Is Aliyah a wise choice in the nuclear age?

On the contrary, Yekke. Rav Meir Simcha was a Zionist who personally contributed to the JNF. As for why our enemies hate us, the initiator of the Holocaust wrote explicitly in his book that he hated us because we brought morality to the world. Our enemies now see that the establishment of the State of Israel was a giant step towards a Jewish Yerushalayim as the legal and moral center of the world and they are trying desperately to stop it as they want it either to be in Brussels or in some Caliphate.

It really amuses me people sit in America and fret over the matzav of us poor nebachs in Eretz Yisrael. Even if G-d forbid Iran were to nuke us, don’t you think America would be the next target 2 seconds later? As Bibi has stated – they don’t need ICBMs to hit Israel, those bad boys are for reaching America. Plus there have been documented incidents of Mexican drug cartels working with Hezbollah, Iran’s Lebanese proxy. They don’t even need to shoot it over, they can just shlep it across the border amongst the several hundreds-thousands of illegals Obama lets over every day.

Whoever said Israel’s economy stinkss because the rate is roughly 4 shekels to the dollar doesn’t understand the significance of exchange rates. Japan has the 3rd largest economy in the world and the Yen trades at over 100 to the dollar.

The Rebbe miSatmar himself lived in Eretz Yisrael for a while after the war and at one point was considering making permanent aliyah but decided to go back to the states due to the responsibility he felt to his large amount of chassidim still living in America (as per an English biography I have on him).

B’kitzur, I can’t stand the government but I love living in this land and raising my children here (especially not having to dole out $10,000 or more per kid annually in school fees). If G-d forbid it all goes away in one big nuclear flash then that’s Hashem’s cheshbon, not mine. At least I’ll have died living the life I love without fear and get a free ticket to olam haba dying al kiddush Hashem.

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Untill Zionism started, Jews and Arabs co-existed impressively peacefully across the middle east (especially when compared to the situation in Christian Europe at the time). Think of the Rambam, who was a royal officer in the court of the King. I think that historically, its very hard to say the pre-Zionism levels of anti-Semitism in Arab society were anywhere near what they are now.

Also, the latest War in Israel caused an undeniable uptick in anti-Semitic attacks and incidents across Europe.

I am not trying to justify anti-Semitism. Obviously, they are 100% wrong. I just think its ironic that the proposed solution to anti-Semtitism ended up being such a large cause of the problem.

The logical reasons to hate us, given by Arab and European anti-Semites, don’t really make sense. It’s not that they are fooled, either. European hate for Jews is hardly anything new. They simply lied low for a couple of years after the holocaust, when anti-Semitism fell out of style temporarily. Now they are back to their true selves. They’ll hate us when were poor because were poor, when were rich because we’re rich, when we mix with them, when we don’t, when we should ‘go to Palestine/Zion’, or when we actually do so.

Just as Yaakov Avinu told Lavan, ?????? ??? ?????? ????. You hate us when we shine and you hate us when we are low. The reason that they hate us is because they want to.

The Arabs didn’t necessarily have to hate us simply for moving in alongside Tenn in a tiny piece of land. In fact not all of them did hate us. Some of their leaders got them riled up and locked into this position. There are many Arabs who still care very much about their people and are yet pro Israel. These are actually being more logical.

“Untill Zionism started, Jews and Arabs co-existed impressively peacefully across the middle east”

well obviously, as the Arabs had no reason to dislike Jews prior to Zionism. But today we have the state of Israel where Jews, frum as well as non-frum, can reside freely. Certainly a worthwhile bargain no? It’s like saying you wouldn’t move to New York because since Jews live there there’s anti-semetism there.There’s virtually zero anti-semetism in China, I wonder why? Because theres no Jews there. Same principle.

You set a criteria for Nissim? Unless every single person is saved there was no Ness. Does that mean that Chanukah was not a Ness? Look, they were a militia, they got them by surprise, they were good fighters etc.

If you are training your children to think like Apikursim in one area, don’t be surprised when they expound on it.

Really, HaLeiVi? When there’s a story about a crying getchke, you tell your kids to believe it because otherwise they might become apikorsim?

assurnet: So killing 5 million or less Jews is not too bad since the Nazis killed 6 million, correct? Right now it is more likely that C”V a mass Jewish casualty incident will happen to Jews in Israel than to Jews outside of Israel in America or Europe or Australia or Canada or South America.

