- This topic has 93 replies, 22 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 7 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
DaMoshe- most of them it isn’t to get the money from the government, but in order not to be drafted. You can’t sit and do nothing. You can go to army, or learn. Yes there are other ways of serving, but they don’t believe in helping the government, only the people directly, e.g. Yad Sarah, Yad Eliezer…
Health, read the whole post, don’t cherry pick. It isn’t becoming of you to imply the opposite of what I wrote. Its also an immature way to debate. I said the idea that since an increasing number of yidden were learning as the number of those killed by terrorism was increasing, by your causality link, we should infer that there was a direct correlation. I then wrote that the idea was preposterous, just as preposterous as your reading the entrails…
The arguments of some of the posters here defy logic and they will always find a way of twisting the facts to justify their opinions. It is too tiresome to answer every single argument (although health takes the cake for calling the german jews anusim…last time I looked ,they were big on reform..).
To mdd and others: can you please show me the quote in gemoro that says that only learning torah will always protect klal yisroel? If this were so, then why didn’t the chachomim over the many centuries insist on kollelim everywhere for everyone? No one ever asked that- until the last fifty years. The basic fact about learning is the following: “kovea itim latorah” do whatever is asked of you. No one expects people to learn forever (see gemoro berochos 35B)and the catastrophes of the past have come in many various times, whether there was torah (second bayis) or not (maybe germany 1933?). the tosofos yom tov may have said what he said but then this is his opinion, not necessarily what is real. The gemoro asked long time ago abot “zaddik vera lo” without a conclusive answer.Same here. No one has an asnwer about the HOlocaust ,not even the satmarer rebbe or Rav teichtel ,to take both sides of the argument. The basic fact is that there is a lot of torah in israel today (thanks to the zionists!!)and this wil not diminish. The adjustments will make sure that only those who are real “learners” stay in learning and everyone else makes a decent lving.
Health: Contrary to what you might read in Der Yid or Der Blatt, the majority of the Chareidim in Israel participate in the political process there, and ( the Ashkenazim) are represented in the Kenneset by UTJ. UTJ joined the Sharon government on the eve of the Gush Katif expulsion, in return for additional $$ to their institutions. They mocked the claims of the orthodox zionists and scoffed at the idea that any terror would come from the expulsion. Shortly after, Hamas overtook Gaza, and are till today, using these areas to fire missiles into Israel.
So who’s to blame for the rockets?
ROB, I am not saying that only learning protects and it is full-proof — one has to keep other mitzvos proprerly too. The reason why the Gedolim did not insist on kollelim for everybody everywhere in previous doros is most simple — it was economically impossible. Only “koveya ittim” — not true, look in S.A Or.Chaim 156. Nobody has the answer about the Shoah — SHEKER!! Read the Tochechah in the Chumash and remember about the avalanche of otd in Europe. (Btw, about Germany, do not twist the facts! Like I said the otd German Jews were already 2,3,4,5th generations of otd – there is a limud zechus in that) One just has to be willing to see!
ROB, because of your very MO leanings, you choose to ignore the basic HaShkofos ha’Torah! Btw, “when kolo kol Ya’akov be’batei medrashos ve’batei knesios, ein ha’yadaim yedei Eisav…” — just to start. The ma’amorei Chazal are just too numerous to bring here! YES and YES, punishments come because of aveiros!! The Gemoros list which punishments come because of which aveiros.
Health: “It goes by percentage. Even though there are more Frum people learning -I highly doubt the % of Israelis learning Torah is more than it ever was.”
So you don’t think that there’s an enormous s’char for each and every moment of Torah learning? Do you believe that you can apply statistics to s’char v’onesh? We learn that every single moment of every single mitzvah is worth so much- how can one break it down to statistics? Is every yungerman’s learning protecting one soldier? When a soldier dies, is it because, whoops, his protecting yungerman overslept?
I don’t think a statistical analogy really makes sense in the context of s’char v’onesh, which is something we know NOTHING about (I think this really applies to the whole thread- who are we to know which generation was better or what caused each tzarah).
