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Little Froggie- Then I apologize for being harsh.
Joseph: “amusement park, bowling, ice skating, restaurant, sightseeing, etc.? I dunno. The yeshivish oilem doesn’t seem to do that in Eretz Yisroel”
There’s no disputing dating in E”Y is more conservative, but you should remember that The yeshivish oilem in E”Y rarely go to ice-skating or bowling at all, not only on dates. For many even restaurants are out of the question (depending on how yeshivish we’re talking about)
Parks are a very common destination for a date in E”Y too.
If a guy can get a car it’s perfectly normal to drive the girl tofrom the date, (and I’m not talking about “modern” guys) but it’s never a requirement like with you. In any case the guy would order a cab for the girl and accompany her home (unless distance would not allows)
LU – “My feeling in general on this topic is that everyone is different and everyone needs to do things the way that works for them, and people shouldn’t be so quick to judge the way others do things.”
+1
But I don’t think you’ll get much support on this from J et al. Tough crowd. And I include myself. I’m probably more tolerant than most around here and I still find myself occasionally being judgmental. We are products of our upbringing, for better and worse.
why should it be untznius ? every guy meets hus wife before???
Person1, you have a problem with me?? Join the crowd…
Seriously, you’re coming in middle of a convo, (a dif thread)
“Is Dating Tznius?”
That’s kind of like asking “Is wearing clothing tznius?” or “Is making a wedding tznius?”
There’s a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it.
Just pointing out that Joseph has continued to ignore LU’s question about how Joseph met his wife… Hey Joseph, we need the chizuk. Please tell us how you met your wife. I’d hate to imagine that you’re someone that talks big on the forums, but in reality doesn’t actually practice what you preach.
Please tell us how your arranged marriage took place. Chanukah is coming and we need your story to inspire us and help us fight the secular influences around us.
Of all the questions, criticisms, craziness, you can bring up when discussing the shidduch processes, your main concern is a possible lack of tznius?
That ain’t at all what he said.
Joseph,
So did you go out on any dates? Did you have a beshow?
You are the spiritual leader of the CR so we need to know exactly what you did- so we can emulate you.
“In any case the guy would order a cab for the girl and accompany her home (unless distance would not allows)”
Reminds me of a funny shidduch story (I know it’s not the right thread):
I went out with a guy who was more Israeli than American. He told me that the girls he goes out with sometimes think he’s cheap because he doesn’t take them home by taxi. One time he went out with a girl and she ordered a taxi for herself (instead of taking a bus). She got really upset when he asked if he get a ride in the taxi since his house was on the way and she was ordering a taxi anyhow.
Another time, a guy I went out with ordered a taxi for himself but not for me.
After reading a number of these posts I am wondering if the issue is Tznius or Yichud?
I am curious about your statement about taxis, Person1. I don’t know what nationality you are (American, Israeli or other), but in my dating experience in Israel, the guys don’t order taxis for me; I take the bus home.
I mostly go out with Americans though, not Israelis. From a few conversations I’ve had with people (including the story in my above post as well as your comment), I have the impression that maybe by Israelis, it is more the norm to order a taxi. I know two girls (one was born here and the other came when she was starting high school) who told me that they would be really upset if a guy didn’t get a taxi for them.
I was very surprised by that! Do you know if that’s really the norm by Israelis?
The truth is that I have usually lived in far-out places so a taxi would have been expensive, but I think this was the case even when I lived more centrally.
Where is there a yichud problem? You mean in the car?
“Possible lack of tznius is no biggie?”
maskim.
LU: my nationality is Israeli, and I was talking about the way yeshivish people in Israel date, and yes it’s the norm as long as it’s in the same city. Why are you so surprised by that?
Usually they say the reason for this is so the girl will have some privacy and won’t be seen by everybody getting back from a date (if you live in a chareidi neibghourhood you’ll understand) I don’t know if that’s really the reason.
I suppose Americans living in Israel do things differently. Also maybe at a certain age guys do things less by the book, which is probably a blessing (except for the taxi)
I know some girls would prefer getting home by bus (as in real life they would never order a taxi for anything) but they’re too shy to say anything.
I don’t get it. how can you meet someone for an hour, or even 2 or 3, and then decide you want to live with them for the rest of your life?!?!
“Why are you so surprised by that?”
I was surprised by the girls who thought the guy was cheap for not ordering a taxi. In my circles, it’s not done, and I certainly wouldn’t think someone is cheap if they didn’t.
