Is abortion Murder?

Beis Din couldn’t execute a Jew for it. For goyim (with different rules of evidence), abortion and infanticide were frequently cited as a way in which the goyim often violate the sheva mitzvos bnei Noach. Remember as well, that until recently, most people were unaware the unborn children were sentient (that was part of the logic under Roe v Wade to allow killing them – and why the use of ultrasound player a major role in the growth of the pro-life movement).

We need to update the question.

Is murder a bore shoin?

There are some good shiurim on this on Torah anytime. Basically it’s a machlokes – I believe Rav Moshe Feinstein holds it’s murder to have an abortion after 40 days of pregnancy even though it is not chayav misa in Beis din and even though there is an exception for saving the mother’s life, which doesn’t exist by other types of murder. Other poskim, including Tzitz Eliezer hold that it is not murder, though still strictly ossur except in limited circumstances. Everyone agrees that that it is ossur under Sheva mitzvos bnei Noach. A Ben Noach who performs an abortion would be chayav misa whether it is murder or not, because misa applies to all Sheva mitzvos Bnei Noach. It’s also agreed, I believe, that where abortion is prohibited, only the person performing the abortion would be chayav. If the mother requested it but didn’t perform it, she would be chayav only for lifnei iver.

R’ Tendler zt”l quoted a Meiri that says the reason we don’t give the death penalty to a Jew for abortion is because the sin is so bad, even death can’t atone for it. We don’t give punishments except where it is a kapparah. He says the sin is so terrible that only Hashem can give a proper punishment.

“Why would it be more strict by a goy?”

The same reason a goy is chayiv misa for theft.

“A Ben Noach who performs an abortion would be chayav misa whether it is murder or not, because misa applies to all Sheva mitzvos Bnei Noach. It’s also agreed, I believe, that where abortion is prohibited, only the person performing the abortion would be chayav. If the mother requested it but didn’t perform it, she would be chayav only for lifnei iver.”

Which means if it is a self-abortion, such as the over the counter or prescription medication she takes, the mother would be chayiv misa.

“Which means if it is a self-abortion, such as the over the counter or prescription medication she takes, the mother would be chayiv misa.”

Correct.

jakkk,

What issue is there for a nochri to eat Rocky Mountain Oysters? Who said they are ever min hachay?

ujm, are you by any chance a gilgul of Robespierre?

Obviously no court is enforcing the death penalty on 7 mitzvos bnei Noach today, but the fact that certain aveiros would be chayav misa should be a warning to us that they are more serious than we might have otherwise thought.

If there were courts enforcing the death penalty on 7 mitzvos BN, it would be in the context of a society that has as a whole accepted those mitzvos and understands their severity, so the application of misa would be something that happens rarely and after a lot of deliberation, hence the Robespierre analogy does not fit. But the fact that the death penalty does not exist today in practice for 7 mitzvos bnei Noach (except for murder in some jurisdictions) should not lead us to think that prohibitions are less severe.

Philosopher, the gelolei haposkim put a lot of thought and argument into determining whether abortion is murder so I think the question is legitimate. But I think you are correct that it should be obvious to anyone straight-thinking person that it is terrible and immoral except in rare, extreme cases. I would also add that in a case where there is hefkerus and lack of respect regarding a particular mitzvah, it makes sense to be as machmir as possible, and this would be one of those cases.

(My list is heavy on Achronim becasue Rishonim’s views are often in dispute. For example R’ Moshe held the Rambam views abortion as murder; the Achiezer and Minchas chinuch argue, but according to some yo ucan add the Rambam to the bove list. Similarly the Achiezer brings from a Ran in chullin that it isnt murder, though again others dispute this.

also, as mentioned in previous threads; not murder does not equal muttar. This should be obvious but this point often gets lost so it is worth repeating. One poster mistakenly suggested if it isnt murder it should be celebrated. A contention that is utterly baffling )

“but i believe that Rav Shlomo Zalman considered abortion to be Retzichah for Jews also”

I’m not sure if he wrote anything himself on the matter. Both Nishmas Avraham and Shulchan Shlomo (hilchas refuah) write that he held it is gezel

“our bubehs and zaydahs* would be infinitely more shocked at the actual discussion that frum jews are having about baby killing. They’d recoil in horror at the shattering of skulls, dismemberment and brutal torture that abortion often entails. And they would scream “murderer!” Without getting into any shailos if it’s *really* murder or not.

On the other hand, there is the idea that when a prohibition is being treated lightly, it’s necessary to be extra strict, so maybe such a law would be a good idea. Tzarich iyun…

Dear Ujm,

I disagree. As the Rambam did. The Lubavitcher Rebbe agreed with your idea.

“they’d recoil in horror at the shattering of skulls…” Dilation and extraction abortions have been illegal nationally since 2003 . Many state our laws prohibited this procedure prior to 2003. This is US law.

I don’t remember but it was discussed in a tshuva from one of the gedolei poskim. Maybe the yaavetz, but I’m not sure. I also don’t remember what the final psak was, but it was not as poshut as it might seem.

I believe the tzitz eliezer was matir abortions for babies with Tay Sachs if I remember correctly, though this was controversial.

You’re right that that psak of the tzitz eliezer, who’s quoted a lot by the aforementioned nonchalant “Orthodox jews”, was extremely controversial. Maran Rav Moshe feinstein was in a totally different leafue than him, and not only did he say it is murder and prohibited in all cases, save for when the mother’s life is in jeopardy, but he denied the veracity of opinions to the contrary, saying that Hashem should forgive the achronim who wrote that it’s mutar in kach vekach circumstance.

