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“The RZ would say that the gedolim in past generations would react the same as they did to the opportunity to populate and build Eretz Yisroel, which wasn’t possible in the past.”
1. What do you mean by “opportunity”? Weren’t the zionists the ones who created the opportunity? Why couldn’t that have been done previously? (It’s possible you are right and it couldn’t have been done – I am just wondering why.).
2. Maybe I’m wrong, but I didn’t think that the Mizrachi movement was started by Gedolim or that there were any Gedolim who considered themselves Mizrachi. But again, I could be wrong.
For them to talk about what the Gedolim in the past would have said is ridiculous; you have to listen to the Gedolim of your times. And that is what the Chareidim were doing. And that is what the Yidden in all the generations past had done, and that is why they are a continuation of the past.
3. Even if there were Gedolim at the time who aligned themselves with the Mizrachi movement, today, I’m fairly certain that there aren’t. In any case, the Chareidim are certainly following the majority of Gedolim and the biggest Gedolim, if not all of them. So they are doing what Am Yisrael did throughout history.
4. Furthermore, Mizrachi was a new movement. All the Chareidim did was to not follow it. Saying that is a new movement is like saying that not being Chassidish is a new movement. Maybe the Chassidim thought that the Gedolim in past times would have become Chassidish. But that doesn’t change the fact that Chassidus was a new movement and not following it is not a new movement.
I just remembered when I first started to really realize that the Chilonim use the term “chareidi” to refer to anyone who is fully frum. It was when I watched a youtube video where a chiloni guy was explaining to some (not-Jewish) foreign workers the differences between chiloni, dati and chareidi. He used dati to refer to people who are not completely Frum. That is the general usage of the term in the Chiloni world. They generally use the term Chareidi to refer to people who are fully Frum.
2. Maybe I’m wrong, but I didn’t think that the Mizrachi movement was started by Gedolim or that there were any Gedolim who considered themselves Mizrachi. But again, I could be wrong.
Amazing you could forget Rav Kook, It is true his zionistic leanings were not the majority and were a Daas Yachid at the time. He was definatly in those circles. I forgot exactly what, but he had something to do with Rav Elyshiv wedding (I think he was Masadar Kiddushin)
1. What do you mean by “opportunity”? Weren’t the zionists the ones who created the opportunity? Why couldn’t that have been done previously? (It’s possible you are right and it couldn’t have been done – I am just wondering why.).
It was very difficult to move to Palestine before 1917. The Turks who controlled it allowed very few jews to move there and the ones who were able had trouble because it was difficult to make a parnassah there .
As a side not the Gedolim also forbid jews from going to america as well. They called it a Treif Medina and quote obvioulsy they changed their mind
1. “What do you mean by “opportunity”? “
Open a histroy book in the mid 19th century there was a surge of nationalism worldwide. Among Many jews this manifested as zionism. Then there was the Balfour declaration and San remo confrence
2. “Maybe I’m wrong, but I didn’t think that the Mizrachi movement was started by Gedolim “
You are. Granted there werent as many as those that opposed. I beleive all agree R” Yitzchak Yaakov Reines was a Gadol
3. Who decides who are “The biggest Gedolim” ?
4. ” Maybe the Chassidim thought that the Gedolim in past times would have become Chassidish.”
Lol, they do! All movements are new at some point, though their adherents claim to be following the past. This is my point (and ZD’s and DY agreed as well)
Much like your modern notion of “Daas Torah” is a new idea, though I’m willing to bet you claim it always existed.
Even among those who claim Daas Torah always existed, I dont think any of them ever claimed if a person votes for a different party than the one supported by Gedolim he is no longer ” Shomer Torah and Mitzvos.”
see here http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/is-haredism-a-movement/page/4#post-640251
I just remembered when I first started to really realize that the Chilonim use the term “chareidi” to refer to anyone who is fully frum. It was when I watched a youtube video where a chiloni guy was explaining to some (not-Jewish) foreign workers the differences between chiloni, dati and chareidi. He used dati to refer to people who are not completely Frum. That is the general usage of the term in the Chiloni world. They generally use the term Chareidi to refer to people who are fully Frum.
Well, I guess we’ve discovered the source of your error.
That is the general usage of the term in the Chiloni world. They generally use the term Chareidi to refer to people who are fully Frum.