ROB: “No one has an asnwer about the HOlocaust”
Actually, those who choose to ignore Zionist propaganda and also read the Zionists’ own words (e.g. “Palestine cannot be flooded with the old and undesirable” – how Nazi-like, incidentally), and read what their policies (yes, pre-State) were during WW-II, have a partial answer. And those who look to what gedolim said have even more of an answer.
“R. Hutner, on the other hand, was a fierce critic of Zionism. In one well-known lecture, he places causal responsibility for the Holocaust on the Zionist movement. He argues that the Mufti of Jerusalem was not rabidly anti-Semitic until he encountered Zionist aspirations to reclaim the Land of Israel and that the Mufti thereafter played a crucial influential role in convincing the Nazis to adopt the Final Solution.”
There are plenty of others, too, like R’ Gifter who was quoted as saying that Hitler YM”S was a Divine messenger of retribution due to the general acceptance of Zionism.
Google and you shall find – and the above is from an MO site.
The bottom line is that while the answer is not a simple one, the Zionists would be wise to avoid this topic as it exposes (part of) their rishus and makes one question how those reshaim could possibly be miZera Avraham, Yitzchak viYaakov.
ROB:
“The arguments of some of the posters here defy logic and they will always find a way of twisting the facts to justify their opinions. “
Funny, I was about to say the same thing.
“If this were so, then why didn’t the chachomim over the many centuries insist on kollelim everywhere for everyone?”
Because it simply wasn’t possible then.
Let me put this as bluntly as I can: Do you, or do you not, believe that the bad things that happen to us are (often) punishments for our aveiros?
Health- when one says that when the population grows, the learning population must increase proportionally, one implies that it’s all in the numbers and percentages, which is honestly more than we mere mortals can say.
After all, we do know, for example, of how Riba”z asked Vespasian to save R Tzaddok, as in the merit of his fasting Yerushalayim had been saved for 40 years. Does that mean that there were no others who had enormous merits (including, unquestionably, Riba”z himself)? Of course not- but even one person’s kochos and efforts can reap enormous dividends.
Also, just OOC, what’s with the random capitalizations in the beginning of words?
To answer most of the posters who challenge me about ‘dchar ve’onesh; The gemoro itself does not have an easy naswer, why zaddikin sufferbvand resho’im prosper. “al achas vekama’ whe it comes to events of historical proportions. If it would be so simple, then why do the chacomim struggle themselves to clarify events? And the destruction of bays sheni, the persecutions in the middle ages, tach vetat, the recent Holocaust all fell mainly of frum jews,not the chilonim. How is that for s’char ve’onesh?
The fact is that it is not for us to give reasons for anything that happens- to learn from some- yes, but I am not sure that the lessons I would draw would be the ones other posters woudl draw.As far as Hakatan’s psoting, this is an old ‘machlokes’ and i will beg to differ from what he writes.
ROB, frum Jews also can have aveiros. Plus,do not twist the facts. During the middle ages and the tach ve’tat there were no frei Jews to speak of. Churban ha’Baiys — it is not like the frum got over the head and the tsedukim did not. The Shoah? Most of the Eastern European Jews were probably frei by that time and more were going otd by the day.
Btw, about churban ha’Bais — the Gemorah specifically says about the frume that they had sinas chinom between themselves.
It is worthwhile reviewing the history of the Gaza disengagement: After the RZ parties left the government in response to the announcement of the disengagement plan, Agudath Israel, which had not been a part of any Israeli government since the early 1950s, joined the government! That was (correctly) viewed as a slap in the face by the Religious Zionists. If one is to seriously blame the government for the consequences of the disengagement, the charedi leaders have to share that blame.
mdd-this whole subject is tiresome because we will both hang on to our views. But-you are contradicting yourself in the same sentence. If previous “churbonos” almost exclusively fell on the frum jews- then your premise of more Torah learning to protect the Jews is erroneous ,as the previous generations suffered immensely , in spite of their erudition and “frumkeit”.
mdd: “During the middle ages and the tach ve’tat there were no frei Jews to speak of.”
