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Avi: Chacham Ovadia is on the record as supporting the pullout. He is not on any record as later regretting his original position. In either event, at most regretting it would demonstrate he believes giving land didn’t bring peace in that instance. It would not reverse his fundamental position that if peace can be achieved by giving up sovereignty of the land then it is halachicly mandatory to give up sovereignty to preserve Jewish lives.
And the halachic position that it is halachicly mandatory to give up sovereignty to preserve Jewish lives is the position of the Gedolei Yisroel across streams, Sephardic and Ashkenazic. Rav Shach explicit stated land for peace is “permitted and necessary to compromise on even half of the Land of Israel”.
And the Brisker Rov recently stated that if the zionist government continues in its efforts to make it untenable for Bnei Yeshiva to devote themselves to Limud Torah, it may be necessary and required for the Bnei Torah to move out of Eretz Yisroel in order to continue their Torah studies.
“groan”……..I always try to avoid these sterile discussions but one remark by “Joseph” had me choke on my morning coffee and impelled me to comment. He writes:
“sovereignty is not worth one jewish life”. This comment is nonsensical, flies in the face of all of jewish history and actually debases Am Yisroel and millions of jews who, throughout history have fought for the independence of Eretz Yisroel.
His comment will come as an affront to Jehoshua and the tribes, to Dovid Hamelech and all of the Melochim of Baiyt rishon, to the Chasmonoin,to Rabbi Akiva who believed in Bar Kochba, in all of the Rishonim who clearly believed in waging war,especially a defensive one…..and many other examples.
This kind of remark is truly dangerous as it will endanger and commit to destruction millions of jews. And it is a fabrication and a lie.
And rob compares Yehoshua and Dovid Hamelech to Bibi Netanyahu and his zionist regime and then makes deductions from that comparison to justify shedding Jewish blood.
ROB- To play devil’s advocate on behalf of Joseph. I think he meant Zionist sovereignty is not worth one Jewish life. This makes sense for those who don’t consider Zionism a Jewish movement and don’t consider Zionism to have any halachik value. Zionist sovereignty is no different than Arab sovereignty for them, so why should Jewish lives be put at risk for one secular government over another?
Joseph: One does not have to compare Bibi and Yehoshua to point out that there can be a lesson learned (and argued upon) that Yishuv Eretz Yisrael is Doche Pikuach Nefesh. (Or, as the Minchas Chinuch would formulate it, Pikuach Nefesh was never said B’makom this Mitzvah.)
Joseph: I believe R’ Ovadia’s sons have gone on record that he was Chozer on “land for peace”. I’ll try to find a source.
(Derech Agav: I think everyone agrees that if giving away land would guarantee peace, then we should give away land. The only Machloksim by land for peace were whether it is Muttar to do so given that it wouldn’t work because the Arabs would still want to kill us. It’s a machlokes in “Metzius”, i.e. the sociological Metzius of the Arab communities. So when R’ Ovadia was Chozer, it wasn’t a change in Shittah, just in what he expected from the Arabs.)
simcha613: -sigh- It is totally irrelevant that Eretz Yisroel is led by Zionists. The plain fact is that eight million people live there now, six and a half million are jews. Any change of sovereignty condemns these people to oppression and death. All you have to do is look at everyday news of what is happening in that part of the world EVERY DAY. To claim-as you seem to say- that “Zionist sovereignty is no different than Arab sovereignty” is dangerous and a blatant lie. And it is not a secular government. It has a great many frum jews amongst the leaders-including chareidim.
Simcha613 -To play devil’s advocate on behalf of Simcha613 & ROB & Avi K. I think they mean Zionist sovereignty is worth Many Jewish lives. (That is – as long as it’s Not them or their families!)
First of all, I didn’t mean that I didn’t think there was a difference between Arab sovereignty and Zionist sovereignty. I was merely speaking in extremes to express how Anti-Zionists delegitimize the “Jewishness” and halachik significance of the Zionsit entity.
My response to Health- As we see from Tanach and Halacha, Yishuv Eretz Yisroel is worth fighting for even if it puts lives at risk. Zionist sovereignty allows for the maximum amount of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel and is therefore worth fighting to defend. Am Yisro’el Be’Eretz Yisro’el.
Avi K- Zionism is more than political movement and has been since 1948. The very basis of the government and legal system are based on Zionism which has its own political parties. Yes, there is religious representation as well, but there are limits to their power. I don’t think they would be able to change the nature of the government of Israel into a theocracy based on the Talmud and Shulchan Aruch even if they were in power.