Most chilonim know the difference between Dati Leumi and Charedim
1. The term “Chareidi” to refer to anyone observant was in vogue 100 years ago. Since then the number of labels has grown. “Dati” refers to non-Chareidi frum.
2. So who orchestrated the rise of nationalism in the 19th century and who is orchestrating its present revival?
3. Which Chareidim? There are also various sub-groups. Besides the different Chassidic groups, there is Lithuanian, which is further divided between Bnei Beraq and Yerushalayim. There is also a new group of working Chareidim. There are the olim from America and France who are more like Chardal (Chareidi Leumi) except for not having been in the IDF. As for following gedolim, I can tell you that at least in the Anglo Chareidi world Rav Kook, Rav Yisraeli and even academics such as Prof. (Emeritus) Schochatman and Dr. Vigoda (Asst. AG for Jewish law) are quoted in shiurim (I have heard this with my own ears).
Gavra-at-work: “Where is the Aveirah of voting for Meretz? Does this tie into “following the Gedolim”? Wouldn’t that be an additional qualification?”
I think it would be “not following the Gedolim” which is part of being Shomer Torah and Mitzvos.
I was almost hoping you would go there.
1: Following the “Gedolim” is an absolute qualification for being a Chareidi.
2: Included in “following the Gedolim” is voting Gimmel, as the Gedolim have told us that we must vote Gimmel.
Hence
3: Anyone who did not vote Gimmel is not a Chareidi.
Or
3: One may have different Gedolim than you (ex. Satmar Rov, Rav Avital, Rav Meir Stern, Rav Fuerst, etc. etc.) and still be a Chareidi. If their Gadol doesn’t tell them for whom to vote, they may vote Meretz (or Labor, NRP, etc.).
This assumes that having the Gedolim tell people from whom to vote is not a new “movement”. Gantz Shayach it is, as ubiquitin said earlier.
This assumes that having the Gedolim tell people from whom to vote is not a new “movement”. Gantz Shayach it is, as ubiquitin said earlier.
Depends, as does everything else in this discussion, on whether you hold its right. So we continue to go in circles.
“I just remembered when I first started to really realize that the Chilonim use the term “chareidi” to refer to anyone who is fully frum. “
Actually, when the chilonim want to refer to chareidim, they often use the term “dosim.”
I’m going to throw a little more fuel on the fire and suggest that RZ wasn’t a movement either. Zionism was a movement. Then there was the frum community’s reaction to that- those who embraced and applauded it (Mizrachi), and those who opposed it (Agudah et al). Meaning that the splinter in the frum world was based on Hashkafa and also the old standby, politics. The differences in the communities as they are now I think stem from that original stance- joining and working side-by-side with the secular Zionists to build the state, or fortifying the community against the outside influences of the secular builders of the state.
Now feel free to discuss, dissect and disagree….
Gavra, the Rema says (Choshen Mishpat 163,1) that whenever there is a disagreement over some public matter each person should give his opinion l’shem Shemayim. His opinion and not his rav’s opinion. L’shem Shemayim and not l’shem interests.
Winnie, within the religious public the term “dos” is used to refer to anyone who is more machmir than the speaker.
LU, I’ll try one more time. You’re addressing a question I asked Joseph, and didn’t understand it
Firs. You clearly don’t understand the term Rabbinic Judaism or you would not have accused me of kfira. From the time of had Sinai, our religion didn’t have a name ( the term Judaism wouldn’t exist until after the kingdom split after Shlomo’s death ) and centered around the sacrificial system centered first around the Mishkan and then the two BH. There were no shuls or formal prayer services other than reading the parsha. With the destruction of the second BH, chazal realized that the way we practiced religion had to be made portable and they formulated Rabbinic Judaism. Torah sbebeal peh applied to both.
With regard to Joseph. He stated that a. Chareidim is the default form and b. there were NO changes since had Sinai. So, in that context, piyutim were a good example of a change.
I used the stardom to challenge Joseph’s default statement in that while also from, their halachos, minhagim and nusach are different. At best, the Chareidim were the Eastern European default form
Gavra, the Rema says (Choshen Mishpat 163,1) that whenever there is a disagreement over some public matter each person should give his opinion l’shem Shemayim. His opinion and not his rav’s opinion. L’shem Shemayim and not l’shem interests.
