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Is it included in building the sukkah or not?
In my house it is everyone’s job. However since a woman is not mechuyav to eat in the sukkah since it is a mitzvas asai shehhazmon grama……then it should fall on the men.
What’s the basis for decorating the sukkah? Hiddur mitzvah?
Whoever does a better job of it
DovidBT: Based on the passuk זֶ֤ה אֵלִי֙ וְאַנְוֵ֔הוּ. The Mishna Berurah mentions it 627:9
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49628&st=%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%99&pgnum=172
Job?
Decorating the sukkah is the honor and privilege of the man, the woman, and the children.
(Which is why I’m not posting much.)If decorating the סוכה is the cause of contention of whose job it is. Don’t decorate the סוכה. Peace is for sure more important.
Isn’t it usually the kids? I would think that it would make the most sense for either the women or the kids to do it in order to give them an opportunity to participate in the Mitzvos of Sukkos in a way that is matim for them (since it can be seen as both a feminine activity and as a child’s activity).
But really, it should go by whoever wants to do it and is able to find the time for it.
I believe it is the women’s job, but everyone should nevertheless do their part.
Perhaps you should ask why decorating the sucah or ANY other task not specifically mandated under Halacha is defined by gender? Whoever in the family (husband, wife or both) who have the time and requisite skills to perform a task is the one who should do it….too many household tasks get stereotyped by gender unnecessarily. Men are perfectly capable of doing the laundry, cooking for yom tom or toiveling new dishes. Women can build a sucah, buy seforim for the kids or help the kids with their homework, whether secular or limudei torah.
Beauty is in the mitzvah not the decorations that’s why we don’t decorate our sukkas!!!!
770chabad: Since the mitzva is TEISVU KEIN TADURU does that mean you don’t decorate your house either?
I’ve a feeling there are some who don’t decorate their house, but do decorate their sukkah.
It is the job of whoever is the most particular about where the decorations go.
FWIW, I did it this year. Other years, it’s been up to my wife, my kids or myself, depending on who was available.
The Wolf
RebYidd23: What about when the one who is most particular about where the decorations go, is someone who is 90 years old and unable to decorate the sukkah, due to health concerns?
That person may ask someone else to decorate the sukkah for him or her.
We’ve developed a minhag of carving faces in the esrog motzi yom tov and hanging out by the front door like the goyim do with their pumpkins…much more challenging given the smallrt scale…use a hobbyist wood carving knife…most difficult part is getting the payos likelike
Gadolhadorah: Perhaps you should ask why decorating the sucah or ANY other task not specifically mandated under Halacha is defined by gender? … Women can build a sucah…
Actually, it’s not so simple.
According to Rabbeinu Tam in Tosfos Gittin 45, a women cannot create a חפצא דמצוה which she is not commanded to perform. He talks specifically about Tzitzis, Sefer Torah, Mezuzah, Tefillin and Iggud of Lulav. The Rishonim extrapolate that according to the Rabbeinu Tam, she also cannot make a Sukkah. The Beis Yosef (OC”H 14) brings from the Mordechai הל’ קטנות אות תתקמ”ט that although the Sukkah she makes is כשר בדיעבד, she is not allowed to make a Sukkah (which is his position regarding Tefillin and Mezuzah etc.).
There is a Gemara (Sukka 8) which is mefurash that a woman’s Sukkah is Kosher; the Rishonim ask on the Rabbeinu Tam from this Gemara. There are various mehalchim to answer that Gemara – the Beis Yosef learns that it is only בדיעבד, but it is actually אסור. The Yaavetz (Mor UKetzia 14) learns that this is referring to a Sukkah built for women, not a Sukkah built by woman. See also Chasam Sofer Yo”d 271.
To Yekke2…..yasher koach on a very enlightening and informative posting….short, clear and to the point of the thread. Thank you.
Yekke, GHD isn’t exactly interested in Torah sources to refute his views. Citing modern western philosophy is more up his alley.
Joseph – I wasn’t refuting his views.
To Joe…good effort at trolling at trying to start a contemporary broigas….not everyone shares your monolithic and frequently contorted exposition of daas torah but it can always be counted upon for comic relief. If you noted, I congratulated Yekke for a great posting with which I mostly concur
but it can always be counted upon for comic relief
I’m glad somebody else finds it funny. It never ceases to amaze me how annoyed some people get at the more obscure (and dare I say it, predictable) views Joseph expresses. (Not sure why monolithic is a bad thing)
(I’d be interested to hear why it’s only a ‘mostly concur’, by the way.)