Voting’s got nothing to do with this discussion. The Brisker Rov didn’t vote nor do his disciples vote today.

Avi, dude, I said that the Jews under Arab rule, just as anywhere in golus for the past 2,000 years, have suffered. Don’t put words in other’s mouths.

If the zionists didn’t demand and fight for a State, there would not have been over 25,000 dead Jews from wars plus another nearly 4,000 from terror plus another 100,000 injured in war and thousands more injured in terror. For hundreds of years prior to Zionism (note: prior to Zionism – not prior to Israel) there were not nearly as many as Jews killed in Palestine.

DY, I don’t know that story.

I’m not talking about believing hearsay. In talking about making light of something that the whole world is in awe of besides for atheists, Jew haters and those with a Shita to push.

Actually, accepting a Ness and special Hashgacha does not require one to subscribe to Zionism. The two are not related, which is where I come in. But since nodding to anything at all that can be seen as acknowledgment is out of the question they start Fahrenfering everything they won’t refute — by using the same arguments any Apikores would use to explain away or make light of miracles if TaNaCh.

The Brisker Rov held there were nissim, in the z’chus of limud Torah.

The Satmar Rov held it’s all sitra achara.

Joseph – your saying G-d forbid 5 to 6 million could die here in Israel but that until now remains hypothetical. I’m talking about 6 million that actually DID die in Europe. So when we are discussing risks based on actual events and actual numbers mathematically you would have to conclude it’s several tens of times more dangerous in the last century to live in Europe than in the land of Israel.

I think your issue is your hung up on zionism and can’t separate it from living in the actual land which is ironically the same as most arabs and other israel haters today. I’m by no means a zionist but I love living in Eretz Yisrael because Hashem gave it to me not hertzl or ben gurion. Despite their deepest intentions, within the state they created the charedi community is growing by leaps and bounds and the non-charedi community is now starting to shift much more heavily to traditional if not dati. I personally tolerate the government with no small amount of distaste as a necessary evil much like I would the federal government if I were living back in the states (as a great deal of goyim there probably do as well).

Do some chazara in Tanach. See how giant amounts of Jews were taken out in wars r”l throughout shoftim and melachim. Often the government then not only wasn’t frum – they were into avoda zara. Yet the only time I can recall people leaving the land because they didn’t feel it was safe was after the murder of Gedalia ben Achikam, and that fact was viewed as so tragic that we have a fast day until today commemorating it. You can try to argue that maybe it’s a suffek whether or not it’s a mitzvah to live in eretz Yisrael today but can you argue that there is even the chance of maybe a suffek of a mitzvah in living in New York?

assurnet: Your mixing in living in Eretz Yisroel with Zionism. They’re two seperate issues. I fully support living in Eretz Yisroel for those who can do so. Chareidim have lived in Eretz Yisroel for hundreds of years prior to the existence of the State, long before the zionists-come-latelys decided they wanted a State.

The Satmar Rav mentions three reasons for the Nissim. Either that HKBH simply helped since Yidden were in trouble; due to many Tefillos; lastly and most famously, Sitra Achra. And again, you set a criteria for what will be allowed to be considered a Ness? Was the victory of Chanukah a Ness? People died there too.

Joseph, you are playing with my words, and I hope it is not purposely. I said that the type of reasoning given to make light of Nissim and open Hashgacha is what is used by Apikursim. I’m not calling anyone an Apikores (or an Oved Avoda Zara for that matter). As we see, the Brisker Rav and the Satmar Rav didn’t say that it just happened our that they were stronger. Yet, I do hear that from many or most.

People should realize that there are more than two sides to this story. Satmar framed it that you are either on board with their entire ideology or an ardent Zionist. It is not that way. Many Gedolim and Rebbes stood behind the state although they disparaged of the organizations. They didn’t yell or broadcast their opinion on television so it isn’t out there. Most Chareidim actually have that approach. This website does.

As far as R. Teichtal’s zionist treatise is concerned, I’ll once again quote the following:

Mi Sheberach for Tzahal

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Joseph, the fact that you use that quote of Reb Elyashiv shows what I am saying, that you cannot separate the two issues.