The Rema also says that only those who pay taxes get to vote.
The Gedolim would argue that this is not a Din in Shechenim/Shutfin, but an attempt to squeeze Great Mammon (the “Amud HaOlam”) for Yeshivos out of the Shrekliche Zionists, for which everyone is Mechuyav to join. 🙂
Sfardim, not stardom
Less, actually set prayers and shuls began after the destruction of the First Temple (Hoshea 14:3). Archaeologists have found the remains of shuls from the Second Temple period.
As for the claim that no changes having been made since Sinai, this is errant nonsense. We just celebrated a change (Chanuka) and iy”h we will celebrate another one in Adar. Minhagim are all changes. Kabbalat Shabbat, for example, was instituted by the Chochmei Tzefat (which is why Ashkenazim say it from the bima – to stress that it is not part of Arvit).
Avi K,
Had you read earlier posts from myself, your claims would be preempted
Gavra, etc.
Supporting any movement that publicly disapproves of any of the 3 chamuros makes other than a charedi or Frum ( irresepective of your garb)
“It was very difficult to move to Palestine before 1917. The Turks who controlled it allowed very few jews to move there and the ones who were able had trouble because it was difficult to make a parnassah there .”
As late as 1927 ,with all the money raised and propaganda, and the net emigration rate from Palestine was greater than the immigration
“{There’s no question that all streams are different than Jews were in the past, the difference between each of today’s streams is how they have adapted to today’s reality.
Everyone thinks that they have adapted in the manner that our gedolim from the past (going back to Chazal and even earlier) would have wanted, and therefore “default” Judaism, and the others are movements. “
FALSE
for all their shrill claims and endless number of articles printed and typed,
No Centrist honestly believes that they are the real McCoy
.For one , they spend so much of their time with shrill endless number of articles printed and/or typed, pointing out the flaws and faults of Chareidim or yeshivish and preaching how they are the divergence from the past that the proof is in the pudding.
“When you’re weak on Defense, Stay on Offense”
The irony is when they wish to rely on some dubious kula, you’ll/they’ll invariably pull up some chareidi/chassidic group as proof that it could be acceptable.
Furthermore.. if a gadol from an earlier generation would come back today and in the higly unlikely scenario instruct myself that my derech hachaim is somehow mistaken, I would be delighted
The Modox (and most Chassidim for that matter) would be so miserable as to send him back where he came from!
R.A K,
U.of M. campus kiruv
‘I find it ironic when I encounter more whispered suspicion about my kiruv efforts from orthodox students than from secular brethren …
Many from the Modern Orthodox community feel morally unjustifed imparting their beliefs to others..
Sadly,…many in the Modern Orthodox community,who in the finest HIRschian tradition could most credibly wage intellectual battle on
behalf of Torah ideology ,refrain from doing so.Instead they critique kiruv in a manner that belies either their own insecurities of belief,or their .. concern
that imparting these beliefs to others compromise their intellectual integrity or inappropriately influence others
“What would you call someone who wears jeans, Sandals , shirt tucked out and a Kipa Sruga, but ptherwise the mitzvahs in a similar way to someone who wears a streimel, Becksha and shoes “
Observe how he davens
Second, find out who He [and/or all the more so She] ‘umbrellas’ with
While there are some who are naive,for most…
The term Chareidi predates the term Dati. Chareidi was used to refer to all Frum people. At some point, those who wished to disassociate themselves from the Chareidi world while still remaining religious (but more modern) started calling themselves Dati.
While different terms can be and are used differently by different people, many (and I think most) people in Israel consider “Dati” to mean less Frum than “Chareidi”. Many, if not, most Israeli Chilonim will use the term “Chareidi” to refer to anyone “very Frum /sincerely Frum”. People who are very Frum and tzioni usually refer to themselves as either Dati Chazak or Chareidi Leumi or Chareidi.
Since the word Chareidi is not usually used in America (until recently, I don’t think it was used at all, and now it is just starting to be used), Americans usually assume that the word “Chareidi” refers to something specific that does not exist in the US, and they don’t realize that it is simply the Israeli word for Frum for the most part.
