Is Aish too Zionistic to be Effective?

The problem with Kiruv is generally they are unsuccessful, very few non-relgious really want to be frum. Some want some connection with Judaism and people mistake that with wanting to be frum. Especially because many people have lives that make it almost impossible to be frum (Like they are married to a non-jew or have non-jewish children or non-jewish parents) . Many people might want to go to Shul once a week and maybe learn about some judaism, but that all they want

The only reason chabad is a bit more successful is they are willing to look the other way and dont demand total compliance, So they consider someone who drives to shul every shabbos a success story (They do not condone such behavior, they look the other way and maybe say that its wrong to do so in a nice way, but they do not fire and brimstone them)

Also generally Chabad Rabbis (and their wives) are much more open and friendlier than other rabbis so they can get more people

Its really not that successful, in fact many Kiruv organizatiions today are more focusing on OTD people than people who were never religious

One of the issues is like them or hate them reform and conservative at least put at least a spark of judaism in people (At least they had some exposue , even if it was wrong) today with the decline of reform and conservative people dont even have that and going to services is a foreign idea

To an extent, this is a valid concern.

Partners in Torah warns their Torah Mates not to discuss politics because you can only lose.
(1)If you disagree you can alienate a passionate supporter of the opposite side of you (2)waste energy on politics rather than Torah (3)some of these people’s current religion is liberalism. Their whole value for Torah is largely only to the degree that they believe it supports liberalism. They believe in liberalism with such a religious fervor that if told it conflicts with Torah they won’t accept Torah.

OTOH when it comes to Zionism I’m not sure this is such a big concern because the younger generation anti-Zionist crowd would not be receptive to Kiruv either way. They don’t identify with Judaism as a religion in any way. Their anti-Zionism seems more motivated by an effort to fight and deny their Jewish heritage and assimilate than a principled understanding of the issue. (It is also motivated to fight the emptiness they have in their lives by rallying around self-righteous self-aggrandizing causes like being anti-Israel)

They would never agree to sign up for Partners In Torah to being with. They aren’t coming for a Shabbos meal either way. Or if they are only to make fun when they leave.

So Zionism won’t make a difference either way to them. Can you imagine doing kiruv on a guy like Bernie Sanders?

That it is who you dealing with today

I don’t understand how peole can do kiruv in the USA. I don’t want to bash Lubavitchers in general, they are amazing people, but I just want to point out the hypocrisy of some people trying to do kiruv in spiritual snake pits – I have see a pic of two Chabad “rabbis” in some sort of disco dancing near (not with) two obviously see women. People are putting themselves into tumah just to try to snag a soul to do teshuva while there’s no way that being surrounded by such tumah doesn’t affect them… It’s not Chabad, it’s the kiruv idea that makes no sense today in this crazy society.

Are people living with their heads in the sand? It’s 2019, not 1980. You can’t know who is male or female today, if people’s parents are their real parents ( goyim/non-frum people are posting videos of surprising results of their dna tests…the results are mamesh like the revelation of who is a bechor during makos bechoros in mitzrayim) and of course the halachik ramifications of who is the real mother of people who got pregnant through artificial means.

Please, just do kiruv with OTDs or those who are floundering. Or in Israel where there’s still a semblence of decency and the knowledge of who is a Jew as many things are under the Rabbinate’s control.

Money for Jewish education should be going to frum people who are struggling financially to keep their kids in frum schools not for some kids who may or may not be Jewish.

I have personally experienced a story 20 years ago! of a girl from Russia who they originally thought was Jewish, they put her through camp Russia and bought her to the US where they put her through high school. Afterwards they found out she’s not even Jewish. And this was 20 years ago when they were many Russian Jews who were becoming baalie teshuvas who set up beautiful Jewish families. But now these stories of non-Jews mix-up is even more than way back then. I have read in Hamodia’s Inyan a few months back about a boy who’s mother was a lying drug addict and the only way they knew this boy was Jewish was because his mother said so. They bought instances in the story where the mother lied and disappeared from the boy’s life in the end after taking money that was supposed to be going to her son’s ticket to bring him to England. And on the basis of what that lying drug addict thief of a mother claimed, the boy was thought to be a Jew…

Aish is very successful. It’s not about changing people, it’s about helping people embrace their Judaism and add mitzvos. It’s not all or nothing.

More unaffiliated Jews in America associate with Israel than with religion. It’s a door opener.

Before your criticize, open your own worldwide network of yeshivos and do something better.

There were always secular Jews who were anti Israel. There are still secular Jews who are pro Israel.

