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You have to show up in a horse drawn chariot to pick her up. You’ll spend a fortune on it and on her, and next date there won’t be a date. No explanation either. Your just not her type.
I told my sons to always take the girl to a fine restaurant on a first date. If the girl turns out to be of little interest and potential, at least you had a great meal.
“Can we all agree that neither party being in physical discomfort
makes for a better dating experience for both of them?”Define physical discomfort. Life is full of discomforts. Do we all need to be in climate controlled conditions every minute? Can I walk if I’m a little tired?
And what do you think of the situations where the boy drives an hour for the date and the girl insists that they don’t have the date in her neighborhood because heaven forbid people might see her so he has to drive another half an hour to the next Jewish town. That’s discomfort for the boy.
“But that’s ok- because for the rest of the guy’s life, his wife will be cooking for him, cleaning up after him, picking up his socks from the floor, and maybe she is even working to support him in learning, etc etc. But she is willing to do all that because she knows that he cares about her and is sensitive to her needs.”
And he supports her and hires cleaning ladies for her. You are implying that the woman has the harder job during marriage. And this depends very much on the marriage. I think we need to try and make things as fair as possible at each stage.
CTLawyer, maybe you and your sons are wealthy but most people are not. And considering how we don’t teach our sons a trade anymore (and neither do colleges) but somehow they are supposed to come up with 10,000 to 20,000 per child for tuition, being free and easy with money is not the way to go. Young people need to start saving now and learning self-discipline now.
“That’s a whole lot of whining.”
No, it’s a whole lot of good points. Put yourself in the boy’s shoes if you are capable of empathy.
Look at what I’m saying, the guy is doing everything. That is not good even for the date. It creates a situation where the girl is passive and passive people tend to be judgmental. They have nothing to do but judge. People need to be busy. Haimish dating leaves the girl with nothing to do but expect.
It’s amazing how everybody acknowledges the shidduch crisis but yet most are resistent to any changes in our methods, even though we picked up half of them from the goyim.
“You have to show up in a horse drawn chariot to pick her up. You’ll spend a fortune on it and on her, and next date there won’t be a date. No explanation either. Your just not her type.”
I once arranged a shiduch between two young people whose families were in my town. The boy was in yeshiva about an hour away. He rented a car for the first two dates. The girl didn’t want to be seen by her neighbors going on a date so she made him park outside as she slipped into the car. Even on the first date. That’s how they first met with her slipping into the car. Seemed very immodest to me. And wierd.
For each date, he had to take her out of the town so nobody would see her. So he had to plan out dates out of town and drive there after his hour drive.
This was the perfect bochur. Learned, davened, even had a parnassah plan. Great references. Handsome, nice. He really was awesome. But she was unsure and wanted to try a third date but didn’t want to wait till Sunday and insisted that they have the date in the middle of the week.
I was unsure if I should keep playing into all the nonsense but the mother of the girl pushed me into it and I weakened. So they went on the third date, with him missing night seder, renting a car, and taking her on another carefully planned evening of fun.
She rejected him of course.
The family is furious at me for enabling the whole thing. And I hear their point. But their fury really should be directed at the system which uses up the boys.
If you don’t think we are spoiling the girls then you are part of the problem. And the fury should be directed at you too.
What message is she getting that she makes these demands. What habits is she taking with her for the rest of her life?
Litvishechossid, once in NY I some a woman to an nice restaurant which also had a show being that it was Motzash. She complained that I took her by subway as I did not have a car. I wanted to tell her that I took her in a train. I should have pointed out that a subway car cost about $1 million.
CTL,
1. What about people who do not have so much money?
2. Being with the wrong person can ruin your meal.MTAB:
CT lawyer makes a valid point. You don’t need to be a millionaire’s son’ to take a prospective kalah to a “nice” restaurant fo a first date, assumining you’ve done soe prior dilligence on her. Fortunately, in NYC, Chicago, Lakewood, LA , Baltimore and several other cities, there are reasonably priced kosher restaurants where a nice meal would cost less than $100. (less than the cost of two Knicks tickets in the upper deck at MSG). On the othr hand, i this girl is somone with whom you’ve been fixed up by your mother’s friend’s shver, than probably better to meet in the hotel lobby for drinks or coffee at the cafe by the Rockefeller Center or Central Park skating rink., If she is athletic, consider renting a pair of skates…
MTAB,
No, it’s a whole lot of good points. Put yourself in the boy’s shoes if you are capable of empathy.
