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I am a proud card carrying member of HOD (Halachic Organ Donation) as well as a proud living kidney donor. To all of you who are against organ donation, be true to yourselves, if a loved one was in need of an organ donation would you not accept it?
To all of you who are against organ donation, be true to yourselves, if a loved one was in need of an organ donation would you not accept it?
What kind of question is that? If I needed an organ, I would follow the halacha there also. Whatever the halacha is. (I’m pretty sure most poskim hold you can accept an organ, but I don’t know that.)
And if you think I would take the organ even if it was against halacha, does that mean I should also break halacha now?
Look, if your rav says it is muttar, I commend you for following him and doing it. I am aware of very learned poskim who do hold it is muttar. But I cannot understand why you think it is wrong for me to follow the majority of poskim–including my poskim–who say it is assur. You really should have a little more respect for other people, and their way of life (and death).
PBA: Yeah, but what if their way of life comes at the cost of my life? That’s what I strongly disagree with. It’s okay for you to say that you’ll follow your Poskim and Hashem will take care of you. But about when you following your Poskim is taking away from someone else?
Would you accept a Heart?
There is a Halachic opinion that you are not dead unless your heart stops beating (as opposed to Brain death) and if a Heart is removed from someone you are actually killing someone .
PBA: Yeah, but what if their way of life comes at the cost of my life? That’s what I strongly disagree with. It’s okay for you to say that you’ll follow your Poskim and Hashem will take care of you. But about when you following your Poskim is taking away from someone else?
??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??
I’d like you to answer that question, please. What do you think I would answer.
because we believe in techias hamesim and how will your body dig itselg out (burry with a branch in hand to dig our way out) if you are missing body parts
if for whatever reason ch”v somebody looses a leg or st they burry it i guess so the person will have it after techias hamesim
Somehow, I suspect that if HKBH can resurrect the dead, and create whole bodies out of dust (which He’ll have to do, since most dead bodies have long since decomposed to nothing), He’ll have no trouble adding in a missing organ where the person does not have it.
The Wolf
PBA: You would obviously say that Hashem will take care of them. But I think you’re wrong (not that Hashem won’t take care of them; just that the match who refuses to donate organs is actively using his Bechirah to prevent Hashem’s chosen way of saving this person’s life.
Nope. That isn’t my answer. Say better.
What would you say if you were in my position?
PBA: Yeah, but what if their way of life comes at the cost of my life?
OK, Sam, what would you do in the following case: a rasha tells you that if you don’t bow down to avodah zarah, he will kill me. Do you bow down to an idol to save my life?
I would have expected Poppa to reply something along the lines that organ donation is not necessary since the poskim have already ruled that it is prohibited to use one in shul, even during the week because of chukas hagoyim. Now if one was considering a donation of chumashim….
I would have expected Poppa to reply something along the lines that organ donation is not necessary since the poskim have already ruled that it is prohibited to use one in shul, even during the week because of chukas hagoyim. Now if one was considering a donation of chumashim….
TITCR
(This is the credited response)
“Hashem also has enough ability to heal them outright, and doesn’t do so.
My point was that if we aren’t suppose to donate organs, then we can safely assume that Hashem isn’t going to cause more of us to die for that. We can safely assume Hashem runs the world and can make those who He wants to live, live; and those who He wants to die, die; regardless of whether we decide to donate organs.”
There already exists a religion with that philosophy; Seventh Day Adventists.
Also, a recent g’mara discusses the argument you pose, but in a different manner; a ben nachor posed an argument against yiddishkeit: Hashem made people poor so He, therefore, does not want people to give charity to help out the poor. Sounds very much like your shita.
And if a yid can’t give an organ to a yid, as you say; then a yid can’t take from a yid. So I feek feel sorry if c’v you will need an organ and only a yid’s is available. But then, maybe you’ll rely on Rav Moshe.
cherrybim: You misunderstood my argument.
You thought I meant that we should not pragmatic concerns into account when determining halacha. That is of course incorrect, the halacha is full of examples where we are meikel for poor people, and where things are permitted to save a life, or for sick people to feel more comfortable.
I actually meant, that once we determine halacha including taking all the considerations into account that we can then rest assured that Hashem will not “punish” us for keeping his Torah, and will arrange the world in the way that is for our best.
