Is Dating Tznius?

LF would have made more sense, but I wanted to check

It’s not going to happen. At best they would recommend it, but they wouldn’t demand it from everyone. It’s not realistic, and it’s not applicable for everyone. It’s not applicable for most or many older singles, people from Modern Orthodox families or baalei teshuva or anyone who is from the type of family that would make such a thing awkward.

Additionally, until now I haven’t heard anyone suggest that there is any problem with the current system. And with the shidduch crisis and divorce crisis, I don’t think that making dating more formal and constrained than it already is is going to help.

I think if anything, the solution to those issues is to make dating more casual and certainly not less so. I read an article about how the bas kol that comes out telling people who their zivug is something that the person is supposed to hear inside themselves when they meet their zivug but the problem is that there are too many people telling them what to do so they are not able to hear it.

I think there is a lot of truth to that. I know a family that has a bunch of older single daughters. The mother told me once years ago that she feels a bit guilty because one of her daughters was once going out with someone whom she actually liked and she made her stop going out with him because he only learned half a day. This happened many years ago and both the girl and all of her sisters who were single at the time are still single and they are all in their 30’s or 40’s. I think that changing the system to the way you are suggesting would exacerbate some of these problems.

I could hear where it might make sense to change certain aspects of the dating system (like the part about his picking her up in a car as was discussed in this thread), but I don’t think that everyone should start having sit-ins.

I’m curious as to why you feel so strongly about it. Are there things that you’ve seen or heard that made you feel this way? Why is it such a big deal to meet in a hotel lobby?

Lilmod,

From what I have seen, early dating is as you describe. But as the couple become more relaxed with each other, and/or as the individuals have dated more people, things change. Yes, the less yeshivish you get the worse the problem becomes, but even with BMG boys schok (as I defined it earlier) is the norm not the exception for later dates.

I don’t think these Yeshiva boys and Bais Yakov girls think they are doing anything wrong. They are simply not informed.

lilmod ulelamaid,

Same here

“There is something I have been wondering about. When I first started dating, I was super-uncomfortable, having basically” rarely spoken to a girl

lilmod ulelamaid

Would you explain how you managed?

When our communities sustain an environment that doesn’t allow for any interaction between the two sexes, we are ultimately causing boys and girls to be so completely uncomfortable with each other that the only method that allows them some level of productive interaction is when they’re huddled in the parents’ dining room, with their parents with them.

We continue this trend even once they’re engaged: We discourage too much interaction between them, limit how often they can see each other, and then force an exuberant wedding on them so they don’t have to focus on each other, but rather, the beautiful venue, food, flowers, and untold amounts of needless gashmius. We then continue to distract them from each other for the next week with Sheva Brachos, until finally, reality sets in, and they’re forced to learn how to interact and live together. For some, it’s too late.

“The solution is NOT to let them hang out like Perutzim before Kiddushin.”

GAW, did my post imply that anywhere? Of course I don’t endorse that as a solution.

In reality, there is no one correct method, because people are wired differently. Some need significant interaction and a certain level of comfort before committing to a lifelong relationship. Others can just jump right in and work it out themselves after marriage.

The solution is to know yourself, know what works best for you, and that the people whom you trust and depend on should empower you to follow through with it, and not force you into using a method that you aren’t comfortable with.

When wedding celebrations started having separate seating as de rigueur

Rav Joseph Breuer was perturbed .He asked'”How else are young men and young ladies going to meet “

Separate seating today is proper and good ,but probably there should be a mixed smorgasbord or something for those in their 20s & ready for shidduchim in a another room

In reality, there is no one correct method, because people are wired differently. Some need significant interaction and a certain level of comfort before committing to a lifelong relationship. Others can just jump right in and work it out themselves after marriage.

The solution is to know yourself, know what works best for you, and that the people whom you trust and depend on should empower you to follow through with it, and not force you into using a method that you aren’t comfortable with.

As long as it is L’Toeles and not S’chok, I have no issues. You seemed to bring up the old argument that boys need to interact with girls in order to be comfortable when dating, which is hogwash.

For all of you who are advocating essentially only having beshows, did you have one? Or do you plan to have one when you start dating? If you didn’t and don’t plan to, then stop advocating for it. Very simple. You just sound delusional and hypocritical- if you are saying that the current dating system is wrong and yet you’re not willing to do what you think is right.

Either follow through with what you’re saying is right or please stop talking.

“Laughing and joking and fun is not the “S’chok V’Kalas Rosh” that we are discussing.”

Actually, I thought that was what Benignuman had been talking about. I also thought that you had agreed with him, but apparently I was wrong about that.

If that’s not what he meant, I wish he would clarify. I thought that he was saying that having fun on a date is by definition “s’chok v’kalus rosh”, and I thought the discussion here was about whether or not it’s okay to have fun on a date as opposed to just sitting in your parents’ living room having a boring conversation.

Not that there is anything at all wrong with the latter if it works for people, but it seems to me that there are people for whom it doesn’t work.

How exactly are you defining “schok v’kalus rosh” if that’s not what you meant?

“So you believe the real problem is that boys are not getting appropriate hadracha from either their parents or their Yeshiva.”