Wait, you’re asking me to show empathy, when while addressing potential discomfort for the young lady, you retorted that life is full of discomforts? And complaining about a young man’s hour long drive for a date is most certainly whining. Cry me a river! The commute for my first job was an hour each way, plus three miles of walking, rain, snow, or sunshine. The commute for my second job was also an hour each way of driving through brutal traffic. And guess what? Nobody gives out medals of valor for commuting. You want something? You have to work for it.
And at the end of the day, the young man made his own choice. He’s not a slave. He’s free to stay in the comforts of his home and look for a young lady who lives in his town. He chose to travel a longer distance in order to increase his prospects. The long drive was a known part of that choice.
Look at what I’m saying, the guy is doing everything.
The young man is free to do or not do whatever he pleases. All of the responses in this thread are simply suggesting what is polite and would make a good impression.
That is not good even for the date. It creates a situation where the girl is passive and passive people tend to be judgmental. They have nothing to do but judge. People need to be busy. Haimish dating leaves the girl with nothing to do but expect.
The funny thing is, the young women say the same thing. That they have to be and look perfect, and the young man judges them based on a short and superficial first impression. Stop making this into a male vs. female war, and just accept that dating is hard on everyone, and move on.
It’s amazing how everybody acknowledges the shidduch crisis but yet most are resistent to any changes in our methods, even though we picked up half of them from the goyim.
The shidduch crisis certainly does not bolster your argument. And what exactly did we pick up from the goyim? And rather than complaining about what is, how about sharing some ideas of your own?
MTAB,
For each date, he had to take her out of the town so nobody would see her. So he had to plan out dates out of town and drive there after his hour drive.
So this is a little bit strange, and the young man can certainly factor this in when considering whether he wants a second date or not. Or he can talk with the young lady about it and maybe gain some perspective. But ultimately it was his choice to go with it, and a mature adult takes responsibility for his decisions.
The family is furious at me for enabling the whole thing. And I hear their point. But their fury really should be directed at the system which uses up the boys.
Wait, the family is furious? And at YOU for the young man deciding to go on a third date? Sounds like this young lady really dodged a bullet.
Is this family going to call their son’s new boss to vent their fury that he has a long commute to work?
Q: Where should one take a girl for a date?
A: I imagine he means for a shidduch. You don’t go for dates! For a shidduch. The best place that costs the least money is Grand Central Station. That’s not private, it’s a kosher place, and there’s no admission, it doesn’t cost anything (R’ Avigdor Miller, #486 in Q&A 2, p. 88)
@MTAB
I started working in my father’s store after school at the age of 8. My elder sons also working in grandpa’s stores. The younger sons worked in my office as did my daughters. They earned their dating money (yes, I owned the cars they drove, but they paid the gas and tolls).
I don’t consider the cost of a good meal as throwing money away.I made sure my children were educated to earn a good living, as did my parents and grandparents for their children. Tuition is a struggle.
I have many of the finer things in life, but I earned them. I don’t throw money away. We vacation in our own home and have the entire family here for Yuntif. The amenities such as the pool, etc are well used and cheaper in the long run than vacations, hotels, sleep a way camp, etc.
My two youngest daughters were married here in the compound. Caterer, yes, large catering hall bills, no..I cut my own grass and in my mid 60s shovel my own snow (or use the snow blower if need be).
We don’t ‘buy’ Shabbos or other meals as takeout. We cook from scratch.We have 17 rooms in the main house and a cleaning lady once a week to do floors and bathrooms and kitchens. We all clean up after ourselves, and do our own laundry. My shirts don’t get sent out, they get ironed at home.
It’s all about choices.