I mainly date chutznikim, so they probably do things differently. I am referring to all my years of dating even when I was younger. However, when I was younger, most of the guys I dated were not really Yeshivish, and the ones who were Yeshivish were usually bt, so that might also be different.
Also, most of the time I was either living in a dorm or a girls’ apartment. Maybe it’s different when the girl is living at home.
Disclamer: My comments about dating in EY are mainly based on my own experiences, and I am not in typical Israeli Yeshivish circles. My circles are basically “American singles living in Israel on their own of somewhat varying hashkafas and backgrounds”.
I do have the impression that typical Yeshivish Israelis do things similarly, but I will have to check with my friends who are now at the stage of having typical Israeli Yeshivish kids in shidduchim.
What other option do Yeshiva Bochurim have in the States (other than driving)?
LU: Yes, as stated in Joseph’s OP: “We might never think about it, but really there are so many tznius pitfalls in dating. In the car alone.”
Since when is a car, with windows on all sides an issue of “tznius”? It certainly doesn’t fit the definition of “yichud”.
Iacisrmma – I thought you meant that you thought it’s a yichud issue.
Apparently, Joseph wasn’t talking about “yichud” but about “tznius” or he would have used the word “yichud” and not “tznius”. The concept of tznius encompasses a lot more than yichud. In this case, it would have to do with the idea that boys and girls aren’t supposed to be too intimate. In general, boys and girls don’t drive around together when it’s not a dating situation, and even when men give rides to women, the women generally sit in the back (in the Yeshivish oilam, at least).
You have to do what you have to do in order to get married, but you should make sure that the dating process is conducted as tzniusly as possible and practical. I agree with him on that. What I am unsure about is:
1. Is there an alternative?
2. Even though dating should be as tznius as is possible while still being effective, different people need different things in order for dating to be effective. Just like some people might say, “why do you need to meet for more than 20 minutes?” and other people think, “no, of course I need to go out for 3 or 4 times.” and other people feel like they can’t get to know the other person well enough to be comfortable marrying them unless they actually do something on the date.
I do wonder sometimes if it wouldn’t have been better for me to have dated more “American style”. I don’t know. But the question of what is effective has to be taken into account.
But maybe for most Yeshivish 19 year olds, there is no reason why they have to date by car. I don’t know.
In Lakewood, the only thing that’s an option from that list is a car service, and car services are expensive. Also, there’s nowhere to go to close by, so that means that
1: The car service will be very expensive
2. It wouldn’t make sense for them to go there in separate cars. If they go in the same car service, the car service drivers are frum guys who live in Lakewood, so it would be kind of awkward.
You would have the same problem in a lot of out-of-town places.
What do you think of dating via Skype this should solve the problem. This way a girl from Israel can date a boy from Brazil from the privacy of their home, saving both of them time and money. What do you think? There is no Yichud problems as there wouldn’t be in a car and it could be very tzniusdik. The only fault I see is it’s VOIP (Voice Over Internet Protocol) and anything on the internet is bad.
I haven’t dated in 33 years as I am married, but I don’t know why it can’t work. Anybody want to give me feedback.
Since when is a car, with windows on all sides an issue of “tznius”? It certainly doesn’t fit the definition of “yichud”.
If the car is park in a secluded area or driving down deserted streets there might be a Yichud problem.
Joseph, I’m trying to understand your reasoning as to why a car is a problem. I’m not saying that you are wrong; I’m just trying to figure out what the issue is. Is your concern what it could lead to or that in and of itself it’s not appropriate?
Joseph, not everyone lives in Brooklyn.
Abba, I’ve never skyped, but it doesn’t sound like a good way to date to me. You need to see the person not their image on a computer.
I think it depends what level people are on. No one in a MO community is going to adhere to a chumra of not driving in a car together. But someone in Meah Shearim might.
In the USA most people have a car or access to a car. Not everyone lives close to public transportation and taxi / car services are not cost effective options.
Joseph, I hear. I still have a few problems with it:
1. As it is, there is a problem that guys in Brooklyn sometimes won’t go out with girls from other places because they don’t want to have to travel. Won’t this make them more unlikely to do so since dating will be so much easier in Brooklyn where they don’t have to pick the girl up?
2. Isn’t the boy supposed to meet the parents before they go out? Or does it not work that way anymore? Or is the point that he would first come to the house and then they would go out by public transportation?
3. Wouldn’t it be unsafe for the girl to go home by herself (or is the point that he would take her home by public transportation)?
I’m also wondering if you know what others think about this issue. Are a lot of the boys and girls who date this way (by car) uncomfortable with it? Do they feel it’s a breach in tznius? Would they be more comfortable not dating this way?
