- This topic has 17 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 10 months, 2 weeks ago by .
-
Posts
-
Obviously it is prohibited to wish a goy even a “Happy Holiday” on kratsmich (let alone actually use the name of their avoda zora holiday), but does the same prohibition apply to the gentile New Year holiday and other non-Jewish holidays?
If so, is the prohibition only against saying Happy New Year or is even wishing a Happy Holiday prohibited?
What is so “Obvious”?
When I worked in a kitchen under the Hashgacha of a major respected Kashrus org the Ruv overseeing the site (not a Mashgiach at the location but directing the Mashgiachs) brought in a cake a day or two before Xmas from a Kosher bakery.. It was a white iced cake with red lettering that said Merry Christmas.I can’t tell if it’s assur or mutar, but even if it’s mutar, why would you want to?
if you pay taxes according to goyishe calendar, you can say ”Happy New Year” You can be thankful for the country to keep a calendar in general that allows orderly business activity and elections. Especially for keeping a week in their calendar and even making shabbos a non-working day.
It is not a religiously significant day to any goy. Why make trouble for yourself?
What Issue is there to say it even to a Jew?
I have a secret for you.
January 1 has NOTHING to do with any modern religion.
It is from Roman times.
Ancient Roman calendar, representing the winter solstice. (Before Gregory, 450 years ago, jan 1 was the winter solstice).
Just like midnight starts the new day for them, so too, the winter solstice, comparable to the yearly midnight, is the when the year starts.
By the way, December 25, or January 6, has nothing to do with any modern religion either, but that us a whole ‘nother story.It was actually a day of death destruction of jews in ‘honor’ of the god january is named after. See Rabbi L. Keleman’s lecture on TorahAnytime
On the topic of January, the Yerushalmi in AZ, first Mishna, says a possible story about why they named it January.
ארבעה ראשי שנים הם
תנא ושייר
מאי שייר דהאי שייר?
Jan 1 is a rosh hashana for taxes and the reason it’s not listed is because תלמידי חכמים don’t pay taxes
It’s very much of religious significance to the goyim. The current “secular” calendar was actually set up by the Catholic church. The different versions are named for popes.
The other issue lost to most these days is if you count according to Halacha Jan 1st is 8 days after Dec 25. Some Xtian denominations on Jan 1st celebrate the “Feast of the circumcision of J*s*s”
Great halachic overview regarding wishes on Kratzmach and New Years here:
https://shulchanaruchharav. com/halacha/may-one-wish-holiday-greetings-to-gentiles-merry-chris-mass-happy-holidays/
It was actually a day of death destruction of jews in ‘honor’ of the god january is named after. See Rabbi L. Keleman’s lecture on TorahAnytime
I was gonna point this out.
It’s a shiur worth listening to
coffee, T Ch pay taxes that are user fees for services they use. They also are known for following dina dmalhuta
pekak, if goyim abandon az, it has no significance. Jan 1 is not a religious holiday anymore as far as I knowMenachem, your ref is interesting but most of the material appears to be not Alter Rebbe, but a self-described shochet, posek, and more. Story of Berdichiver and L Rebbe wishing Yidden new year is interesting, do you know more of their motivation?
If you work in a secular organization with goyim, it makes sense to offer a simple “best wishes for the new year” in emails and telephone conversations to clients or even to fellow workers. In my frame of reference, such polite comments have zero religious significance and are not taken as such by the recipient
Not only may one not wish a person merry kratzmach, as it is mechazel yidei ovrei aveirah, there are clear mishnayos, gemara and shu”a about doing things that make goyim happy before their holidays, so they shouldn’t thank their god. I don’t remember off hand to what degree these apply to christian holidays, but extending a greeting which acknowledges a holiday which is at the very least avodah zara for us – to the point of being yehereg velo yaavor – is very simple.
Were it not for the fact that an anonymous post online is not aidus, I’d very much like to know the identity of the “rav” who did this; it’s disqualifying just as any other aveirah. And the worst part is how it leads other jews to follow his example.