Correct. What they are getting instead is an unequivocal message that having any interaction with women is wrong on all accounts (save, perhaps, for immediate family), and then they are suddenly thrust into a world of dating where they are expected to have meaningful and productive conversation with a woman they don’t know.

He seemed to be saying that just having fun and/or laughing on a date were problematic.

And Benignuman was Modeh that I may have a point. See earlier in the thread.

His concern that a couple will flirt once they know they are getting married.

I can’t speak for your doppelganger Joseph 🙂

On the subject of dating.

First we have to admit that yichud is prohibited.

There can be no lieniency on this point.

Furthermore the prohibition of yichud dating is veharag Val yavor.

We have to withdraw from this type of dating as soon as possible.

Having made that point it’s important to note that there is a shiduch crises going on and we need to find solutions before it gets worse.

There are kosher dating alternatives for our generation.

I believe speed dating events organized and supervised by our rabbinical leadership can solve the problem.

Someone said yeshives couples have fewer divorces.

That maybe true but it doesn’t indicate these couples have happy marriages

It may indicate these couples have unhappy marriages but are staying together for the sake of the children or the fact that divorce is often more painful then staying together.

A Talmud chacham actions are more rational then emotional.

“if there is no rebuttal to my controversial statements then according to the Talmud I must be right”

Or people might be sleeping/getting ready for Shabbos. Don’t ask what I’m doing here.

“Those frumies who pressure people into quickie marriages should be put into chairim (excommunicated)” (kitov)

kitov: It’s not just certain individuals. It’s cultural pressure. It’s societal pressure to get married or else you cannot participate in x, y, z, aleph, and so on.

Unless unmarried men in his community also wear tallis gadols, a man needs to otherwise be married to done one in shul.

Not being married is a very obvious thing for Jewish men and women who want to be a part of a community. Being married opens one up to social and economical benefits.

The people doing the pushing are just a reflection of the greater pressure to be coupled up and have this Jewish life of family and children to get to the next level.

At least that’s how I see it.

“Or people might be sleeping/getting ready for Shabbos.”

Or keeping Shabbos, and then sleeping through the Taanis.

benignuman – I’m using the Shach’s language of “Margilin L’Ervah” in YD 195. So yes, that does depend on intent in many scenarios. The source (Avos D’Rav Nassan) compares it to Chibuk V’Nishuk.

Where I think we disagree is that having fun together is bolstering the “non-platonic”ness of the relationship, just because the relationship will culminate in a non-platonic fashion (hopefully). One can and should bolster the “platonic” aspect of a relationship even when they are married (during certain times .), and that doesn’t mean a couple can’t talk and laugh together as long is it is not “Margilin L’Ervah” (For example, one tells over something funny that their child did that day).

GAW,

My understanding is that schok is assur because it is a type of activity that is margilin l’erva. It is a gezeira that applies to people even if they are certain that it won’t be margil them. (?????? ???????? ??????, ??????? ????????? ?????, ???????????? ????????? (Avos 3:13)). If a gezeira only applies to the action when it is undertaken with the intent of being margil l’erva, then just say it is assur to be margil l’erva. Remember chibuk v’nishuk with ishto niddah is assur even without any intent.

The Shach is explaining kalus rosh with words. He is saying that if these are the types of words that are margilin l’erva, it is assur, regardless of any actual intent to be margil. I think you’re better argument is that this type of fun is objectively not schok. But that begs the question of what activities would constitute schok.

With respect to married couples, because they are already married the are not trying to laugh and have fun together to strengthen (or create) their non-platonic relationship, they are just going about their regular day. But to go out on a date-night to an arcade b’es niddasa would be assur.

GAW,

The difference is not intent (subjective) but context (objective). Playing arcades with your sister-in-law on an outing with your wife and children there is not ???????, but playing the same arcades on an outing just the two of you would probably be schok. The difference isn’t the type of Erva but the context. Do you think that it is mutar to have a date-night at an arcade with ishto niddah? If not, how is a dating couple different?

I believe that the “dibbur” in the Ramah and the Shach is going on Kalush Rosh and the point is that flirtatious talk with an Erva is assur even there is no actual intent to be margil. For example, some salesmen will give inappropriate compliments to female customers in an attempt to make a sale. That would still be kalus rosh.

A “non-platonic manner” is when the actions themselves or the context around them indicate that the purpose of this laughing and having fun is not just for the fun itself but to create, strengthen, or maintain a non-platonic relationship.

To answer your question it is not automatically a “non-platonic manner” when dealing with an Ervah. It depends on the context as I described earlier.

GAW,

I am not sure how to interpret that Biur HaGRA and the quote from Avos D’Reb Nosson. Chibuk v’Nishuk is an issur d’oraisa (according to the Shulchan Aruch) from the posuk of “lo sikrivu” but dibur, even of kalus rosh and schok, is only assur m’drabbanan. But the Avos D’Reb Nosson cited by the GRA conflates them.

One of my main points in my original post on this subject, and where I thought the most contention would be, was that there is no heter of “l’toeles” for ??????? ????????? ?????. The “l’toeles” heter brought down in the Shulchan Aruch is specifically for histaklus.

Note: You haven’t answered my question about date-night with ishto nidda.

LU,

In which Country were did your dating experiences happen?

benignuman – Thank you. I will have to go through the Davar Moshe (Siman 66) thoroughly.