Joseph: “As far as the issue, if you were driving solo from Ashdod to Haifa and the nice neighborhood seforim store owner guy your family knew for years needed to get there too, would you offer him a ride? (Or feel comfortable if he asked you for a ride.)”
I didn’t realize that was what you meant. I have thought about that. That is why I make sure to check guys out well especially when I’ve gone out in the US. I was really upset once when a shadchan tried pressurring me to go out with someone without checking him out first and she didn’t “chap” why I thought it was dangerous (amongst other reasons).
On the other hand, the counter-argument might be: aren’t people supposed to be checking the guy out well enough to know that he is someone they would trust enough to marry or let their daughter marry?
Futurepotus: I think he’s talking about American Yeshivish communities.
LU-Abba, “I’ve never skyped, but it doesn’t sound like a good way to date to me. You need to see the person not their image on a computer.”
When you see someone aren’t you just seeing their image or do you need to see their shadow to make sure they are not a shade (evil spirit).
“As it is, there is a problem that guys in Brooklyn sometimes won’t go out with girls from other places because they don’t want to have to travel”
Dating via Skype will solve this problem.
“Wouldn’t it be unsafe for the girl to go home by herself.”
Dating via Skype will solve this problem.
Dating via skype save time, money and is less intimidating then dating in person. Also you avoid Yichud and the possibility of touching.
But thank you for the feedback.
“When you see someone aren’t you just seeing their image or do you need to see their shadow to make sure they are not a shade (evil spirit).”
I wasn’t talking about seeing their physical appearance (only). There are aspects to the person themselves that only come through when you see the person and interact with them. That’s why we don’t just date by phone or email.
And actually, I am not just seeing the person’s image when I see the person.
Then again, there have been guys I went out with whom I didn’t check out well enough and only realized what they were like afterwards. So I do hear your point, Joseph. But, I still think it’s not so practical outside of New York.
I also think that the very Yeshivish people do check things out well beforehand. That is why they only have to date a few times – since their parents already checked out the guy beforehand and already feel that he would be an appropriate person for their daughter to marry (which means that they would trust him to take her on a date).
Joseph, most Israeli Yeshiva Bochurim do not have driver licenses, most yeshivos do not let their bochurim get one. So they could not borrow their fathers’ cars even if they had one.
Also, in the chareidi world, a car is not considered a necessity, and is often beyond a typical kollel family’s budget. Besides the cost of the car, insurance is very expensive, gas is about twice what it costs in the US, and just getting a license is a fortune- you have to take something like 28 mandatory lessons, besides the test and fees, so it can cost thousands of shekels.
So going by bus is the normal thing to do in Israel, even for a date.
I always did wonder though how tznius it is when everyone on the bus sees the girl dressed fancy on a weekday- and knows exactly where she is going, especially if it is during sefira when she can’t be going to a chasuna.
WTP – she could be going to a simcha. Also, not everyone gets that dressed up, especially in EY.
Taking public transportation in Brooklyn/Manhattan at night is not safe for a girl. Taking public is also not time/cost efficient. Therefore it makes more sense to take a car. I’ve never felt that driving on a date is not tznius. Other aspects I have felt are not so tznius such as the girls getting decked out(over the top) but the actual driving was never an issue.
And as LU pointed out, the girls parents usually want to meet the guy first so it would be weird to then travel on a bus/subway together. It’s also quite untznius taking public transportation in general during the summer months.
On the topic of activities, I’ve found that they really break the ice and the boy/girl give the most accurate depiction of themselves during those times. It also allows you to see many aspects of the person which you would otherwise have a hard time finding out. In lobbies and similar venues there is too much pressure to be a stiff and proper.
LU- note I said especially during sefira. But even at other times, since the popular dating hotels are not on the same bus routes as most of the simcha halls (usually in industrial areas), it is pretty obvious.
just uncovered this one:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/dating-without-a-car
ccguy: “It’s also quite untznius taking public transportation in general during the summer months.”
That’s a good point. I was wondering about that. Personally, I always tried to avoid goyish transportation when I was in the US. But if they took a taxi, it would avoid that problem.
In terms of meeting the parents, he could first go to her house and then they could take public transportation together.
Also, does everyone really meet the parents beforehand and is it absolutely necessary? Girls who are from out-of town and are living in Lakewood or Brooklyn – I imagine the guy doesn’t end up meeting the parents beforehand. So if it’s for an important enough cause (assuming there really is a tznius issue here), maybe it can be skipped.
I agree with you about the activities. And I have davka been advised that I should do things on dates (not that it’s up to me…)
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