Regardless of how goyim today view the new year, it was founded on the basis of religion. Just as we cannot acknowledge Halloween, we are prohibited from acknowledging new years.
Aaq,
You know I was referring to income tax
Based on the rema (YD 148:12) it seems that there is no issue. I would venture to say that you can probably say a generic “happy holiday “ even around Xmas time
The standard given is aivah/hate with most of the restrictions mentioned in the gemarah removed bc what the goyim practice now is not the avodah zarah meant in the gemarah.
The only real restriction still in effect seems to be going into their houses on the day of their holiday and using the word shalom (since it’s Hashems name)
The kitzur adds more things like supplying them material to help build a church
As for the link above. I can’t open it with my filter and there is no siman 148 in the SA Harav (what is the summary?)
Btw. Even holiday parties are mentioned as being mutar (but a baal nefesh should attempt to not go)Why is this year called 2024? What exactly happened 2024 years ago?
The birth of Yeshu.
Most yidden who work in secular/professional firms have no difficulty navigating the daily encounters with non-Jewish colleagues in a friendly and respectful way including a nod to have a happy holiday or New Years or whatever. We are not engaging in avodah zorah or acknowledging the legitimacy of others’ beliefs. Just being civil in the same way my colleagues always offer their best wishes to their Jewish colleagues around Rosh Hashanah etc.
most of the material appears to be not Alter Rebbe
As for the link above. I can’t open it with my filter and there is no siman 148 in the SA Harav (what is the summary?)
The link is a bit misleading, I should have clarified:
Shulchanaruchharav. com is a website with thousands of halacha articles on various subjects, not necessarily based on Shulchan Aruch Harav.This is what it says there (there are also lengthy references in the footnotes which I didn’t bring):
May one wish a merry Chris-mas, or happy holidays, to a gentile acquaintance or neighbor?
Merry chris-mass:[6] The term Chris-mas is not to be mentioned, due to the prohibition against mentioning the name of idols.
Other greetings: If the gentile does not believe in the religious connotations behind the holiday, then there is no prohibition to mention to him “Happy Holidays.”[7] If, however, the gentile believes in the idolatry related content behind Christmas, seemingly, one may only do so in a pressing situation, to avoid enmity.[8] Certainly one should not go out of one’s way to greet him and send him Holiday wishes, such as through social media, unless lack of doing so will cause enmity. In all cases that one meets a gentile acquaintance outside who is a practicing Christian, he is to greet him with a low voice, as stated above.
May one wish others a happy New Years on the 1st of January?[9]
There is no prohibition involved in wishing a happy New Years to a gentile who does not affiliate the day with any Christian connotations or worship of a deity.[10] One is to avoid wishing a happy New Years to a practicing Christian [particularly Catholics, and Lutherans] who believes in the Christian doctrine behind the New Year’s Holiday.[11] However, even in such a case, one may do so in a pressing situation, in order to avoid causing enmity and anti-Semitism.[12] Certainly one should not go out of one’s way to greet him and send him Holiday wishes, such as through social media, unless lack of doing so will cause enmity. In all cases that one meets a gentile acquaintance outside who is a practicing Christian and believes in the holiday of New Years, he is to greet him with a low voice, as stated above. [In general, it is not customary of Jews to wish other Jews a Happy new year on the first of January.[13] However, it is related, that Rebbe Levi Yitzchak of Berditchiv would wish others a Happy new year on the 1st of January. Likewise, the Rebbe once wished a Chassid a happy new years on the morning of January first, in continuation of the tradition from Rebbe Levi Yitzchak.[14] This is based on the verse in psalms 87:6 ““Hashem Yispor Bichsov Amim..”]
Story of Berdichiver and L Rebbe wishing Yidden new year is interesting, do you know more of their motivation?
Not exactly sure.
