you were talking about and YOU are the one who is unaware of the facts!!! Does that trouble you???

Sam2 -“They are certainly not the facts in America and my argument still stands here.”

Are you kidding? There is No Pickuach Nefesh here. Most people are Goyim. Did you ever here a Din of Rov? So to say that you’re Mechuyav to donate organs here is Not reality acc. to Halacha.

And there is no Eivah since we don’t donate organs to anyone!

And btw, your ignorant of the facts in this country too. A lot of organ harvesting is done when the person still has a pulse, but just is brain dead! Just because a portion is done after death -I’m pretty sure this isn’t even most.

Hello: My point was that there is a perception that Jews won’t donate organs for religious reasons and therefore many people would be unwilling to donate organs to Jews. That is a true Pikuach Nefesh, whether or not someone’s organs personally go to Jews. Nivul Hameis is easily pushed off Mishum Eivah. Murder is not. Thus, I would never say to take an organ from a person with a heartbeat (even though I think that those who say that brain-stem death is death have much to rely on, I agree that those who define death by a heartbeat also have much to rely on) if that person holds it is murder. Taking organs after cessation of a heartbeat is perfectly okay though, and Eivah should push off Nivul Hameis.

Health: You saying that logically Eivah shouldn’t apply doesn’t make it so. Look at the current attitudes towards Jews in Europe and Israel in general on organ donations and then tell me that there is no Eivah there. Whether or not we can give a good logical argument to remove Eivah doesn’t change the fact that people will have emotional responses that could lead to Jewish deaths. The Poskim give the perfect logic that we can say to non-Jews that we are only Mechalel Shabbos for those who worship Shabbos. And yet, the Chassam Sofer published his famous T’shuvah Mishum Eivah. And once again, just because a lot is done when the person has a pulse doesn’t meant that you can’t sign a card saying that organs can only be harvested after the heart has stopped beating.

Sam2- i didnt read all the arguments against you but ill just say that you “feeling” all the gedolim/poskim have erred, and the fact that your argument is clearly an emotional one discredits you entirely. Not only in this shmooze, but any other. Cuz anytime you state what you think the halachah is, every other poster here is gonna go “hmm, wheres this guy coming from….” . I think you should just give it up.

Sam: I still must disagree with you from both a Halachic and practical perspective.

Furthermore, your definition of Eiva is excessively broad. All of the cases mentioned in Shas and Poskim are where the Yid is refusing to assist a Goy purely due to the fact that he is not Jewish. We only find concern of Eiva when confronted with this blatant discrimination; however, here we are not suggesting that one donate his organs to Jews and not Goyim. When a Jew declines to donate his organs in general to anyone for religious reasons, there is no indication that a concern of Eiva exists. In fact, Rashi Bava Metzia 32b s.v. ?? ???? ??? ???????? clearly states that when one can explain that he cannot assist the non-Jew to load his donkey with Yayin Nesech for religious reasons, Eiva no longer applies. This is cited in the Beis Yosef CM 272.

In fact, it is clear from the Gemara Avoda Zara 26a and Shulchan Aruch OC 330:2 that one may even discriminate between Jews and non-Jews when a credible excuse is given.

Additionally, we only find Eiva when a Yid refuses a direct request for assistance. Merely failing to sign an organ donor card is not comparable.

On the practical angle, I have not seen an organ donor card that allows one to specify that one ONLY wishes to donate after cardiac death. Most do not differentiate at all, and once one has signed there is no guarantee that they will not murder the brain-dead signatory to use his organs.

In fact, the secular world considers brain death the more reliable indicator of the cessation of life. Many states and hospitals do not accept cardiac death from their moral perspective and will refuse to remove organs from a patient who has suffered cardiac arrest. They would understand any stipulation of cardiac death in a living will as including EVEN an individual who has merely undergone cardiac death, and not as excluding a brain dead person.

By way of illustration, less than 5% of deaths are brain deaths, but they comprise 92% of organ donations. Most US hospitals cannot, or will not, accept organs from one who has suffered cardiac death. They will ONLY accept organs from a brain dead, but Halachically alive, patient.

In conclusion, anyone who signs consent to donate his organs is asking to be murdered, and there is no Heter due to Eiva even when truly dead.

Brain death is an invention of the docotors as a way of permitting transplants. At the time the first transpants were performed Rav Moshe wrote that taking a heart is murder

??”? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ??????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???, ??????? ????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?? ?? ?”? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ????, ??? ?? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??

any letter implying a retraction has never been understood that way by his sons.or by the leading poskim

???? ??”? ???? ???? ????? (? – ?) ???? ?? ???? ??”? “??? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??”? ??? ??”? ???? ??”?, ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????. ?? ????”? ??? ???? ?? “??? ????? ?????” ?”?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????”, ?”? ?????? ??? ???????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?? ??????? ?????? “????? ???? ????? ?????? ??????”, ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???”? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??????? ?? ???? ?? ????, ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ??????, ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???????”.

Sam: “we allow people to be Mechalel Shabbos Mishum Eivah, even in cases where the Poskim mention possible good excuses that can be given”

Can you bring a source for this statement that contradicts Mishna Berura and other sources that I cited?

“And I already amended to say that I only did this in America, not Israel”

You ammended it only after your tirade against “this is Machshil es Harabbim and Gorem Sakanas Nefashos for many Jews, especially those in Eretz Yisrael”. You are not being honest to claim “so I didn’t accuse the Poskim in Israel of anything”

Rav Moshe did not allow receiving heart transplates or even open heart surgery, he considered doctors who performed the transplants to be committing murder.