Almost all Gedolim were against the Zionist groups for the same reason they were against the Jewish communist groups. This has little to do with the discussion about Israel being a great thing that we are thankful for. The Brisker Rav was thankful for it, but not to them. Satmar is the exception. They took it all the way and forced themselves into new ideologies that they hadn’t had until then, in order to back up the anti Zionist stance. As I said, it doesn’t have to be that way, but that’s the way they took it.

The Chazon Ish didn’t either like them, but did he rather live under Arabs?

I understand, there is a big Kasha: If it is really a good and important thing, how could it have come about through such people? It’s a good question indeed. The Tzitz Eliezer discusses it. Besides, you can’t make sweeping decisions based on a Kasha.

If you want to hate the early Zionist even better we can come up with some theoretical what ifs that’d shake their whole undertaking.

Think about it, without Zionism or the White Paper the British would still be in charge of Palestine. Jewish people looking for a place to run would naturally go to Eretz Yisroel, especially being in Western hands. Being that this would not have been organized the Arabs would not have galvanized against the influx, perhaps. Thus the British wouldn’t have closed their doors to the Jews, which means that many more Jews would have come. We would also have much more religious Jews coming, since it is not about Zionism.

Once the land has a majority of Jews perhaps a natural two state concept would have come into place. Y’never know…

So here we can shoot the messenger and keep the message.

PAA: Kasher was a notorious forger. He forged a letter from Gedolim stating that the Zionist State is the ischalta d’geulah, afra lepumei. This fabrication of Kasher’s has been in Zionist literature for years until we found out that Kasher faked the whole thing, and now it’s documented and he’s exposed as a forger and a fake. He also doctored the story of the meeting of the Moetzes Chachmei HaTorah in 1937 where he left out the position of people like Rav Ahron Kotler. It should be noted that Kasher, in his attempted defense of religious Zionism, Hatkuha Hagedolah”, forged and doctored the article in Hapardes – yes, he did not merely misquote it, he actually blatantly and unashamedly doctored it, presenting his forgery as “proof” to his anti-Torah position, to give the impression that the only rabbonim against the State were those from Hungary and Czechoslovakia. He conveniently deleted the names of

Rav Elchonon Wasserman, Rav Ahron Kotler and Rav Rottenberg. He wrote a book called HaTekufah heGedolah which is absolutely full of misquotes, fabrications and distortions. He also deleted the sentence that those voting against – held this view under ALL CIRCUMSTANCES – even if such a medina was built upon ‘yesodos hadass’, because, this it would be “Kefirah b’emunas bias hamoshiach…” and especially one built “…al yesodos hakefirah, venimtza shem shomayim mischalell.”

His deception has already been exposed and well known to those who have researched this topic. R. Zvi Weinman documented extensively the forgeries of R. Kasher – and he even challenged him in public to respond to his findings when R. Kasher was alive – in his excellent work “Mikatowitz ad 5 B’Iyar.” Of course, Kasher did not produce any response to the evidence against him. More of R. Kasher’s falsificaitons are exposed in the sefer “Das HaTziyonus”, expecially his now famous fraud regarding the position of Rav Meir Simcha od Dvinsk. So this R. Kasher, who the Brisker Rav referred to as “the biggest treifah” (a play on his name, which he spelled the same as the word “kosher”), reprinted the unverified Kol Hator, and then he stretched the statements that are found there, that we don’t even know really come from the GRA, reading into them things that even they don’t say. Kasher wasn’t always a Zionist. That’s a later development. It’s funny, in fact – if you want to track Kasher’s Zionistic tendencies you can check the old printings of Torah Sheleimah, where he spelled his name the old Yiddish way – Menachem Mendel Kasher – Kuf alef shin ayin raish. Then slowly he changed both the spelling (to the modern chof shin reish) and the name (to plain “Menachem”.)

Some of the signatories were:

R’ Tzvi Pesach Frank, R’ Yechezkel Sarna, R’ Zalman Sorotzkin, R’ Yechiel Michel Tikuchansky, R’ Shlomo Yosef Zevin, and R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach.