I presume you do not disagree with that. But if you do, tell us about it.
cherrybim -Cherry Bum- Bim, BUM, Bim, bum.
“There already exists a religion with that philosophy; Seventh Day Adventists.”
How do you know? Are you a member?
Of course you can take the organ even if if it comes from a Jew. They first harvest the organs -then they give it out. Even if it didn’t work this way and they waited for you to tell them -Go get it -it would still me Mutter to take it because Ain Shaliach L’dvar Aveira.
Sam2 -“Organ donations after death should be a Chiyuv because of Pikuach Nefesh.”
I could only see this in a place where there are mostly Jews. I don’t even know if this applies in Israel! (That it’s mostly Jews.)
“And in a case where there is no Jew in need of a kidney or lung, it is still a Chiyuv of Pikuach Nefesh Mishum Eivah.”
There is No Eivah because we don’t donate to Jews or anyone else.
“Even now, many countries won’t send organs to Israel because too many Jews aren’t donors. It’s a complete Pikuach Nefesh. Hands down.”
I never did an assessment -why there aren’t enough organs in Israel, but let’s say for argument sake you’re right -I have a simple solution for them. – Instead of taking all these terrorists and locking them up – how about instituing the death penalty?
If you did that -there would be more than enough organs to go around! Plus, you could lower the taxes for the Israeli public.
It’s funny, I haven’t heard one lib complain how the Israeli gov. is wasting tax money on terrorists, but they don’t stop complaining about some of the Jews in Kollel whom take $ from the gov.!
PBA: Yeah, but what if their way of life comes at the cost of my life? That’s what I strongly disagree with. It’s okay for you to say that you’ll follow your Poskim and Hashem will take care of you. But about when you following your Poskim is taking away from someone else?
Ok Sam, since you won’t say it, I’ll say it. I assume you did think of this.
My poskim (rov poskim) take that into account also, that I am hurting you by withholding my organs from you. And they still said it is assur. I am not aware that they say it is assur only because it goes to non jews–observe that they say it is assur even in Israel!
I listen to the poskim unless they are in obvious error, like yeravam ben nevat telling us to worship idols. I don’t think you would say this is that case.
PBA: That’s exactly what I’m saying in this case. It’s the only case where I will argue against a majority of contemporary Poskim, but this is a fight that I will keep up until I am given a T’shuvah Nitzchis or others agree to me.
To All:
Taking an organ post facto now that it has already been removed (correctly or not) is different than deciding to remove organs. Once it is removed, clearly it should not go to waste. Should it be removed? That is a different question.
I see. And it is impossible for me to dispute that, since I can’t even say that you don’t know nearly enough to argue, because the whole premise of your position is that it is so simple that anyone could argue–like yeravam ben nevat.
Sure, but anyone can say that about any halacha. You could, for example, say that you are going to go worship idols, and that the poskim are clearly in error and that the argument is so simple anyone can see it.
So, since I don’t see it as so simple, I’m going to think that you’re the fool.
And I suppose you think there is a taaina on me, because the argument is so simple that I shouldn’t be listening to poskim on it either.
That’s ok. I think you’re acting like a child. Nobody who agrees with about the halacha, would say what you are saying. None of the rabbonim behind the halachic organ donation say what you are saying–that the other poskim are in clear error like yeravam ben nevat and should not be followed. You are truly one person in the entire klal yisroel who is saying it.
Well, either everyone is wrong, or you are wrong. And I’m part of everyone, so I have my opinions on that.
Sam,
You haven’t answered my question. And this is really what it comes down to; theres a halachic definition of pikuach nefesh, which you are not qualified to offer. There are also limitations to the heter of pikuach nefesh, which again, you are unqualified to define.
Your insistence that our gedolei haposkim are wrong is either a horribly misguided limitation on the power of halacha to guide our lives, or an extreme ga’avah which allows you to think that you are better equipped to make halachic decisions than talmidei chachamim who have spent decades poring over Sha”s and Shulchan Aruch with tremendous intensity and depth.
SAM2 BY YOU OWN ADMISSION YOU ARGUING AGAINST THE MAJORITY OF POSKIM. I THINK THE HALACHA IS CLEAR THAT NOBODY SHOULD LISTEN TO YOU.