Since open heart surgery and heart transplants require the stoppage of a heart beating (They use some heart machine)

Zahavasdad, that is a point I have been making for a while. People who undergo bypass surgery where heartbeat and respiration have been stopped or people who go into cardiac arrest and have to be resuscitated are halachicly dead during that period and all halachos pertaining thereto apply. Is wife becomes an almonah and is free to marry. His sons become his heirs and he no longer owns any property.

I one is scheduled for heart surgery one should take halachic action to secure his property and must re-marry his wife upon his recovery.

P.S. If you want to say that such folks aren’t really dead, please explain why not. It appears to me that we can be mechayei meisim under these certain limited circumstances. that is one of the conditions of b’tzelem Elokim. Of course, HKBH has unlimited ability to be mechayei meisim.

Sam2 -“(at least in the places that I asked lawyers and doctors about) to have a card that says that organs can only be taken after cardiac death. And I already amended to say that I only did this in America,”

Knowing a lot about law, but even more about medicine -I’m sorry to say -I think you were duped by this/these guy(s). So let’s say your card says only after cessation of the heart -what are the consequences if they don’t listen? Do you think the Gov. would consider this murder or any of the lower classifications such as manslaughter? Of course not! Do they get jail time? I highly doubt it. It’s probably only a tort and how are you going to prove they took it before heart death? From people in the room testifying against them when they are the only people in the room? So having such a card in reality means absolutely nothing!

It’s even possible that unscrupulous people would try and take organs from non-organ donors, but this is very unlikely because in this case the Gov. would probably come down very hard.

If you hold that the death criteria acc. to Halacha is heart and/or breathing stoppage -there is no Mokom whatsoever to Meikel to be an organ donor. The fact that you keep making up these scenarios to fit your Shiita is very problematic!

I’m sorry to say Sam, but your posts here are bordering on Megaleh Ponim B’torah Shelo K’halacha!

RK – The Poskim have said since it’s common to come back after cardiac arrest and/or being put on a by-pass machine – during that time you aren’t considered dead. If they don’t attempt to resuscitate you -then death is at the time of stoppage. If they do -then death is at the time they call the code (resuscitation).

PBA and Sam: Outside Israel (ie in the US) there is no statistics or record keeping of donors vs. non-donors based on religion. So no one would be the wiser if we are on donors lists in Chutz. And certainly no one would retaliate.

Hello: I was unaware of that Mishnah Berurah. Rav Schachter always quotes that Chassam Sofer Lehalachah. We see that the Eivah exists and that it comes from the perception that Jews refuse to donate organs to save lives. Anything we can do to change that perception helps. Besides, if the Chareidi population of E”Y would be willing to be post-cardiac (and only post-cardiac) death organ donors then I guarantee you that the Israeli doctors would start using their organs. They have no other choice. So even if the Metzius in E”Y is as mentioned above, it could very easily be changed, especially if the Poskim would say that post-cardiac death harvesting is allowed.

And just as an amazing Mar’eh Makom, see the Ben Yehoyadah on Pesaching 49b, I think.

So I started to get a little curios about this, so I went to the Halachic organ people’s website.

So they have a video of Rav Dovid Feinstien which they label as him “encouraging” organ donation. So if you watch the video, you see that he says not to. He says that if there is a person in front of you who will get the heart, and the patient is “dead” which he defines as no longer breathing, then you should give it. But that you shouldn’t put the heart into the organ pool.

OK, so you vehemently accused the Gedolei HaPoskim of recklessly endangering Jewish lives due to ignorance, while you were personally uninformed regarding both the Metzius and the Halacha.

We certainly know that anti-Semitism exists, but where do you see that an Eiva that leads to Sakana is caused by lack of Jewish organ donors??? That is the threshold cited by the Chasam Sofer; his Heter is more accurately termed Sakana than Eiva. Anti-Semitism long preceded organ transplants, and no one permitted Issurim due to a vague resentment.

Are you suggesting that the Arabs would cease their terrorist attacks and skin-heads would leave us alone if we merely started donating organs??? If you can prove that, I will grant you that the Chasam Sofer would likely permit organ donation after cardiac death.

Reb Moshe OC 4:79 also favors the Chasam Sofer over the Mishna Berura; however, he interprets it as I did to require a concrete concern of Sakana.

Sam: I dont know about Israel, but ANYWHERE outside Israel JEWS are NOT discriminated against as a group regardless of how low their donor rates are. In fact, no one even knows what the Jewish rate is, since stats and records are not kept by religion. So there is NO EIVA.

PBA -“So basically you are killing him.

It seems that this is muttar even according to the rov poskim who say to not donate. I don’t exactly know why.”

I already posted why -above.

Ain Sholiach L’dvar Aveira!

gregaaron -“@Health:

Something becomes ???? because of ??? ???? ???? ?????? Seriously? Isn’t there a concept called ???? ???.”

Lifnei Ever is only for a Yid, regarding the advice part. To be Oiver for a Goy this Issur -you need a Maaseh. Like selling them weapons. (The Chinuch) Most people in the world are Goyim. This would include transplant teams.

“Also, someone mentioned earlier that there is a difference in Halacha with regard to a ????? – unless I am very mistaken, all that means is that if one were to kill him this person would not be subject to ???? ?”?; I would be very surprised to hear that doing so is actually allowed.”

It’s not, but Ain Sholiach L’dvar Aveira.

“and that they think that all Jews refuse to donate organs. That’s the Eivah”

Yes, and based on the responses posted here, it would appear that the goyim are correct, especially for today’s yeshiveshe types.

The same would apply to other civic duties, i.e., Jews joining the military; serving on jury panels; giving to secular charities; voting; etc.