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Person 1,
I would recommend looking up the Shulchan Aruch, and the Rambam it is based on to see if you pshat in “schok and kalus rosh” works. Additionally, the same terminology is used by ???? ???, which is certainly not a forbidden relationship.
Lilmod,
Not talking to women more than necessary is based on the Mishna in Avos “Al tarbeh sicha im ha’isha.” But that, like many things in Avos, is understood as a midas chasidus or good religious advice. It is not brought down in halacha and is, as you said a “grey area.” Schok and Kalus Rosh are types of talking/playing/interacting that are forbidden with arayos. While there is some grey on the margins of what is considered Schok and Kalus Rosh, it seems to me that many boys dating even from good yeshivos go well over the grey line into clearly prohibited areas.
Dave & Busters is an arcade/bar/poolhall for classier clientel then a typical arcade/bar/poolhall.
WinnieThePooh,
Once against “tznius” is not the right word to use here. A Rosh Yeshiva, if he knew what those places are, would not tell a talmud it was mutar because the whole purpose of such places is schok, which is asur to engage in with the girl.
You might be right that he would also tell him that it is not the right environment for a Yeshiva boy altogether (although that is a “grey area”), but from the fact that so many Yeshiva boys, from top yeshivos, take girls there on dates, tells you that either the Rosh Yeshiva don’t know what these places are, don’t know that their boys are going there, or are looking the other way because of “mutav sheyiyu shogagim.”
Dave & Busters is like Chuck E Cheese for adults.
From what I remember from a one-time decade ago, you can play games and video games, collect tickets to exchange for prizes.
Imho, it was loud, distracting, and triangulated any attempt at personal conversation.
On the flipside, maybe because it is more casual, requires movement and limited bursts of attention, maybe it helps time pass quicker compared to a date that may be awkward and long if there was no chemistry. It at least makes for a good excuse to go to such a venue.
I have never been a yeshiva bochur who was faced with going on a series of dates. Maybe they take the dates that they still like after D&B someplace where they can get to know each other better.
Also… maybe the bochurim want to see the girl in action. See how they work together to pick an activity, respond to rejection if they lose, etc things that may occur organically in such a setting.
benignuman- if so many of the Rosh Yeshiva are not protesting loudly to choice of dating venues, maybe there is simply nothing wrong with those venues at all.
BigGolem,
I should make clear that my issue is not with the venues themselves as much as what dates do at those venues. Theoretically, one could just walk around Chelsea Piers and have serious conversations without playing together. But normally the dates play together at these venues (and others) in order to have fun and laugh together; which is forbidden by Chazal.
I don’t think that most boys even know that this is problem. Very few Yeshiva bochurim have ever learned Even HaEzer 21:1 and/or realized that the girls they are dating have the status of arayos. Remember, they don’t usually learn hilchos niddah until after they are engaged.
Theoretically, one could just walk around Chelsea Piers and have serious conversations without playing together. But normally the dates play together at these venues (and others) in order to have fun and laugh together; which is forbidden by Chazal.
What definition are you using for “???? and ???? ???”, and from where are you sourcing it?
I am understanding “???? and ???? ???” as meaning flirtatious talking or behavior (???? ???) and playing or having fun in a non-platonic manner (“????”).
I am sourcing it primarily from the meforshim on Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah 195:1 and Avos 3:13 and Rabbeinu Yonah thereon. My understanding of kalos rosh also comes from the way Rav Moshe uses it when discussing the need for a mechitza.
I am understanding “???? and ???? ???” as meaning flirtatious talking or behavior (???? ???) and playing or having fun in a non-platonic manner (“????”).
I agree (YD 195:1 was my source as well, especially the Shach there). Why do you assume that playing a game is not “platonic” in nature or is flirtatious? I can play a game with Ittisa and other members of my/her family (who are certainly Ervah, even without Niddah) in a platonic fashion. Fun does not equal “???? and ???? ???”.
Or are we assuming the worst of most Bochrim?
P.S. Do you know which Shailah Rav MOshe discusses it? Thanks.
I’m not sure how this plays into this but I’ve asked my Rebbe regarding complimenting the girls on dates and such because I was concerned that it might be inappropriate/assur. His response was “do what’s normal and expected of you”. Regarding how many times to go out during the engagement period, he said every person is different and there isn’t a set rule. Do what feels right. Basically do whatever is normal and be sensitive to the girls needs because there is no one size fits all. If this was a clear cut assur I’m sure my Rebbe wouldn’t have told me that. This is a gray area which depends on the circumstances. I think you could apply this to much of the conversation above.
(My Rebbe is not from cc so dont make any assumptions)
GAW,
It seems to me that dating by definition is non-platonic activity. The whole purpose of dating is to find someone to marry and to create a non-platonic relationship. I agree that fun does not equal ????, but playing together in the context of dating does.