That was only because in those times (though less so by tach vetat) there was no concept of “frei”ness at all. Atheism didn’t catch on until the Renaissance, and after that there were plenty of Jews we would call “frei” today, and before that there were plenty who converted to Christianity.
Health: “Maybe it’s more than you can say, but anyone with common sense could say it.”
Do you have a privileged insight into the workings of the Divine Plan? I didn’t think so. While it is certainly possible that that is a rationale, I don’t claim to know this for a fact, as you seem to. There are always factors beyond our control and our limited comprehension- that was the sole point of my first post (and when two people misunderstand you the same way, you should probably edit for clarity).
Health: I have so far not said a WORD about the current Israeli government. I have in the past, on other threads, but so far my only point on this thread is to question something COMPLETELY UNRELATED.
Generally, when someone edits for clarity, they are assuming that something was unclear about what they said. Your editing seems to be retroactively changing your wording while insulting people for not understanding exactly what you meant to say, even if that’s not exactly the way it came out.
While of course every single additional person learning adds unimaginable zechus to am Yisrael, we do NOT know for sure that when the population increases, the number of people learning MUST increase proportionally. That raises the concept of each thing being directly and immutably correlated, which you said was not exactly what you meant. Which is fine, so far as I’m concerned (and no, to forestall the next question, you did NOT need my permission to say anything. Whatever).
Shalom al Yisrael.
ROB, I did state that frum people could have aveiros for which gzeiros could come. Plus, again, your views are against open statements of Chazal.
health-your first point makes no sense because you can always say-if something happens- well, we should have done more- ‘im kein ein le’dovor sof”- if that’s the approach you have, there is no end and no answer to anything. But- I want to address your other points,specifically the last point about me.
I think you fundamentally don’t understand the opinion of people like me. First, no one denies that every jew should learn. When one leaves this world, the immediate question is “kovato itim latorah?” (note, this is after the question of being honest in business but I digress). There is certainly an obligation upon every jew to learn.But this does not mean that every jew has to sit all day in kollel. This is not feasible, in today’s world.(see berachos 35B).So, you have to make choices. Clearly, special people (“metuzyonim”) should be given this opportunity ,even it is comes at the community’s expense. If there are young men who want to learn, relying upon their families, or themselves, then they can do whatever they want to. The argument that many people have is that, today, in israel especially,there is a presumption that everyone has to learn at the communitiy’s expense. That is not only unrealistic financially, but it has never been the norm in klal yisroel.And I am convinced that the protection of HKBH is as protective when the klal is organized in the ways I indicated, as if there would be tens of thousands of learners at the community’s expense. Verty simple, check the mishne avos ‘lo olechu hamelocho ligmor”….you do what you have to do yourself.That is all that HKBH asks from you..
ROB, it is mefurash in numerous places that more learning bring s more protection. It is one thing to say that one can not impose on others if they do not want the zechusim, but you can not say that it does not matter if 100 people learn or 20,000 learn. Just as you can’t say it is all the same if 2 people gave $20 each to tzedokah or 1000 people gave $5000 each to tzedokah.
“Stop with your hatred towards Charedim already. Yes, they joined the Gov., but they weren’t the Majority of that Gov., nor was the disengagement their idea. “
Who is expressing hatred? I’m just pointing out the fact, which seems inconvenient to you, that when the Religious Zionist parties pulled out of the government after the announcement of the disengagement plan, the Charedim jumped in and joined the government shortly thereafter.
If you say that you can’t blame Charedim for the disengagement because they were not the majority, I’ll accept that — but then you have to stop blaming Religious Zionists for the “share the burden” efforts because the RZs are also not the majority of the government today. Fair?
to health first;I have consistently advocated that the government in Israel just adjust its benefits so that -for the great majority-there is no financial incentive to remain in kollel. Forget about the draft for now- after all, this is what the rabbonim who are hyperventilating are concerned with-and allow them to join the workforce. I think that a great majority of people who are now prisoners of their fate would leave the kollelim and go out to work-which would benefit everyone.
to mdd: you keep on saying that “it is mefurash in numerous places that more learning brings more protection”. Well please give me the place of these “sayings”. i have given you the actual plaxe where to find support for my views. Please do the same!