Though I feel it’s necessary to point out an incident pointing in the other direction:Someone once ended a December letter with “We hope that the coming year will be a successful and fruitful one!”
The Rebbe circled “coming year” and wrote (you can find a picture in his handwriting online):
!?
התחיל כבר בר”הCatlover, even those who believe in him realize that he wasn’t born 2024 years ago. The calendar was established a while afterwards when he was deified. The more knowledgeable of his religion know that he wasn’t born in December.
1. IF a Jewish boy is born on Dec. 25, his bris would be on Jan. 1, and the goyim hold that someone important to them was a Jewish boy born on Dec. 25. Of course, even according to their scholars, “Dec. 25” is a myth based on a Roman holiday (Saturnalia).
2. For a long time the “new year” in the Christian calendar began on March 25 (at least in English speaking countries), and the change to Jan. 1 was not motivated by religion but by a desire to standardize calendars.
Catlover613: But if the “civil year” is based on an myth that is clearly avodah zarah, would we be allowed to use it. I suggest the best way to regard it is that the Christians decided that dating things from the regnal years of kings, or the founding of the City of Rome (also a myth) as the Romans did, was “awkward” so they picked an arbitrary date. We know it was arbitrary since according to the Christian myths, you know who was born during the reign of Herod (who considered himself “Great” -no one else did), and died in 4 B.C.E. Since it is an arbitrary choice of a base date, there is no reason to hold it is avodah zarah, and in fact Yidden have used it since the Christians switched in the middle ages.
> Regardless of how goyim today view the new year,
seems that this is a difference of opinion on facts, not halocha. My reading is that most of Europe took on Jan 1 in 16th century and later to unify calendars – and taxes – with no religious significance. Maybe even opposite, as some places before used their holidays to start a year. I read French Edict of Roussillon of 1564 and it is not about religion. That some churches celebrate a bris day or other is not important unless you are talking to someone who is on the way to church to celebrate. Then wishing him happy holiday is a problem, but a new year is still not.
Why must you rehash this topic over and over. Like honestly, do yidden have nothing else to worry about in 2024 except saying “happy holidays”? Gosh, too much time on your hands.
The holy Berdichever was looking in his shul under all the tables on Kol Nidrei night. The chasidim did not know what he was doing. He said, RBSO, even though it was a mitzva to eat, I cannot find one drunk under the table. hameivin yavin.
We can do it for darkei shalom.
doom, cat, switch to counting years this way happened somewhere in 8-9th centuries unrelated to when the new year is. So, when say Eastern Roman Empire used Jan 1 counting from anti-xian emperor Diocletian – was it a problem then?
2024 years was NOT the birth of anyone famous.
Total made up stupidity. From their own literature, it can be proven the he was born appx 30 before.The REAL HOSTORIC reason this year is 2024 is because 2024 years ago was 70 years before the Churban Beis Hamikdash.
Around the year 532, they DECIDED to make it year 532, because it was 70 years before the Churban, so it sounded good.
Fact. Unbiased Truth.do yidden have nothing else to worry about in 2024 except saying “happy holidays”? Gosh, too much time on your hands.
I missed the part where someone said that we have “nothing else to worry about” except this interesting and relevant question about what is halachically permissible at this time of year, and if there is an issue of עבודה זרה or אביזרייהו (based on the halachos in שלחן ערוך יורה דעה סי’ קמח ס”ט).
I’ve heard that there were rebbes who wished a “guy yohr” on new uears with the intention of contrasting the way yidden view a new uear and the way goyim do.
Do pro-putin posters here wish NY on Jan 13 to their julian contacts? as this is not tied to a current secular calendar , maybe a bigger avak of AZ
“do yidden have nothing else to worry about in 2024 except saying “happy holidays”? Gosh, too much time on your hands.”
If you don’t feel comfortable about it, so don’t do it, 75% of the people here dont have daily interactions with non-Jewish people other then in passing, this is just a abi gerit thread.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.