Is Dating Tznius?

Joseph: “

American yeshivish bochorim, by and large, do not have their own cars. They usually borrow their father’s car or rent a car for the date. So the fact that the Eretz Yisroel yeshivish bochorim don’t drive their dates is a deliberate decision. They could’ve also borrowed a parents or relatives car or rented one. But they b’davka do not”

Please when you’re speculating about a country and a sociaty you don’t live in have the decency to add words like “seems like” and “probably”.

Rav Moshe says it is permitted to take public transportation if necessary (Iggerot Moshe, Even HaEzer, 2:14). All of these far-out chumrot are gezerot that almost none of the public can keep. The result of pushing them will be a light attitude towards real halachot. This, in fact, is happening in Israel with the craze to find a way for everything to be under the prohibition of kitniyot during Pesach. Next they wil claim that an Ashkenazi can’t talk to a Sephardi because he might have kitniyot on his breathe.

“Rav Moshe says it is permitted to take public transportation if necessary”

Emphasis on the words, “if necessary”. According to Chazal if someone takes a route that involves seeing people untzniusly dressed and he had another option, he is a rasha.

In any case, the point of this discussion is to figure out the best option. If the whole purpose of his taking public transportation rather than driving the girl is to be more tznius and meanwhile it’s actually less tznius, that would defeat the point.

(I have not read the this entire thread so maybe this has already been said)

The issue with dating is not one of “tznius,” it is one of halacha. Unfortunately, we no longer maintain tahara for terumos, chalah, or eating chullin. As such all of our unmarried girls are ervos d’oraisa (???). It is clear halacha in the Shulchan Aruch that one is not allowed to laugh/play with ????? or be lightheaded/frivilous/flirtatious with ?????. Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 21:1.

The Shulchan Aruch does say that it is mutar to stare at a ????? to decide whether you would like to marry her. Even assuming that this is not referring to a penuyah tahorah, this heter is limited to histaklus. There is no heter for ???? and ???? ???. And yet, this is what goes on on most dates after the first (assuming things are “going well”).

Finally, even if one argues that nowadays we need to extend the heter of Chazal to ???? and ???? ??? (which I don’t see how we could do, lacking a Sanhedrin), there is no basis for allowing such things once the young couple have made a decision to get married. How is it that young couples continue to date when they “unofficially” and “officially” engaged?

There is no heter for ???? and ???? ???. And yet, this is what goes on on most dates after the first (assuming things are “going well”).

This is a good point. Each date should be L’Toeles, not for “???? and ???? ???”. If one gets to the point where the dates are “flirtatious”, the the couple needs to scale back.

I would hope in Yeraim communities where dating is L’Toeles, there is not ???? and ???? ???.

“How is it that young couples continue to date when they “unofficially” and “officially” engaged?”

They only see or speak to each other to the extent that their Roshei Yeshivas allow.

DaMoshe and Person1,

Though you guys are right, there is no point calling out Joseph. When he sees arguments that he can’t refute or are inconvient to the point he is making, he simply ignores them. Probably because he’s a bored 15 year old Yeshiva bachur. Don’t bother waiting for him to respond to your points.

OMG LOL. It’s hilarious that people still take Joseph seriously, and even try to engage in discussion with him.

Joseph, I agree with you 100% that the more Yeshivish the community the less divorces (in general, imho). In fact, that is why I always get upset when people attack the more Yeshivish ways of dating as though they are to blame for the rising divorce rate.

BUT, I think that there is a big difference between saying that the more Yeshivish/Chassidish ways are the reason for the high divorce rate (which as you pointed out does not seem to be substantiated by the facts), and saying that there are people who would be better off going out more often or in different ways.

As I keep pointing out, these things are very individual and everyone has to do what’s right for him/her.

One thing that is bothering me about this conversation: If it’s untznius for people to go out more than a handful of times, or to have more casual dates (even though it’s for toeles), why is it okay for men to be talking to women online (and telling them that the way they date is untznius)?

Personally, I think that both things fall in grey areas of halacha, which doesn’t mean that there is no right and wrong, but it does mean that it depends on the individual and the situation and therefore only the person himself can make his own cheshbonos (by weighing the ideal against the reality).

I totally agree with you that dating has to be as tznius as possible, but it also has to be effective, and what that necessitates is different for everyone.

Person1 –

“Please when you’re speculating about a country and a sociaty you don’t live in have the decency to add words like “seems like” and “probably”. “

Yup. I have been wanting to make that same disclaimer to a few other posters as well. And additionally this one:

“Please, when speculating about something that happens in New York can you please have the decency NOT to write words implying it applies to Jews in general or everyone (ie, it is accepted that…, the way it is done is…, in any shul you will find…)”

“I agree with you 100% that the more Yeshivish the community the less divorces (in general, imho).”

How do we know this? Are there numbers to back it up?

“One thing that is bothering me about this conversation: If it’s untznius for people to go out more than a handful of times, or to have more casual dates (even though it’s for toeles), why is it okay for men to be talking to women online (and telling them that the way they date is untznius).”

Lilmod,

I don’t mean to pick on you but one of my pet peeves about words like “tznius” and the overly broad way they are used in our circles is that it obfuscates what is “grey area” as you put it, and what is black on white halacha pesuka. Schok and Kalus rosh with arayos is a gezeira d’rabbanan for which the punishment is lashes (makos mardos).

Talking to women online in a manner that is not schok or kalus rosh is not forbidden by a gezeira. It might be in some circumstances and among some communities “untzniusdik” according to their standards. But that sort of “tznius” is an organic concept of Daas Yehudis, something that fluctuates and changes with the time and place. The two cannot be compared.

Just because you feel it is necessary for singles to engage in schok and kalus rosh is insufficient to be mevatel a gezeiras chazal. It would take very broad shoulders to declare a horaas shoh.