I don’t know where the teshuva is off-hand. If I have time I will look it up tonight.
Benignuman: “GAW, It seems to me that dating by definition is non-platonic activity.”
Which is exactly why I have an issue with the following two sentences:
“and playing or having fun in a non-platonic manner (“????”).”
“… because the whole purpose of such places is schok, which is asur to engage in with the girl.”
If: A. Schok = having fun in a non-platonic manner
and B. A date by definition is non-platonic.
Then,C: it can’t be assur to have “schok” on a date.
The whole idea of a date is that it’s not platonic, so it has to be okay to have a non-platonic relationship for the purpose of marriage. Unless you think that everyone’s parents should marry them off and no one should date at all, but the Gedolim are certainly not saying that (and they do know that people date even if they don’t know exactly what they do on dates).
Also, I was always taught that “there’s no such thing as a platonic relationship” which is why men and women are not allowed to talk to each other more than necessary (but if it’s necessary it’s allowed even though it can’t be platonic).
you guys have it all wrong. your ideas are misconstrued. the way you approach shidduchim is by falling in love with that perfect soul that hashem set aside for you from birth. however it happens is perfectly fine.
So, for example if I meet someone and we get to know each other while we are both beating my neighbor with live chickens from the nearby poultry market?
Hashkafahmaster, And what if it happens in a way that is clearly completely assur (as opposed to what’s being discussed in this thread which doesn’t necessarily fall in that category)?
The ends doesn’t always justify the means.
?
LU- Hashkafahmaster, And what if it happens in a way that is clearly completely assur (as opposed to what’s being discussed in this thread which doesn’t necessarily fall in that category)?
The ends doesn’t always justify the means.
I think what is meant is that since dating is needed to get married and marriage is a prerequisite for having children which is a Mitzvah and since someone doing a Mitzvah will not be harmed. Similarly someone doing a prerequisite for a mitzvah (dating) wouldn’t be harmed. Or he may hold since the boy is looking for his rib it might be a case of Ha Shovas Aviadah which is also a Mitzvah and there is no assur.
The question is does a positive commandment override a negative commandment in this case?
“The question is does a positive commandment override a negative commandment in this case?”
You’re never allowed to. At least not in the way that you’re talking about. It would be a “Mitzvah haba al yedei aveirah” and it’s assur, like using a stolen Lulav.
In any case, the concept doesn’t even apply here. Dating is not a Mitzvah in and of itself. It’s hishtadlus. It would be like working on Shabbos in order to earn a parnassah.
Hishtadlus is not allowed to be done by means of an aveirah.
In terms of your first paragraph, the implication is that one is allowed to deliberately commit an aveirah for the purpose of finding one’s zivug. That has nothing to do with “shiluchei Mitzvah ainan nizokin”.
LU:”If: A. Schok = having fun in a non-platonic manner
and B. A date by definition is non-platonic.
Then,C: it can’t be assur to have “schok” on a date.”
Thank you! Exactly what I thought. And I happen to think points A and B to be true, which makes C true as well.
It seems to me that dating by definition is non-platonic activity. The whole purpose of dating is to find someone to marry and to create a non-platonic relationship. I agree that fun does not equal ????, but playing together in the context of dating does.
The idea of dating is to create a relationship, not a “relations”ual relationship. Just because the end result will be marriage does not make the current relationship a “relations”ual relationship.
So it seems my argument is with point “B”, that a date by definition is not platonic. One can have fun and build a close relationship (as recommended by many Rabbonim) without flirting.
edited
“I actually heard that there was a Rav who said that people should go out at least 8 times
Rav M Bick said it ,over 4+ decades ago
Was Tu B’Av (Girls going out) Tznius?
“If: A. Schok = having fun in a non-platonic manner
and B. A date by definition is non-platonic.
Then,C: it can’t be assur to have “schok” on a date.”
C does not follow from the premises A & B. Creating a non-platonic relationship is not the issur. The gezeira is having fun/playing together in a non-platonic way or flirting because such activities are ??????? ?????.
GAW,
I hear your chiluk. Maybe that works. I will think about it.
It is Time,
The girls going out on Tu B’A (and Yom Kippur) were presumably penuyos tohoros (because in those days even single girls were toivel), which our girls are not. The gezeira only applies to arayos.
The girls going out on Tu B’A (and Yom Kippur) were presumably penuyos tohoros (because in those days even single girls were toivel), which our girls are not.
If Chazal cared enough to make the girls borrow clothing not to embarrass those who did not have, Kal V’Chomer they were careful not to embarrass the girls who were Niddos and identify them to their peers and townspeople.
GAW,
In those days everyone would wear different clothing when they were Niddos. People needed to know for tumah and tahara. See, e.g., Kiddushin 80a, Rashi d”h ?????? ??? ?????????. Therefore there would have been no additional embarrassment.