Just off hand, look in Kesubos 106A where Rav Yosef said that because of decrease in the number of talmidim in comparison to the generation of Elisha he can not daven for a yeshua. Look in perush Rashi on Yeshayah 10:27 that the salvation from Sancheriv came because of increase in limud ha’Torah. Look in Bava Basra 7B that talmidei chachomim are pturim from the defence taxes as their Torah protects them. There is a Gemorah or a Medrash I don’t remember where that one talmid chocham protects 40,000 others. There is a Gemorah in Shabbos, perek Be’ma Madlikin that Malach ha’Moves could not attack Dovid ha’Melech as long as he was learning. When you are done, come for more.
mdd: “bemechilas kevod toroscho”- with respect to your knowledge: No one is disputing that Torah can protect (see Dovid hamelech). So are mitzvos (“sheluchei mitzvah einon nizokin”). What is being debated today is not learning per se, but how to structure a society. As you can see from other gemoros that I quoted (berochos, kidushin,etc..), society cannot live on learning alone. We still live in the real world. Financially and societally, it is impossible for a country to have tens of thousands of people without working in some kind of profession. And, as I said many times, no one is disputing that a number of talmidim should be exempt (even the present plan envisions this).It is the blanket exemption that people object to and this is what is new and never was part of the klal.
“But the blame lies with the Israeli Gov. and its’ leaders at that time.”
Agree. The charedim were part of the government and its leaders, so they share in the blame.
ROB, I do not much disagree with your last statement. There is, for sure, a point where it is impossible to support all those people in Kollel anymore and some of them have to go out and get a job. I am just not sure that it already has come to that,objectively speaking, or it is just that the non-Chareidi Israelis do not want to pay for all those people anymore. Plus, they are afraid that if they do not get them now, the Chareidim won’t go to work even when there is indeed no choice.
I’ve been following this thread with a sinking sensation. The commenters have lowered a lovely spiritual concept to crude numbers: more talmidim, more protection; more Zionists, less protection. Or maybe it’s the percents of talmidim and Zionists that count (and a Zionist can’t be a talmid, of course). I have a modest proposal: maybe the true measure is weight. Shouldn’t a beefy bachur provide more protection? Or is it the other way around — shouldn’t light weight have an advantage, as with Singapore Airlines? Either way, it’s ??? ???? ????; the commenters have crowded HKBH right out of the calculus.
well, moshiach can come now- mdd and I are (virtually) on the same page! BTW- If you look up other threads, yo uwill find out that my ownc sons are in kollel. However, I think (of course!) that they are the cream of the crop and deserve to be there! In am more serious vein, they did not stay in kollel forever and are now “marbitz torah’! and this is why the israeli system is a failure. “lilmod ulelamed’ and only a very precious few can stay and learn forever.
to health: you either didn’t understand my words or chose to ignore them. What I said was that the government should forget to draft the avreichim and just stop the special finacial privileges that the kollelim get. (Yhey can still collect the normal welfare payments, of course). What will happen is that aa great part of those avreichim will go to work ( and the government will not hold them up) and a more meritorious system will evolve. This will solve many of the present problems. Some avreichim will choose to go to the army anyway. Some will just go to work and some jechidim will learn. BTW-this is a solution that a nummer of knesset members have advanced. However, as the rabbonim totally refused any compromise, we are now faced with a more dire law-still an improvement but I think that it could have been even better.
Health, government doesn’t work that way. When you sit in one, you bear responsibility for everything it does by commission or omission.
Health, the problem is that they are sitting and “learning” in public libraries (i am currently sitting between two “learners” – one is watching a SciFi movie and the other is watching something from which I had to avert my eyes) – except for those walking the streets and “learning”. The real learners will continue to learn.
Health,
1. They will not be weeded out until fiscal constraints compel it.
2. They should be given alternatives that will make them productive citizens, starting with Army service.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.