People often derive happiness from living a meaningful life

What if less divorces = marriage for a cause = contentment in the struggle

Joseph,

Yes, I agree that is preferable. I don’t think it is mandatory because I think that there is median between modern dating in the Yeshiva world and the Chasidish model that is mutar.

WinniethePooh,

That is a good question. Maybe there is someone big out there who has declared a horaas shoh that everyone is relying on. But I suspect that the Roshei Yeshiva do not know what goes on typical dates (outside of the very Yeshivish) after the first one or two. I have hard time believing that any Rosh Yeshiva would tell his talmid that it is mutar to take a girl to Dave & Busters or Chelsea Piers. When I was in the parsha it never even occurred to me to ask.

“I think the comment about not taking Joseph seriously was a bit offensive. I see no reason not to take his comments in this thread seriously.”

Oh, I didn’t just mean in this thread, I meant all the time.

“You may disagree (as I do to some extent), but there it is no reason not to take him seriously. I think that his comments were meant seriously and were l’sheim Shamayim out of a sincere concern for tznius.”

I think years worth of trying to stir the pot, living under a dozen usernames, and avoiding all comments that uproot his twisted logic are enough of a reason to never take him seriously.

But by all means, continue to engage him in conversation. It provides me with pages of hilarious content.

Perhaps people don’t go to “interesting” date destinations because it’s fun. In fact I doubt it’s fun at all*. Maybe they do that because they haven’t managed to open up in the more conventional settings.

In any case I have to say we’ve gone a long way from “is dating tznius” to “you shouldn’t go to Dave and Busters on your date”. Maybe if the OP had put it this way readers would have taken him more seriously. Than again, maybe being taken seriously was not the objective in the first place.

As to the main discussion: maybe Schok and Kalus Rosh is understood to refer to a type of forbidden relationship or interaction, rather than forbidden acts (like eating chomez on pesach) If you crack jokes with a female worker in your office, that’s a very different kind of interaction than making the same jokes with someone whom you consider marying in three monthes. I suspect that if someone can’t see that they have never been on a chareidi date.

* Personally I don’t really find dating to be fun, unless you get married at the end. It’s a very short lives fun in any case.

Person1 +1! For your entire post, but especially the first paragraph. That was exactly the point I was trying to make. Especially if people see that the regular way of dating hasn’t worked, then they may need to do something different.

And by different, I mean going to the zoo or playing a board game and going out more than 4 times if they need to.

And btw, what are Dave & Busters and Chelsea Piers?

Person1 :”* Personally I don’t really find dating to be fun, unless you get married at the end.”

+ 1,000! Torture would probably be a better word.

With regard to happy marriages and reducing divorces, I think one’s attitude and conduct after the chuppa is much more important than how many dates happened beforehand, or what kind of dates, etc. There is no magical formula to plug in before a marriage that guarantees success. That’s a fairy tale, and all fairy tales end before the real love story begins. A spouse must wake up each and every morning and actively decide to be committed to his/her marriage.

Big Golem:

“So let’s assume that it is in fact true. Does fewer divorces automatically mean happier marriages?”

no not necessarily. I was commenting on Joseph’s comment. He specified both – happier marriages and fewer divorces. My understanding was that he was listing both as two different things, both of which SEEM to be found more often in the Yeshivish world (not that one is necessarily proof of the other). When I agreed with him, that is what I was agreeing with.

“lilmod ulelamaid- I don’t think anyone has numbers to back it up. It’s an assumption we all make because it’s something we want to believe is true. The frummer we are = the more restrictive the dating is = less divorce.”

I wasn’t basing it on that. I was mainly basing it on what I see. Additionally, I do think that people who are more “Yeshivish” the way I define the term would be more likely to have better marriages (in general). I wasn’t saying that this is because the way they date is more restrictive. I was simply saying that I don’t think it makes sense to attribute the rise in divorce to the Yeshivish method of dating (which doesn’t mean that it’s impossible that there can be improvements made in it). My main point was really this last one – that was the context of my statements.

“Chelsea Piers is a sports arena where they have bowling and some other sporting activities. The other place I haven’t heard of.”

Thanks for answering. Sounds like fun – too bad it’s in the US and I can’t go there.

benignuman: “I have hard time believing that any Rosh Yeshiva would tell his talmid that it is mutar to take a girl to Dave & Busters or Chelsea Piers.”

because of tznius or because these places are not the right environment for a yeshiva boy to be in at all? I remember a date I had a long time ago when the boy took me to a pool place. It was a horrible place filled with people I did not want to be around, I felt so uncomfortable, nor was I impressed when my date happily showed off his pool playing skills but didn’t care at all that I had no idea how to even hold the stick.

lightbrite: “Maybe they have an idea but look the other way because they have bigger battles and it’s better to tolerate it than risk pushing people away from Yiddishkeit.”

If this is really an issue of potential arayos, and big tznius concerns, they would not be looking away. I don’t think yeshiva bochurim will be pushed away from Yiddishkeit if they couldn’t go out bowling with a date.

“They may be in a tough predicament. If they prevent young people, hormones and all, from dating as they currently do, then their talmidim may grow resentful.”

Yet there are plenty of rules that the rabbonim set up for during the engagement, as to frequency and purpose of seeing each other. The bochurim understand that these rules are set up for a very good reason.

LB, from your comment, I am not sure how much experience you have with Yeshiva style dating. whether it is in a lounge or a park or the zoo or someone’s living room, it is by its nature formal. The point of a more relaxed setting or a fun date is to get the person to feel more comfortable being him/herself, to facilitate meaningful conversation. It is not an allowance to hormones, and any date that is, is definitely not a tznius one and would never be sanctioned by the rabbonim.