This may not be easily palatable, but as someone who learns dibros moshe, I believe rav moshe was on the level of the early achronim. Besides rav akiva eiger, I’ve never seen anything like rav moshe, in depth, breadth, lomdus, rigor, comprehensiveness, everything. If rav moshe dismisses something as crucial as this, it is not to be taken lightly.

In any other area in halacha, would we say something is a “machlokes rav moshe and the tzitz eliezer”? They’re not in the same universe, as big of a talmid chacham as the tzitz eliezer was – he was, in fact, a big posek and wayyyy bigger than me and anyone else here, but nobody who knew both figures would compare them. The only people i would compare rav moshe with in his time were the chazon ish, brisker rov, tchebiner, satmar rov, and not many others.

Avira,
you may be right and your opponents holding by minority opinion, but generally exalting R Moshe to press people to disregard a different serious posek is simply halachic bullying. With pasken with R yohachan against Resh Lakish in almost all cases, but R Yohanan did not resort to “do you know who I am” argument and one time when it became personal did not end well and is probably a lesson for us.

AAQ, is it bullying to say that if the rabbi of a young Israel shul thinks that halacha is kach vekach, and then you show him a teshuva from rav Moshe, does that constitute a machlokes between rabbi steven and rav moshe?

We all understand this idea to some extent. When it comes to fundamentals, we need to rely on the gedolei gedolim, the bearers of the mesorah, and not every qualified posek(like the tzitz eliezer) is in that category.

Dear Avira,

That is a question for Rav Moshe. There are instances where Rav Moshe had strong opinions, yet specifically stated that others are allowed to disagree. I don’t know how far it goes. But Rav Waldenberg was definitely in the category of the others who disagreed with Rav Moshe. [The four you mentioned is an odd collection.] What is your basis for this idea?

AAQ
” but generally exalting R Moshe to press people to disregard a different serious posek is simply halachic bullying”

I don;lt think its bullying, I think heis new t oall this . So he thinks Saying “R’ Moshe ” over and over and telling us how great he was (As if the rest of us don;t know) is a winning argument,

As he learns more he’ll fins several pesakim

This on the other hand ” They’d recoil in horror at the shattering of skulls, dismemberment and brutal torture that abortion often entails.” is a bt more bullying.

Though it too is irrelevent. My Bubbeh would recoil in horro at a description of how Sereifa is done. That doesnt mean we skip the end of Sanhedrin come to think of it there are a few blat in Yevamos she’d recoil from too, I guess we skip those ?

No reasonable person thinks that abortion is not murder.

Its a completely ridiculous idea that removing a neshomo from a guf is not murder bc of the physical location of the guf.

The neshomo comes in at 40 days. This is chazal.

By definition killing is the removal of a neshomo from a guf. Killing is actually called נטילת נשמה. When done premeditatively it is murder.

The Rambam calls the halchos of murder הלכות רוצח ושמירת נפש. Emphasis on nefesh. Which comes in at 40 days.

If you think you have a source that says as such you are simply misreading or it is a false source (like the false Rashba R Moshe exposes)

Its a mefurash chazal that has no cholkim that the issur comes from שופך דם האדם באדם – The prohibition of murder.

There are no gemoras and no rishonim who dispute this. End of discussion. I am just quoting R Moshe. Anyone who argues is simply making things up wo any basis at all. Again , R Moshe in language he never uses. This is what R Moshe says. He also writes שרי ליה מאריה on the חכם אחד (the tzitz Eliezer) a very derogatory term. Not R Moshes way at all. This was clearly a breach of halakhic norm not just another legitimate machlokes. The tzitz Eliezer let his pity on Tay Sachs babies and or their parents overide clear halocho and R Moshe called him out on it . Tay Sachs is indeed horrible and people like Reb Eliezer here also seem to think that that is enough of a basis to be mattir. Bc the Torah can’t be cruel like that. The tzitz Eliezer fell into the same trap Reb Eliezer did.

Nothing is ever more chamur in Din for a goy over a Jew. Only the punishment goyim are chayyav misa for things yidden are not.
But you never find that for a yid something is muttar and for a goy it is assur.

And bichlal to say that it is murder for a goy but not for a yid is simply absurd and irrational. Either it is murder or it isn’t. You can’t just make things up. Again, removing a neshomo from a guf is killing by definition. When premeditated and not a shliach Beis Din or a השכם להורגו situation it becomes murder. By definition.

The fact that there is no chiyyuv misa on abortion could be like was quoted in the name of R Tendler. Or more simply, it is like not being chayyav misa for premeditated murder via a grommo. To actually be chayyav misa it is not enough to murder, there are other technicalities involved that we can speculate as to why they are true. But killing via a grommo is no less murder than killing direct regardless of the penalty.

Someone quoted R Shlomo Zalman as being mattir abortions.
Surprise surprise, lo hada”m.

See נשמת אברהם חושן משפט סימן תכה.

The chutzpa to quote a non existent psak as halacho is astonishing.

R Shlomo Zalman even assers doing amniocentesis to see if Tay Sachs is present.

If a woman is raped, r”l, an abortion pill may be taken up to 72 hours – no more – from the rape.

A doctor must not perfrom an abortion or put a woman under in order for an abortion to be done by someone else even under Pain of losing ones parnosso.

One may not even perform an ultrasound to determine if an abortion will take place. Here there is an exception though if one will lose his parnosso if he does not perform the ultrasound.

These are piskei din from r Shlomo Zalman.

Stop being motzi Shem Ra on one of the gedolei hador and gonask mechila. Alternatively,learn how to read before quoting someone.