There are plenty of Poskim who hold it was OK.
I will say this much
If Ch”V someone came to you personally while your close family member was brain dead and said that you could save their mother of 8 kids who was very very sick. I would certainly save that mother of 8
I know I would take the Kula and if I did the wrong thing, I will live with it
Am I telling anyone to listen to me here? I made my posts very clearly. I have my opinion and from my first post here I made it clear that I was arguing with many Poskim. I am voicing my (very strong, in this case) opinion and I clearly expect that no one in an anonymous chat room would listen to me Lema’aseh.
PBA: That’s fine. Like I said, I understand that I am very much on my own in this. I am trying to change that fact, but the fact is that for now that’s how it is.
I will say this much
If Ch”V someone came to you personally while your close family member was brain dead and said that you could save their mother of 8 kids who was very very sick.
Zdad: I kind of resent your implications. I do believe in Judaism, and I do have moral convictions. And I do hard things sometimes because of them.
You seem to assume that whenever there is a hard decision to make, we will always choose the easier way. That simply is not the case- historically, or in the present- and it is quite bizarre that you assume that.
(I’m debating whether to elaborate about a certain snow shoveling thread.)
PBA.
Will you accept there is more than one opinion on the issue?
And the opinions are opposite of each other
Certainly I accept that there are two opinions on this. I stated that outright in the first post I made in this thread.
To the contrary, it is Sam2 who insists that all other opinions but his are illegitimate, and you who insist that all other opinions but yours are based on self interest.
Do you accept that there are differing opinions on this?
I accept there are more than one opinions on this.
Given the reprocussions of taking the more stringent opinions like other countries refusing to give organs to Israelis and maybe that mother of 8 would die without the organ, I choose to accept more lenient opinions and do feel the stringent opinions are wrong (You can certainly disagree with this statement) I am willing to live with the reprocussions if I followed a Kula.
I see. So you are saying you choose between opinions on your own, based on your self interest.
Well, I can categorically state that nobody holds you are allowed to do that. None of the poskim you are relying on would say you are allowed to do that. Even Sam2 doesn’t say you are allowed to do that!
But, it doesn’t bother me very much that you do that. As long as you acknowledge that I am not bad for following the halachic approach, which is to follow ones poskim and the halacha.
PBA
That is not exactly true
Ive even heard that Rav Shlomo Auerbach when it came to giving poskim on occasion did “shop for Kula’s” when he knew a certain answer was needed
What that means is, When he felt he needed a Kula , he asked someone whom he thought would poskin that way. He did not ask someone whom he felt gave a chumra answer because if he did he would have to follow it.
No, it is exactly true.
A posek can take pragmatic concerns into account when deciding halacha, as is stated many times in the shulchan aruch and other rishonim and acharonim.
A person cannot decide to shop between different poskim who have already taken that into account, for pragmatic reasons.
We will sometimes be meikel on kashrus for a poor person. But if a poor person asks a shaila and is told assur, he cannot go to another posek and ask again-just because he is poor.
None of us (I am making an assumption here) asked any posek if we could be a donor
Since none of us asked we do not have to follow an opinion , just because a certain rav has an opinion.
The Satmar Rav holds that the state of Israel is traif, I do not have to follow his opinion.
There are plenty of poseks who hold the internet is traif, there are plenty who hold speaking English is assur (or should be minimized)
Since I assume you never asked the Shaila you can speak english and use the internet.
SAM2 BY YOU OWN ADMISSION YOU ARGUING AGAINST THE MAJORITY OF POSKIM. I THINK THE HALACHA IS CLEAR THAT NOBODY SHOULD LISTEN TO YOU.
AND BECAUSE I TYPED IT IN ALL CAPS, IT’S EVEN MORE TRUE. 🙂
The Wolf
Oh, I follow my rebbeim on this. They say that one should not be an organ donor, and follow the poskim who say it is assur and yeihareig v’al yaavor.
I didn’t ask my rebbeim this question personally, but their opinion on it is public and well known in my yeshiva.
You never know if you asked them a personal Shailia if they would give a different opinion.
I do know sometimes poseks will give different psaks to different people.
It very could be they have a public general opinion, but if there is a specific Shalia they might hold differently.