I think most people in the CR live in America. I don’t know if anyone here has lived here as long as I have (close to 30 years). Having lived here for many years and spoken to many people, this is my definite impression as to how many, if not most Israelis use the term “Chareidi”.I have not taken an official survey, so I can’t say 100% that that is how most people use the term, and of course these things can change over time. I was out of the country for a few years, so it is theoretically possible that things changed over the past few years, although I doubt they changed that much. It seems to me that the majority of people do use the term that way, but if not, it is certainly a significant minority.
I know someone dati-leumi who was referred to in the secular newspapers as being Chareidi because he was learning on a bus when he was shot at and he was saved by his sefer when the bullet or missile hit the sefer instead of him (at least I think the story went something like that – I don’t remember the exact details anymore). They assumed he was Chareidi because he was learning.
And I can tell you of many times when I heard Chilonim use the terms “Chareidi” to refer to anyone who was sincerely Frum. And most people I know who are seriously Frum and tzioni do not call themselves “Dati” by itself. They either say Chareidi Leumi or Dati Chazak or Chareidi.
All of you who are arguing with me about this – How many years have you lived in Israel? How many Israeli Chilonim have you spoken to? Do you have immediate family members who are Israeli dati-leumi and Chilonim like I do and do you know how they use the terms?
I will concede that it is possible that things have changed in the past 5 years (although I doubt it) and that there are people who use these terms differently. But it definitely was the way that many (if not most) people used the term up until 5 years ago, and it certainly was the original usage of the terms.
Very important point I almost forgot to mention: If you want to see the origin of the terms Chareidi and Dati as well as a definition of the terms, See “Defenders of the Faith by Sam Heilman.
You can find the pages that discuss this topic if you google the words “origin of the term Chareidi” or something like that. At least it worked yesterday, but today I’m having trouble finding it that way.
If you read this, you will see very clearly that “Chareidi” was the original term used to refer to Frum people, and “Dati” was a new thing.
ZD: “Amazing you could forget Rav Kook, It is true his zionistic leanings were not the majority and were a Daas Yachid at the time. He was definatly in those circles. I forgot exactly what, but he had something to do with Rav Elyshiv wedding (I think he was Masadar Kiddushin)”
I’m almost positive he was his Rav and Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zatsal’s as well (at least one of them, if not both). He was also Rav Hutner, Zatsal’s Rav (or at least one of his Rabbanim). And I think he saved Rav Elyashiv, zatsal’s life somehow by getting him out of Europe or something. It is mentioned in the biography of Rebbetzin Kanievsky, zatsal.
Of course, I didn’t forget Rav Kook, zatsal. I wasn’t sure (and still am not sure) if he considered himself to be Mizrachi. Being Tzioni and being Mizrachi are not the same. That is precisely the reason that I wrote that I wasn’t sure whether or not there were any Gedolim that defined themselves as Mizrachi. My impression is that he didn’t, but again, I am not sure.
Gavra-at-work: “Where is the Aveirah of voting for Meretz? Does this tie into “following the Gedolim”? Wouldn’t that be an additional qualification?”
I think it would be “not following the Gedolim” which is part of being Shomer Torah and Mitzvos.
I was almost hoping you would go there.
1: Following the “Gedolim” is an absolute qualification for being a Chareidi.
2: Included in “following the Gedolim” is voting Gimmel, as the Gedolim have told us that we must vote Gimmel.
Hence
3: Anyone who did not vote Gimmel is not a Chareidi.
Or
3: One may have different Gedolim than you (ex. Satmar Rov, Rav Avital, Rav Meir Stern, Rav Fuerst, etc. etc.) and still be a Chareidi. If their Gadol doesn’t tell them for whom to vote, they may vote Meretz (or Labor, NRP, etc.).”
1. I never said that “anyone who doesn’t vote Gimmel is not Chareidi”. As you yourself pointed out, there are Gedolim who say to vote for other parties. I voted Shas one year.
2. I don’t think there are any Gedolim who say to vote for Meretz.
GAW: “This assumes that having the Gedolim tell people from whom to vote is not a new “movement”. Gantz Shayach it is, as ubiquitin said earlier.”
Finally, people are giving an intelligent reason to consider Chareidiism a new movement!
I disagree, since I don’t think it is a new idea that we listen to Gedolim when it comes to these types of matters, but at least that was an intelligent argument!!
Now we have to start the debate on “Daas Torah”, what it means and whether or not it is a new concept. But I don’t have time or energy now.
To be continued….