My personal opinion, is that the State of Israel as it stands is a secular state (with some significant Jewish influences). As it is a secular state, I am hesitant to say that the State of Israel is synonymous with Jewish Sovereignty over the Land of Israel. (I guess a question can be made how to compare the current secular State of Israel with the idol worshiping Malchei Yisroel of Tanach- was that not considered Jewish Sovereignty either?)
But, the secular State of Israel offers more opportunities for Yishuv Eretz Yisroel (Right of Return), more governmental funds towards Torah and maintaining holy areas, and more manpower to defending Eretz Yisroel and Jewish People in Eretz Yisroel and around the world. Not to mention the fact that Giyur and Marriage run through the State Rabbinate limits the existence of intermarriage even among completely irreligious Jews. No other secular government would offer that to Klal Yisorel and that’s something we all need to appreciate.
Sam2:
“I think everyone agrees that if giving away land would guarantee peace, then we should give away land.”
I wonder what Avi K thinks about that…
Simcha613 -“My response to Health- As we see from Tanach and Halacha, Yishuv Eretz Yisroel is worth fighting for even if it puts lives at risk. Zionist sovereignty allows for the maximum amount of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel and is therefore worth fighting to defend. Am Yisro’el Be’Eretz Yisro’el.”
Stop with the Zionist propaganda!
EY can be controlled by Turkey. They allowed you to move anywhere in the land.
Jewish lives are valuable; Not to be sacrificed on the altar of Zionism!
Turkey would not have a right of return givng all Jews automatic citizenship when returning to Eretz Yisroel. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that yishuv Eretz Yisroel would be happening at the same quantity and quality under any other regime.
Health: The Minchas Chinuch was fueled by Zionist propaganda?
Simcha613 -“Turkey would not have a right of return givng all Jews automatic citizenship when returning to Eretz Yisroel. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that yishuv Eretz Yisroel would be happening at the same quantity and quality under any other regime”
You’re right! Only the Zionists are interested in Shmad, like they did to the Yeminite Jews!
Sam2 -“Health: The Minchas Chinuch was fueled by Zionist propaganda?”
Don’t make up stories! I never said that.
Avi K -“1. The Tanach is Zionist propaganda?”
No it’s not. You do that!
“2. Actually, southwestern Turkey is part of the land promised to Avraham Avinu so they should give it to us.”
When Moshiach comes, we will have the whole world.
Health: Then what is the Zionist propaganda that you are decrying?
“When Moshiach comes, we will have the whole world.”
Where do you get that from? Eretz Yisrael won’t be the whole world.
Sam- I think Health accidentally replaced his Tanach with the Protocols.
–My personal opinion, is that the State of Israel as it stands is a secular state (with some significant Jewish influences). As it is a secular state, I am hesitant to say that the State of Israel is synonymous with Jewish Sovereignty over the Land of Israel.–
You are sort of correct. Come live here a while and you’ll see how correct. This place is pure secularity. In America I sat at work between two Catholics. In Israel, I sit between two atheists.
Where you are wrong is the part about significant Jewish influence. They only steal Jewish symbols because they can’t think of any on their own. The chilonim hate Judaism.
Sam2 -“Where do you get that from? Eretz Yisrael won’t be the whole world.”
And I thought you knew Gemorra. Kedusha EY will be Mispashet in the whole world!
I think Simcha613 replaced his Judaism with his Zionism!
Health: I do know (some) Gemara. I can’t 100% guarantee it, but I would be willing to strongly wager (yes, yes, Sanhedrin 23b and Rosh Hashana 22(ish), etc.) that there is no such Gemara anywhere in Talmud Bavli.
Health- I guess I deserved that. I apologize for my comment.
Honestly, I have no idea if we will “have the world” when Mashiach comes. The only thing I know, is that when Mashiach comes, we will have our government/kingdom in Eretz Yisroel, we will have a Beis HaMikdash, and there will be universal knowledge and recognition of God. Does that mean that will be the end of all other countries and there will be a new world order with the King of the Jews as the King of the World? I have no idea.
Sam2 -“Health: I do know (some) Gemara. I can’t 100% guarantee it, but I would be willing to strongly wager (yes, yes, Sanhedrin 23b and Rosh Hashana 22(ish), etc.) that there is no such Gemara anywhere in Talmud Bavli”
How old are you? Stop being so haughty! I’ll give you a hint – it’s either in Pesachim or in Soteh.