The anti Israel secular Jews have become more vocal in their distaste for Israel and I think that most of it is fueled by their hatred for trump. I believe that if trump started tweeting against Israel, it might spark within these folk an interest toward Israel.

In the US it’s a different story, but in Israel it’s important to have institutions like Aish where people come to them to get more knowledgable about Judaism. Even if most of these people don’t end up religious, it’s still important to have the availability of these classes for people who search for meaning and truth in life. Regarding their pro-Zionism stand they may not have much of a choice if that’s what gets them the $ to be able to continue to do what they are doing. I don’t think that in the long run Zionism influences anybody for or against becoming religious.

Philosopher, that is the case for some. The question is if it is a new phenomenon that Aish now has to adapt to in order to be successful.

I was saying that it is nothing new but for some people, their hatred for Trump has seemed to make them more anti Israel than they were previously. I was suggesting that since their newer, stronger hatred for Israel seems to be a rebellion against Trump, perhaps if Trump became anti Israel overnight, they might want to feel the opposite as him.

I’m became Torah observant partially through Aish HaTorah. I attended classes and Shabbatot in the US and studied in the Yeshiva in the Old City. Sometime later, I attended a truly Zionist Yeshiva in Jerusalem, that emphasized the teachings of Rav Kook, ZT”L. The differences between the two, were noticeable.

Aish is not Zionistic, but they are certainly not anti-Zionist, they’re basically “parve”. They view the State of Israel positively, but they’re not waiving flags on Yom Haaztmaut. That said, some students and teachers do (wave flags), and others do not. They don’t really care about one’s personal “hashkafa” as long as you learn well and behave decently. Keep in mind I was there thirty years ago, so things may have changed.

Regarding kiruv for liberal Jews that view Israel negatively. How would giving them an anti-Zionist viewpoint help bring these Jews back to observance?

Tshuva comes from Emuna in Hashem, together, with a deep love and connection to the Jewish people, and for some, not always in that order. Kiruv based on division does not sound very appealing, or effective.

I don’t know what all you guys call a success, but in chabad every Mitzvah is a success. Evey mitzvah bring kedusha upon the person no matter his level in Yiddishkiet. Obviously the ultimate is they should become frum, but the goal is to do as much mitzahs has possible.
It’s not Zionism, anti-zionism, Israel, or all the other mishigasim that convince/gets the person to come more affiliated, it’s straight from the neshoma, every mitzvah that you do reveals more of the natural desire every single jew has for Hashem (whether frum or not).
By default every single Jew would be doing all 613 mitzvos it’s just that his neshoma is covered up by dirt. The more you reveal the neshoma the more the more dirt falls off and being able to do more mitzvos and come closer to Hashem.

Agreed. But how do you verify who is an halachik Jew?

Actually you cant, you have to take peoples word on that, there are no records “who is a jew” in the US

In any case, even IF there were official records of who is a Jew, the non-Jewish and secular definition of who is a Jew is different than how halacha defines who is a Jew.

The best kiruv is your own actions. If you meet a non-observant Jew, invite him/her for Shabbat some time. Let them see the pleasure of a Torah life firsthand. Do not outsource to Aish or Lubavich or anyone else — everyone should be interested in all Jews.

i’ve been by quite a few oorah programs and they are extremely successful without any agenda . your wording generally not successful is really not accurate .

” I have see a pic of two Chabad “rabbis” in some sort of disco dancing near (not with) two obviously see women.”

Conclusion, all Chabad rabbis would go disco dancing? Chas Veshalom! Using the same logic, if you saw a black hatter yeshivish man who turned out to be a molester, would you say that all black-hatter yeshivish men are molesters? The same way we don’t just the entire Jewish community by the outliers in the community, you shouldn’t judge all chabad rabbis as not being makpid on tznius.

“You can’t know who is male or female today, if people’s parents are their real parents ( goyim/non-frum people are posting videos of surprising results of their dna tests…the results are mamesh like the revelation of who is a bechor during makos bechoros in mitzrayim) and of course the halachik ramifications of who is the real mother of people who got pregnant through artificial means.”

You seem to believe, based on this and other posts, that this is common. Where is your data coming from?

“Philosopher pointed out that many of those who claim to be Jews but not religious are actually halachicly gentiles and not Jews.”

Philosopher is saying that all forms of kiruv rechokim must stop based on the assumption that the above is common.