None of the people you mentioned ever signed a letter saying such a thing. You got that information – or whoever told this to you got it – from the “hatekufah hagedolah” of Rabbi Kasher, who falsified the entire episode as well as doctored the letter.

RZW comprehensively debunks RMK’s statements (p.231) that “k’mat kol gedolei hatorah vechol RY’s bo’oretz” accepted the concept of ADG, and (Ha”H page 387): “…kovu v’ishru 200 rabbonim miyisroel kimat kol rabbonei ho’oretz gam chavrei Agudas Yisroel (milvad HaNeturei Karta).. .hashkofas daas hatorah merabonei ho’oretz bli pipukim vechashoshos…shehakomas medina hi…kehashgocho protis min hashomayim K’ASCHALTA D’GEULA.” As already mentioned above, RZW says that these quotes from HaH are regularly used by those who need it, to prove that the Gedolei Yisroel accepted the ADG. (Indeed, in HaH that RM Kasher himself considered this KK so important, that he refers the reader to it – **right at the beginning of his book** – even before his Hakodomo.) RZW continues, that not only did he speak to the Gedolim, who denied ever signing such a KK, but – after much effort – found the original document – with the signatures…and of course the document with signatures NEVER has the words “Aschalta DeGeula” on it! The actual words there are (reproduced in his book): “…hanitzonim horishonim shel KIBBUTZ GOLIYOS…” (The HaH version: “…hanitzonim horishonim shel ASCHALTA DEGEULA.”!!!) (Incidentally, RZW adds, that at that time no one yet had any idea that this “kibbutz goliyos” would also cause with the mass Haavora al hadass in the Olim camps.) RZW notes (p.144) that his criticisms of the HaH were originally publishedin the Z’eirei Agudas Yisroel monthly Digleinu (Shvat 5738) – during the lifetime of RMK, who obviously wouldn’t or couldn’t respond. (This is despite the fact that at the end of his foreword, he invited comments.) Later on (p.282) in his book, RZW brings further evidence, that RMK’s biasand prejudices caused him to censor/misquote and misrepresent facts in anarticle in the rabanut publication Shono Beshonoh, in order to give the impression that his pro-zionist views were not in conflict with the majorityof the Gedolei Yisroel. In page 286 he also shows how RMK in HaH distorted the words of the Gerer Rebbe (Imrei Emes) z’l at that meeting.

Another person who published (in 5729) an attack on RMK is Rav Moshe

Sternbuch shlit’a who was then a Rosh Kollel, living in Bnei Brak. His main aim is the Kol Hator which RMK attached to HaH – claiming it is the work of Rav Hillel Shklaver z’l purporting to be the views of the Gr”o z’l on Inyonei Geula etc – which somehow fit in very nicely with the views of HaH. RMS notes that the clear evidence that the entire sefer is not from the Gr”o or his students is the fact that it contains many modern Hebrew words and it is therefore unclear what is from the original and what was added later. In his opinion KH should not have been published – being a “Dovor She’eino Mesukan”. He also expresses his surpise at RMK who ignored the Cherem Hakadmonim issued by the Bes Din of Vilna after the petira of the Gr”o not to publish anything in his name without the haskomo of the Bes Din.. . RMS continues that RMK well knows the opinion of “rov minyan ubinyan gedolei hador hakodem vedorenu” (including RC Brisker, REC Meisles, RE Wasserman, RBB Leibowitz,RA Kotler and most of the gedolei Hachasidus) on these matters. But he disregards them and only brings those who are leshitoso. RMS then goes on to prove that even in this version of KH there are many rayos which clearly disprove RMK ideas in HaH and goes as far as calling him a ‘megaleh ponim beTorah shelo kehalocho”! His ‘maamar’ runs approximately 10 pages with point after point disproving RMK’s pshat in the KH and the Gr”o.

Hayotze Lonu Mizeh, that it’s more than obvious that when it came to stand up for his prejudices, RM Kasher was quite prepared to openly and/or surreptitiously doctor, censor and distort the facts. Thus, LAD, his book should not be used as serious proof for any debate on matters relating to the medina and the views of the Gedolei Yisroel. And, as mentioned previously, all his rayos etc misforim vesofrim must be double and triple checked – before being quoted as “Toras Emes”. It seems that this need for distortion and misrepresentation shows that even this renowned Torah scholar felt that without it he could never convince the (Torah) world that an independent medina prior to bias hamoshiach was the ideal choice of the recognized gedolim.