GAW- If Chazal cared enough to make the girls borrow clothing not to embarrass those who did not have, Kal V’Chomer they were careful not to embarrass the girls who were Niddos and identify them to their peers and townspeople.
As long as a female hasn’t been immersed in a Mikvah she remains a Niddah. Since single females now a days only go to the Mikvah right before their marriage they should all be considered a Niddahs. Besides who says in those day the Niddahs danced on the 15th of Av maybe they didn’t participate.
LU- “The question is does a positive commandment override a negative commandment in this case?”
You’re never allowed to.”
An example is Yebom. Where the commandment to marry his brother’s wife if their was no child overrides, the prohibition of not marrying your brother’s wife even though the negative commandment has Koras, which is a serious punishment. Your Issur is only a takonah, a rabbinic prohibition and was it even instituted during dating for marriage purposes. If there really was a prohibition how come there are Kol Korah against concerts but none against dating.
Thanks for all the upvotes LU. Didn’t find time until now.
@lilmod the ends would definitely justify the means when you end up with that perfect woman. dating should be taken seriously and done with caution however in order to find that true match you have to go and get her.
The Chabad Rebbe of blessed memory said that a person needs to look for one’second beshert like looking for a lost object.
Sometimes for me that means turning things around and scattering what was once organized around the room. It could mean calling people to ask if they saw it. Describing it to people. Taking time from other matters just to keep looking. Asking others to help search.
All of which blur the boundaries of what was otherwise orderly and normal.
The question is whether or not this is mutter and tznius. Maybe it is similar to asking if it’s okay to throw stuff around the room and make a mess. Normally no. It’s disrespectful and a waste of time. Perhaps here HM613’s point is valid.
Meanwhile it is important to note that there is no perfect woman or man. Maybe someone who is perfectly imperfect for someone else and vice versa.
Person1 – thank you for sticking up for me at the beginning of the thread. Sorry I didn’t say anything until now.
I pretty much stopped sticking up for myself once I realized there was no point, but I appreciate it when others do it for me (especially when I feel like I can’t do it for myself).
Hashkafamaster, your last post kind of contradicts this post:
It also contradicts every single mussar sefer, halacha sefer and common sense. So if I kill someone in order to find the perfect man, it’s ok? That would be one way to solve the shidduch crisis.
Aww LU! ? You are awesome. Hope you always feel confident about posting. I love your posts.
In your response to HM613, I can see how doing whatever it takes to find one’s soulmate has limits according to Torah.
Breaking into someone else’s house to search for lost keys is not exactly what the Rebbe meant when he encouraged people to search tirelessly for their besherts.
LB- I am considering stopping soon.
Thanks LB! You’re the best!
LU: Stopping what?
posting here. I would have stopped already last night, but there are reasons why I may not be able to stop until the end of the week.
Awwww. You’ll be missed.
I’ve considered too. Seriously. For me to invest more time seeking community and acceptance IRL.
Thing is that for me, before and currently, the CR has helped and helps me a lot. To grow as a person.
The person I was when I first started posting is a lot more confident today, in speaking my mind and growing in Yiddishkeit, thanks to the CR and CR posters.
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LU: Honor yourself so you can honor Hashem ?
If it’s not good for you then def do what is best for you. Your presence here will still be felt through your former posts. New posters hopefully will find strength in them too.
Sometimes we are someplace for a reason and when it’s time we have someplace else to be. You are always welcome here now and in the future.
Posting here is not all or nothing. You can post frequently or infrequently.
RebYidd23 +1
There’s a beautiful story I read that I’d like to relate soon, about this topic. ??”? when I have more time.
Video of Interest: Oorah’s Founder, Rabbi Chaim Mintz Is Asked ‘Can I Go On A Date With A Minivan?’
I thought those that posted on this site would find this interesting.
Please note: Rav Chaim Mintz did not even suggest that it might be a problem to be driving with a girl on a date.
Probably more than you are (no offense).
In any case, I didn’t really mean it as proof that one can’t decide that the way dating is done is problematic and should be changed.
The arguments would be:
1. When asked a question, I think the general rule is that you are supposed to respond to what is being asked and not to what is not being asked. Like the ignorant 14 year old baal teshuva who asked his Rav if he’s allowed to go to dances during the Nine Days and was simply told “no”. He went to Yeshiva the next year and eventually figured out for himself that it’s always assur.
2. As I think was already said (maybe by you?), the Rabbanim don’t come out against everything; sometimes we are supposed to figure things out for ourselves. Especially if we are not talking about a halachic issue.
Thank you for sharing. I think you are now disqualified from your site. Actually, you always were.
LA +1
who’s LA?
Probably Little me. With half a typo
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