GHD: Which part of it did you not “concur” with? The Rabbeinu Tam, the Rishonim, the Gemorah, the Mordechai, the Beis Yosef, the Yaavetz or the Chasam Sofer?
Yekke: It was minimally a partial refutation of the quote of his you bolded “Women can build a sucah…”
A kosher succah is a kosher succah…..is their an inyan of going back to through the construction process to determine who held the hammer and nailed which board, who might have steadied the ladder for the one holding the hammer and who threw the schach on to the roof over the boards which were hammered by someone for whom someone else held the ladder? Not to be too technical but if there are ways to squeeze the joy out of hidur mitzvah, some will recognize no extremes to find that opportunity….
A kosher succah is a kosher succah…..is their an inyan of going back to through the construction process to determine who held the hammer and nailed which board…
A succah made with the wrong intent or by the wrong person is actually not a kosher succah, so there would be an inyan to go back and make sure it was built according to HalachaMany yidden hire goyim to build their Succah for them and perhaps only drop a few branches of schach on the roof to be mekayem the mitzvah. Even then, I recall in masechet succos, we learn that as long as the schach was placed by the goy for the purpose of providing shade, the succah is kosher regardless of who placed it. While the Arizal and others argued that it is certainly preferable for one to personally involve himself in the building of the succah there were writings by Chacham Ovadia and other contemporary gedolim that affirmed the kashruth of a succah built 100 percent by goyim.
Joseph: GHD: Which part of it did you not “concur” with? The Rabbeinu Tam, the Rishonim, the Gemorah, the Mordechai, the Beis Yosef, the Yaavetz or the Chasam Sofer?
When I saw your post I realized that I forgot to write – I don’t think this is an accepted Halachah. I haven’t been into the sugya properly, but the Rishonim reject the Rabbeinu Tam’s view – largely on account of the Gemara in Sukkah 8 which is mefurash that סוכת גנב”ך is Kosher. The Mordechai’s mehalech (that it is only lechatchila) isn’t consistent with the Rabbeinu Tam’s view elsewhere that even בדיעבד, tzitzis made by women are פסול. The Yaavetz’ mehalech is also very shver from Gemara’s which are משמע that סוכת גנב”ך refers to a Sukkah built by a woman, not for a women.
Yekke: It was minimally a partial refutation of the quote of his you bolded “Women can build a sucah…”
You’ll have to learn the difference one day between refuting a view and nitpicking on an example. Gadolhadorah’s view saying that women are as manly as men, and there is no reason to stereotype. I wasn’t getting involved in debating gender roles, stereotypes and feminism in Mitzvos. It just reminded me of the tzad that a woman cannot built a Sukkah, which I posted. Gadolhadorah was justified in sardonically point out the relevance [and lack thereof] to this thread.
A kosher succah is a kosher succah…..
According to the Rishonim’s understanding of the Rabbeinu Tam (many Achronim try to differentiate between the R”T’s cases and Sukkah), it would not be a Kosher Sukkah.
is their an inyan of going back to through the construction process to determine who held the hammer and nailed which board, who might have steadied the ladder for the one holding the hammer and who threw the schach on to the roof over the boards which were hammered by someone for whom someone else held the ladder?
You didn’t have to ‘concur’ with the post, but if you did, how could it not be imperative to ensure the Kashrus of your Sukkah?
Not to be too technical
Torah is very technical. Halachah is very technical. Those who refuse to be technical cannot keep Hilchos Shabbos. Avoidas Hashem is full of details and intricacies.
but if there are ways to squeeze the joy out of hidur mitzvah, some will recognize no extremes to find that opportunity….
Do you really think that depriving a woman the option of building a Sukkah is “squeezing the joy out of Hiddur mitzvah”? And – if that is what you meant – do you honestly think that the reason why a woman would feel deprived is because she doesn’t have the opportunity to perform a hechsher mitzvah, or because it highlights the distinction between Man and Woman in Torah?
after all the fuss, who has to take those decorations down after yom tov?
Whoever is most particular about how the decorations get packed away.
#questionablerelevance
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