If you ever want misinformation on anything relating to the frum world, see what Sam Heilman has to say.
LU
“They assumed he was Chareidi because he was learning”
But he wasnt, right? Who cares what an ignorant reporter wrote OF course there are some who dont know the difference. You dont seem to be one of them Im not sure why you are having trouble with this.
The bottom line is Gush Emunim may be very frum but they arent charedi.
“Now we have to start the debate on “Daas Torah”, what it means and whether or not it is a new concept. But I don’t have time or energy now.
To be continued….”
yo udont have to. Its been discussed many times in this forum
Do you think he made up the fact that the word “chareidi” came before the word “dati”? When do you think each word originated, and do you have a source? If you have any information on the topic, I would like to know.
Supporting any movement that publicly disapproves of any of the 3 chamuros makes other than a charedi or Frum ( irresepective of your garb)
Hence it is Assur to vote in any American Election.
I haven’t researched it, but unlike Heilman, I won’t therefore make something up.
“Having lived here for many years and spoken to many people, this is my definite impression as to how many, if not most Israelis use the term “Chareidi”.”
Can we agree that the definition changes depending on where you live?
“Supporting any movement that publicly disapproves of any of the 3 chamuros makes other than a charedi or Frum ( irresepective of your garb)”
“Hence it is Assur to vote in any American Election.”
I don’t know who made that comment, but I assume that they would differentiate between American elections and Israeli elections.
“I don’t think there are any Gedolim who say to vote for Meretz.”
But there are certainly those who will tell you to vote however you feel is best. The Rema brought earlier seems to be an example.
LU
“They assumed he was Chareidi because he was learning”
But he wasnt, right? Who cares what an ignorant reporter wrote OF course there are some who dont know the difference. You dont seem to be one of them Im not sure why you are having trouble with this.”
That was just one example. My point was that most people use the term “Chareidi” to refer to anyone seriously Frum as opposed to just using “Dati” without a qualification.
“Having lived here for many years and spoken to many people, this is my definite impression as to how many, if not most Israelis use the term “Chareidi”.”
“Can we agree that the definition changes depending on where you live?”
Do you mean within Israel or Israel vs. America?
I don’t know who made that comment, but I assume that they would differentiate between American elections and Israeli elections.
Who is “they”? This is a boich svarah from IITFT. The Gedolim certainly never said such a thing. In fact, they are on record that you should vote for whomever will give Yeshivos the most money, regardless of the Gimmel Chamuros.
Do you mean within Israel or Israel vs. America?
Israel vs. outside Israel.
I cant say for Israel, but in the US a Gadol has to be very careful about elections
While a Rabbi can endorse anyone they want, they can only do so as an individual. If they do so as the head of a Yeshiva, Shul or any organization they risk losing the non-profit status of that organization.
“I don’t know who made that comment, but I assume that they would differentiate between American elections and Israeli elections.”
“Who is “they”? This is a boich svarah from IITFT. The Gedolim certainly never said such a thing. In fact, they are on record that you should vote for whomever will give Yeshivos the most money, regardless of the Gimmel Chamuros.”
I meant – I don’t know which poster in the CR made that comment, but I assume that that poster was differentiating between Israeli elections and American elections.
AVi K. “The term “Chareidi” to refer to anyone observant was in vogue 100 years ago. Since then the number of labels has grown. “Dati” refers to non-Chareidi frum.”
Which means that the term “Chareidi” came first and was used to refer all Frum people. This (if it’s correct) proves my point that Chareidiism is not a new movement, and Datiism is.
“Do you mean within Israel or Israel vs. America?”
“Israel vs. outside Israel.”
Since the term originated in Israel and is still mainly used in Israel, and the chutznikim are trying to understand how the term is used in Israel, it doesn’t seem to me that it makes sense to do so.
I think that the Americans need to have a better sense of how Israelis use the term before they can start throwing it around and arguing about its meaning.
“I cant say for Israel, but in the US a Gadol has to be very careful about elections”
In EY, it doesn’t seem to be an issue.
“I don’t think there are any Gedolim who say to vote for Meretz.”
“But there are certainly those who will tell you to vote however you feel is best. The Rema brought earlier seems to be an example.”
I don’t think there are Gedolim who would say it’s okay to vote for Meretz.