And I give the example again if you have a family member C’V who is brain dead and there is a mother of 8 who needs the heart and the heart is given to that woman.
I can’t imagine why this psak would be different for different people. When I go to the DMV and am asked to sign the back of my license, my situation is no different than anyone else’s.
And of course, if a relative was brain dead and the doctors were asking about pulling the plug, and about donating the organs, I would ask the shaila. Never hurts to ask a shaila. I’m not opposed to donating organs in theory- just in halacha.
I do know sometimes poseks will give different psaks to different people.”
True, because even though a shailah might appear to be the same shailah, it is still different for the other person.
zahavasdad -“And I give the example again if you have a family member C’V who is brain dead and there is a mother of 8 who needs the heart and the heart is given to that woman.”
If it was me since they (family of mother of 8) believe in organ donation -I’d say let her donate her brain to my family member who is brain dead. Who says her blood is better than s/o elses?
Libs do this all the time -if they don’t like something – like Halacha or a Psak -they try to push their way on you using emotions. I don’t fall for these tricks, esp. in this case where you can wait until after the brain dead guy actually dies and then donate the heart. (If you hold organ donation is Mutter after death.)
zahavasdad: if you desperately needed an organ transplant, would you murder a random individual on the street to steal his organ???
Murder is murder, regardless of how pitiful the person who may benefit from it. The Torah forbids killing one person to save another.
Organ donation is not murder
Only Some poskim hold its murder and its mainly for heart transplant.
lesschumras: “Organ donation is not murder”
when the donor is only brain dead, as in zahava’s theoretical case and 90% of donations in the US, according to most Poskim it is outright murder.
Zahava: Your “kula” for one person is at the expense of someone else’s life. and it is MOST Poskim, not “some”, and if they are only brain dead it is irrelevant which organ is donated.
@Hello99 MOST Poskim also ban the internet, only some permit it and only under limited conditions
@Hello99 MOST Poskim also ban the internet, only some permit it and only under limited conditions
1) Do you have a source for that?
2) You’re being disingenuous. If his posek tells him it’s okay, he’ll follow his posek. You are saying, though, that people should not follow their posek when it comes to organ donation.
3) How do you know that he isn’t using it under “limited conditions”?
4) Your ad hominum attack would seem to indicate that you can’t argue the actual issue.
Ask any Godol if the internet is OK
The only one that I know of that permits it is Rav Shecter and then ONLY if someone else is in the room.
The only point I am making is sometimes people do pick and choose .
And I doubt he did ask his Posek about organ donation. I dont think anyone here actually asked and asked for a specific situation (as opposed to a general Shaila)
And I doubt he did ask his Posek about organ donation. I dont think anyone here actually asked and asked for a specific situation (as opposed to a general Shaila)
zdad: your posts are getting stranger.
Let me posit this: There are no specific situations in organ donation. One does not get to choose who their organs will go to after death. The shaila is precisely the same for everyone: Should you sign the blasted back of your blazing license?
DY – +1
Zahavasdad:
I have noted that your comments in this thread and on other threads show a gross misunderstanding of what is commonly referred to as the 5th cheilek of Shulchan Oruch.
Zahavasdad,
If PBA were in need of a heart transplant, by your thought process he would be entirely within the right to take insist that a doctor harvest yours. Althoigh you are alive, your brain function seems to be less than his and as such he would be able to kill you for it.
Which is clearly not the halacha. Even if he wanted to be meikil.
The classic case of Yehoreg va’al yavor is exactly in these cases. Can you kill someone to save your life. Can you kill someone by harvesting their organs (even if it is not a vital organ, it is clear that they are actually finalizing the death process by harvesting the organs) to use for yourself.
It is very clear that the amount of life a person has left is not a determinent factor in what is or is not retzicha. When they take organs from a person who is not halachically dead, they are killing him. It makes no difference is one person is a mother of eight and the other is unfortunaltely a vegetable.
Where the organ comes from makes a difference, do not try to use that argument as well as what to do once the organ has been harvested.
nishtdayngesheft: I don’t think it was necessary to get personal.
Ask any Godol if the internet is OK
I did (a few years ago). He acknowledged that it’s very dangerous but didn’t feel that it could be completely assered because people need it for parnassah.
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