I dont think the issue is people who are not halachically jews, the issue is people cannot PROVE they are jews

You really have to take people’s word they are jewish, especially people from not charedi (In charedi communities, everyone sort of knows everyone are knows someone who knows someone) communities where people sort of come and go or whose familes might have been in the US before World war 1

It is very common for people with Jewish fathers or whose mother or mother’s mother had a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother as well as those who descend from “converts” done by Reform and Conservative “rabbis” (or adoptees of Conservative and Reform families) to think they are fully Jewish without for a second doubting their Jewishness. And then meet up with a kiruv professional who accepts their alleged Jewishness for granted without ever realizing they are halachicly Goyim. And some of these non-Jews who think they are Jewish r”l integrate into an Orthodox community and marry (or their children marry) within the Orthodox world.

“And then meet up with a kiruv professional who accepts their alleged Jewishness for granted”

Not sure if this is motzei shem rah on all Kirin professionals or just most. I have personally help in the process of researching the background and paperwork of people who grew up believing thwy were jewish from more than one agency and i am not even affiliated with them, i was merely asked to help.

Grey matter and interjection, it is a false conclusion that you have come to and are spreading about what I’ve said. I’ve said “…but I just want to point out the hypocrisy of some people trying to do kiruv in spiritual snake pits…” I specifically said “some poeple” but maybe for people who don’t want to understand what I’ve really said, I should’ve stressed with capitalizing the entire word “some” so that my words cannot be misconstrued. I never said all Lubavitchers and I’ve never said all who do kiruv place themselves in bad situations. That is a lie.

And I’ve never said ALL kiruv is bad. That is an outright lie. I definitely say that no one can know for sure if those whose ancestors have assimilated for a few generations are Jewish. Do people realize that Jews have assimilated for over two millennia, through being sold into slavery, through forced conversions, through the “Enlightenement”, etc…and never has there been a movement to “bring them back” because after two or three or more generations, there is mixture with the general population and it’s not possible to know for sure who is Jewish.

And do you really think that the intensely immoral secular world of today only affects goyim but not secular Jews or even assimilated Jews? Good for you if you don’t know what’s out there, but it doesn’t change reality. Secular Jews (including of course the hundreds of thousands who are not halachically Jews but consider themselves Jews) are mostly liberals who support and have to a large extent adopted the liberal cause and way of life.

Grey matter, ok, that’s your opinion. My opinion, based on the realities of our current situation is very different obviously.

While I’m against doing kiruv in the US because people can consider themselves Jewish but come from a few generations back of assimilated Jewish background and it can be impossible to know for sure if they are halachik Jews, there are exceptions where kiruv is needed and is happening successfully and that is in Jewish communities like the Bucharian community in the US. Jewish communities who originate from the Caucasian regions, even those who are not religious, have not assimilated but there’s danger of that happening to their children who are attending public school. Kol hakovod to those bringing these Jews back and saving their generations from being lost to our people.

I just want to amend my previous post that many Bucharians are frum to begin with, I didn’t mean to generalize them only just state a fact that there there communities in the US with Jews who have not assimilated but their children are in danger of doing so. I support kiruv for Jews who have not assimilated into the non-Jewish world.

I think the vast majority if not all kiruv ppl are well aware of yichus issues. Every case must be taken on an individual basis. If you actually learn halacha you might see the standards for accepting someone as a Jew are different than what you imagine. There’s no concept in halacha of “beyond a reasonable doubt”. We deal with chazaka, reiusa, edus, anan sahadei, etc. It’s a complex sugya and real, responsible poskim should be consulted. Just because we know there are a lot of people out there with questionable yichus doesn’t speak to the status of any given person that coming before us and in my opinion לענ”ד shouldn’t put a damper on kiruv efforts.

zahavasdad, I also can’t trace my ancestors further than my great-granparents:-) …it was second cousins and great uncles who are into yichus stuff who had the knowledge and abilities to trace our ancestors. I’m sure there are people who could trace the ancestors of your great-grandparents, it requires skill but I’m sure the knowledge is out there somewhere .

Anyway, my point is not how far back we can go but from where we shtam. If your great-granparents were frum Jews then they came from families whose ancestors were frum Jews or geirim… who also ended up marrying into frum families. Years ago you could rely on the fact that if your grandmother was Jewish she definitely came from Jewish ancestry. .. What ancestry are we creating today for our future generations? Safek Jewish ancestry, that’s what.

How about we focus all this energy and money on confused and struggling frum kids who don’t fit into the mold, on non-assimilated but not frum families and communities, on OTDs, etc. There are many ways where we need to strengthen our communities and help our own kids, I don’t see why kiruv needs to be done on safek Jews. Of course, for those who are searching and come to us for answers the door should always be open, but there’s no reason to run after people who intermarried for generations and it’s oftentimes impossible to know for certain where they shtam from. This secular generation is just the worst because the secular lifestyle today is simply crazy massive immorallity and besides for the Jewish ancestry question, we can’t take other stuff about people for granted today as well…