LU, you left out a category, mine. While my local chareidi community considers me their own, the remnant chiloni neighbors refer to me as “chareidi mezuyaf”. While my wife wore a shaitle and we had other things about us, I very obviously work, generally looking like something crawled up from a swamp. There is widespread belief among the secular that non of us contribute in the workforce. Hence our other name–parazitim.
“In fact, they are on record that you should vote for whomever will give Yeshivos the most money, regardless of the Gimmel Chamuros.”
Would you please tell us which Gadol ever said those words?
And I don’t mean Rebbe, askan, or some generic Broadside
My experience in elections across the NorthEast is otherwise
“As for the claim that no changes having been made since Sinai, this is errant nonsense.”
Of course, “changes” are made all the time. That is exactly the point. Since there are constantly changes, any kind of change doesn’t qualify Judaism as a new movement. If it did, then any kind of Judaism would be a new movement every second. The point is that it is inherent in the defintion of Chareidi or Frum that there are continuous changes, and therefore Jews have always been Chareidi or Frum (despite the type of changes being discussed) and therefore it is not a new movement.
In order to qualify as a new movement, there has to be a change that is a change from the type of changes that take place on a regular basis (that are not really changes since these changes have been taking place since Sinai, and there is no change in the type of change taking place.)
Lilmod, while the Mizrahi (actually there were two until they merged to form the National Religious Party sixty years ago, Mizrahi, which represented the urban middle class, and HaPoel HaMizrahi, which represented the kibbutzim and moshavim) considered Rav Kook to be their posek and he held them in high regard he was never a member of any political movement. His dream was to establish a non-political coalition of all frum people who wanted to work for yishuv Eretz Yisrael to be called Degel Yerushalayim. Unfortunately, he could not find talented organizers and the plan was never actualized. His son, Rav Tzvi Yehuda, never explicitly endorsed any party but gave a beracha to anyone who asked for one as he considered all to have a part of the truth.
Avi K: “Lilmod, you are absolutely wrong. “Dati” is used for someone who is considered (some people talk the talk but in private don’t walk the walk but that is true across the board) a member of the non-Chareidi (or Chareidi Leumi – Chardal) religious public.”
Chardal call themselves Chareidi Leumi, not dati. That is precisely my point. They are calling themselves Chareidi and Leumi – Chareidi describes their religious level and Leumi describes their hashkafa.
ZD: “Most chilonim know the difference between Dati Leumi and Charedim”
If you stick in the word “Leumi” you are describing your hashkafa, and not necessarily your religious level. But if you say “I am Dati (using the word Dati by itself) not Chareidi”, then you are saying that you are less Frum. Hence, my statement that there is no word for fully Frum other than Chareidi.
The word “Dati” is not used by itself to mean fully Frum (or at least rarely), to the best of my knowledge.
One point that may be important to mention here, since this may be where some of the confusion lies. Since Dati means religious, it can include anyone at various levels of religion (although there would have to be a certain minimum), so the term can be used to include Chareidim as well. It’s like saying that if you have two candies, you must also have one candy. Most people who have two candies wouldn’t say that they have one candy, but it can be done. Same here. Technically, someone who is Chareidi could be called Dati but it isn’t normally done. (I suppose it would depend on the context of the conversation). Normally, you would at least add the word Chazak, if not Chareidi.
Avi K: “Lilmod, while the Mizrahi (actually there were two until they merged to form the National Religious Party sixty years ago, Mizrahi, which represented the urban middle class, and HaPoel HaMizrahi, which represented the kibbutzim and moshavim) considered Rav Kook to be their posek and he held them in high regard he was never a member of any political movement. His dream was to establish a non-political coalition of all frum people who wanted to work for yishuv Eretz Yisrael to be called Degel Yerushalayim. Unfortunately, he could not find talented organizers and the plan was never actualized. His son, Rav Tzvi Yehuda, never explicitly endorsed any party but gave a beracha to anyone who asked for one as he considered all to have a part of the truth.”
Avi +1. Thank you for confirming my “svara”. I had thought so, but I wasn’t sure. Someone I know who is very strongly Mizrachi argued with me on that point once, so I wasn’t sure.
LU
“In order to qualify as a new movement, there has to be a change that is a change from the type of changes that take place on a regular basis “
Exactly, however how you define which change is “the type that takes place on a regular basis” and which is “a new movement” new depends on if you support that change.
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