Joseph, you are a notorious libeler. I suggest that you and Daas read ?????? ???”, which details a long list of gedolim from various eidot who supported Zionism.

As far as Benei Banim, it is entirely unreliable on his grandfather (Rav Henkin zt’l) views, which the author by and large is at odds with himself. Before using him as a citation check out his seforim, including his teshuva on the permissibility of mixed dancing, see what he says and decide if this is a person you want to quote. Or the funniest teshuvah he has is about – and I am not making this up – whether you are permitted (yes, permitted!) to say “Zatzal” on the Satmar Rebbe ztvk’l, or is it prohibited to say Zatzal on him, since Zatzal would imply that he was a Tzadik. I am not kidding. He really has a lengthy discussion about this.

So Joseph is saying that you can’t trust what he says in his grandfather’s name because of what he said about the Satmar Rav, and PAA is justifying what he said about the Satmar Rav based on what he claims his grandfather said about him.

My head is spinning.

Furthermore, the declaration was sent in three different versions to different rabbis, and many of the rabbis signed on versions that did not include any positive words about the state, just about voting for the United Religious Front. The 1949 activists who posted the announcement in the streets took all the signatures and put them under one declaration. Furthermore, there were actually two other announcement published at the time of that election, one signed by roshei yeshivos and one signed by Chassidic rebbes. R. Kasher took all the names of the signatories on all three announcements and claimed that they had all signed the one calling the state “the beginning of redemption”.

HaRav Yosef Eliyahu Henkin zt’l in Kisvei Rav Henkin vol. 2 5719 #109, vol. 2 in the haskomos, vol. 1 #206, vol. 2 p. 103 states “I opposed with all my might the creation of the Medina”. He also quotes that it is against the 3 oaths and that Hashem will punish us for it. He also says that the holocaust came about as a punishment for the violation of the Oaths:

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3217&st=&pgnum=115&hilite=

Rav Henkin said that after the against-the-Torah establishment of the State of Israel, the fact is there are now millions of Jews living there and whose safety depends on the physical security of the country, and so nobody should do anything that puts Jews in danger and the fact that the creation of Israel was an aveira is no excuse to support the Arabs. (Of course, nobody disagrees with that. The Satmar Rebbe writes more than once that now that the State is established, we cannot allow the Arabs to take over, and only prayer – and Moshiach – can safely dismantle the State and that we cannot allow the nations to dismantle it because that would be a sakanah for the Jews living there.)

Kisvei Rav Henkin vol 2 5719 #109, vol 2 in the haskomos, vol. 1 #206, vol. 2 p. 103:

“Dechikas Haketz [i.e. one of the three Oaths – not to “pressure the time of the geulah] pushes the time of Geulah further away, and because the different types of Baryonim wielded the sword and participated in various rebellions, one thing led to another and the result was that we lost the majority of our nation, who were killed through horrible deaths, the like of which has never been seen in all of history, and thousands of holy congregations were razed to the ground, and b’avonoseinu harabim it has fueled the warning of Chazal – “and if not [i.e. if you do not follow the Three Oaths], then I shall permit your flesh to be hunted like game in the field” – Hashem should have mercy on those who survived.”

He also adds about how Jews are not allowed to be involved in wars and our approach should be totally one of submission, and how the Baryonim are still involved in antagonizing the nations.

Already we see that the opinion of the Rabbis was hardly monolithic.

The “vote” that the Agudah took where the greatest Gedolim, such as Rav Ahron Kotler and Rav Elchonon Wasserman who were there – (and it should be noted that together with them held Rav Chaim Ozer and the Brisker Rav and Chazon Ish who weren’t there altogether) – were “outvoted” by a greater number of much lesser Rabbonim.

Yup-let’s all be totally submissive to the Palestinians, ISIS, Hezbollah, Iran,Hamas, -see Joseph’s comment- that’s the right recipe fpr Israel. Yup, let’s “safely” dismantle Israel and give it over to Hamas and ISIS. That’s the right recipe for Israel today. Forgive me if I decide not to commit suicide, regardless who promotes these asinine views.