When I want to hire a new junior attorney, at least one interview takes place in a restaurant. I want to see how they handle themselves in that type of a situation and observe their table manners. Dates are also interviews, and the same reasons to dine out apply.CTL,
1. When the Steipler was a bachur he had to travel a long distance by train fora shidduch (I very much doubt that they met in a nice restaurant). He had a suspicion that the seats were shatnez so he stood all the way. As a result he dozed during the meeting and she rejected him.
2. How do reconcile “educating” someone to earn a “good living” with Hashem’s control of parnassa? Is making a great deal of money more important than a satisfying job?
3. If part of the job of a junior attorney is to lunch with clients you are correct. If not, who cares? BTW, I had a co-worker who was dating a Swiss woman. They had an argument over on which side of the plate to put the knife and which side to put the fork as apparently there is a difference in this between Europe and America. Maybe it would havebeen better if they went over Sarah Jackman.
CTL, your response didn’t address MTAB’s point about many people being unable to afford what you advocate they do.
MTAB, the Jewish way is that the boy is the one seeking out a bride, and he is also supposed to support her after marriage.
We have 17 rooms in the main house and a cleaning lady once a week to do floors and bathrooms and kitchens. We all clean up after ourselves, and do our own laundry. My shirts don’t get sent out, they get ironed at home.
17 Rooms? and a Main House? I thought I lived “Luxirious” and I have 5 rooms
@AviK
The advice I gave my sons was appropriate for my sons. I don’t tell other people how they should spend their money or what they can afford.
When my boys were dating they were already in law school, had finished yeshiva and college and had been earning during summers and vacations.If the girl is not the right one, one doesn’t talk with one’s mouth full, so eating takes up much of the awkward time.
@Joseph
I have always advocated living within one’s means, I posted the advice I gave my sons, not to other people’s sons.RY23, the Jewish way is that the girl is supposed to serve her husband after marriage.
Mrs. CTL is a designer/builder/realtor
We bought the house 27 years ago for $60,000. It was a broken down 7 room farmhouse built in 1803. We did much of the renovations and additions ourselves. My father taught me carpentry, electrical and plumbing skills as a youngster. Mrs. CTL’s zaideh was a painter and she learned to hang sheet rock, tape and paint from him. We worked hard, paid for improvements and additions as we could afford them. The mortgage was paid off after 20 years.
The house serves as her portfolio to show new clients her abilities. We both have professional offices in the structure.
When her mother became a widow, we sold the MIL’s house and built her a house on our grounds. It is a 2 family which allowed her to collect rental income in her retirement years.
Our garage is a separate building that was originally a carriage house. There is a studio apartment over the garages. The main house has 10 rooms on the first floor including our offices. The upper floor is closed off except for Yuntif when the ganzteh mispocha is in residence, when the upstairs Pesach Kitchen is in use cooking for the holidays and all summer long when all the grandchildren spend the summer in Camp CTL.
Could we live in less space? Yes. But there is something to be said for the whole family being close. Last December MIL moved in with us due to her illness (she was Niftara on RH). My daughter who married last April and her husband moved into MIL’s apartment. We did not renew the tenant’s lease this year and the youngest daughter who was married in August and her husband live in the other apartment. The couples pay the taxes and all expenses on the house. I expect that they will buy their own houses in a few years with money they have earned. It is a great pleasure to give them a start. My grandparents lived with my great grandparents when they were first married in 1919. My parents were married in 1944 and due to WWII there was a housing shortage, they lived with my grandparents. Today, most families are spread apart, we prefer to live close to each other.
my best and last “first date” (because I married the woman that I went out with on this date) was that we took a walk to a park nearby and had a picnic
I was totally comfortable there and was able to be myself (as opposed to a hotel lobby where when I went on other first dates I was struggling to make conversation)
Joseph, the Jewish way is that once the boy and girl get married, the tablecloth goes on the table.
CA, why do you have more trouble making conversation sitting down at a table in a lounge than sitting down at a picnic table?
I don’t know if it’s “trouble” having conversation (I am not a conversationalist btw) I just felt more comfortable and more like myself where I went to a place that was my decision (as of being forced to go to a hotel lobby because that’s what everyone is supposed to do)
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