Avi K -“BTW, Health, Zionism is part of Judaism.”
Not the way the Zionist’s nowadays practice it. That’s Avodah Zora!
Health: How old I am isn’t relevant. I can guarantee, though, that there is no Gemara in Pesachim that says that Eretz Yisrael will be the whole world and I am pretty sure (can’t quite guarantee it, though) that there is no such Gemara in Sotah.
It’s not about being haughty or arrogant. You claimed a Gemara existed. You didn’t provide a citation or a Daf. There is no way to prove a negative other than showing you the entire Masechta and showing that no such Gemara exists. It is unfortunate, but there is really no way to call you out for citing a fake Gemara without seeming a little bit arrogant. There is just no way to do it.
Health – You can continue your arguing as long as you like, but please refrain from insulting people who haven’t insulted you.
Sam2 -“I can guarantee, though, that there is no Gemara in Pesachim that says that Eretz Yisrael will be the whole world and I am pretty sure (can’t quite guarantee it, though) that there is no such Gemara in Sotah.
It’s not about being haughty or arrogant”
The arrogance is that you wrote – that there is No such Gemorra! I told you which Masectah it is in. If you want the exact Daf, go ask your Rabbi in YU, or pay me to tell you.
Health: Pay you to tell me? If you knew Gemara you’d know that it’s Assur to take money for teaching Divrei Torah like that.
But I’m only being arrogant if I’m wrong. I’m still pretty sure I’m not wrong. There is no such Gemara. If you want to claim that there is, Alecha Lehavi Ra’aya. Quote the Gemara.
He doesn’t know where it is.
DY: Can you back me up here, maybe? Does his nonexistent Gemara exist?
Leshem quotes it as a Midrash.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37426&st=&pgnum=115&hilite=
DY: So it’s not a Gemara, and he seems to say it as Eretz Yisrael will conquer the whole world, not that the whole world magically becomes part of Eretz Yisrael. (To be fair, though, I don’t think Health’s claim went contrary to that.)
I would guess if he quotes a midrash, it’s not a gemara.
I don’t know why you say “conquer”; he says:
???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????
DY: Because he explains it in the context of the whole world attacking Eretz Yisrael then E”Y winning. (I could be wrong, I skimmed it quickly; but isn’t that what he says?)
Not really – he’s referring to two tekufos after milchemes Gog uMagog, and the spiritual elevation that will take place.
I’m not the person (and this probably isn’t the place) to discuss Kabbalah; I just searched and found this, which I think shows that a) the concept exists, and b) it’s probably not a gemara, but it is a midrash.
Sam2 -“Health: Pay you to tell me? If you knew Gemara you’d know that it’s Assur to take money for teaching Divrei Torah like that.”
It’s only Assur to take money for teaching you Torah. I’m charging for my time!
“But I’m only being arrogant if I’m wrong.”
And you are! I told you it’s a Gemorra & where it is.
Health: “If you want the exact Daf, go ask your Rabbi in YU, or pay me to tell you.” Sounds a lot like you’re not charging for time. You’re on the site anyway. You just want money to tell me the source. That sounds like a violation of Mah Ani B’chinam to me. Also, see Avi K’s post.
You did not tell me where it is. You gave me a Masechta. (Actually, you gave me one of two Masechtos.) I even looked. It’s not in either of them.
Avi: How do dayanim take more than minimum wage?
Joseph: We have somehow found a way to pay people for learning Torah, more than the Gemara seemingly allows. The Poskim discuss it and fight Heterim. But if what Health claimed isn’t a violation of Af Atem B’chinam, then nothing is.
Avi K -“Health, for your time you get the wage of someone who guards a zucchini garden (???? ???????) – minimum wage.”
He hasn’t even offered anything! And I did try looking for it. Let him try looking in the Aggadata of those Gemorras.
I don’t know the halachos of salary for Torah but this exchange seems very strange… Health makes a statement, Sam2 questions it and asks for an exact source, and Health offers to provide it for payment?
Sam2:
if what Health claimed isn’t a violation of Af Atem B’chinam, then nothing is.
First of all, I think its pretty obvious that Health was not actually expecting any payment here. That statement was just part of his general bluster. (As was the case in http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/is-zionism-the-yetzer-hora/page/6#post-607909)
But anyway, even if he would have been serious, I don’t see why the heterim that apply to paying Rebbeim (sechar battalah, chiddushei sofrim, etc) wouldn’t apply here.
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