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Very often you hear stories about a Jew who wants to open a business which is a good idea and unique only to be turned down by a Kashrus Agency due to it may “be a hangout”, having tv or playing non Jewish music. Is this our way?
Yes
According to you would you have a kashrus agency give a hashgacha to a night club?
A hechsher gives the impression that the certifying agency is approving of what goes on in the establishment.
How is not giving a hechser to an establishment where bad behavior will take place make someone into the moral police? That is no more being the moral police than not selling matches to a little kid.
A heksher is a private recommendation business (at least in the US) and can choose their standards. People are relying on it for reputation. Try getting a different heksher and see if people will trust it. The questionable area would be if the agency uses pressure to not let competitors in.
if people know what the heksher stands for, I see no problem them having their own standards. This is like that baker and a cake that went to Supreme Court. As long as it is possible to get a different heksher.
if you look hard enough you could find some kashruth agency that would give a hecksher to a casino or a brothel (businesses prohibited by halacha), but I certainly wouldn’t eat there
Akuperma,
There are some “rabbis” that will do intermarriage but I wouldn’t rely on them either
50% of the decisions, operations and Hashkafa of most hashgachas have nothing to do with Halacha. You guys know that right?
YO: Are you still an adherent of Avi Weiss’ OO?
YO, have you gone through yore deah to know that?
No, I’m an adherent of Emes. Plus, let’s not forget that based on your previous analyses (plural), we’ve determined that there’s an interruption in your Mesorah. So you are summarily unqualified to talk about Kashrus.
YO
I did not know that.
Can you give an example?
Apparently that emes includes calling someone by the opposite gender, as children do in 3rd grade.
And apparently being intolerant of alphabet soup ideology creeping its way into the Torah world makes me non-masoretic.
Hotels in the Catskills which years ago had reliable hashgochos would not qualify today to get one. I am not talking about goiyesha places like Grossinger’s or The Concord. I am talking about places like Gartenberg & Schechter’s Pioneer Country Club or Leibowit’s Pine View Hotel which was frequented by the frum oilem including many choshuv Rabbonim. They had mixed swimming and presented female vocalists at their shows.
Primary concern of hashgochos is the reputation of their “brand.”
They don’t want their “brand” associated with things that the community Rabbonim will condemn or that ordinary people will chatter about.They’re careful to not give hashgocha to anything that might taint their organization’s reputation (and market value).
Nothing to do with morals or even with halacha.
If you think it did, try complaining sometime that the heimishe supermarket is playing games with their scales or overcharging in some other sneaky way — “None of my business” will be the hashgocha’s inevitable reply.
Shlomo: The Marriott, the Sheraton and the Hyatt are also frequented by the frum oilem including many choshuv Rabbonim. That doesn’t mean any of them could or should get a hechsher.
Heimeshe supermarkets have faulty scales? I’m not מקבל! לשון הרע!
For example, giving a Hechsher to water that comes directly from filtered water pipes (zero chashash for grapes, etc.). Have you ever heard of “kosher” water??
Another example is a Hashgacha requiring the food manufacturer to use ingredients/coponents only with THEIR Hashgacha. In other words, Hashgacha Gimmel requiring a muffin manufacturer to use flour, sugar etc etc with Gimmel, and not from equally-reliable Daled. That is not Halacha, that is money.
The chevra who wants to chase after their taavos in a kosher way never ceases to amaze me.
The simple difference between refusing a hashgocha due to environment, culture, “hang out” status, a bar with TV, etc…and issues regarding paying workers, taxes, etc…is very simple to understand to the unbiased mind.
What someone does in their personal life is not the business of the mashgiach. The same way we don’t check in on him in his house to see if he keeps shabbos and taharas mishpacha – now if information of those things came to light, we wouldn’t be able to rely on the owner as a shomer shabbos person, but that’s a different story.
What the hashgochos are concerned with is…what are we making available to the tzibur? Are we opening the gates of immoral behavior and outside influence to people for whom Kashrus is the sole bulwark preventing them from going to sports bars, etc…?
That has zero to do with the ethics of the owner or how he runs his business.
lakewhut – your definition of a “good idea” including television makes me wonder if you’re here just to troll.
Would you want young people who dont have TV at home being able to go to a “kosher” place to watch it?
but…but…but what’s wrong with TV?
What’s NOT wrong with TV! The 3 chamuros, every kind of apikorsus and avodah zara, pritzus, and mind-numbing stupidity, all in one convenient package. What’s not to love?
That is not Halacha, that is money.
You seem like some bitter kid who just wants to bad mouth frum Jews/communities. I don’t know about you but when I have no first hand information about a topic, I don’t assume my ignorant assumptions are facts.
There are reasons why a hechsher would do this and if you really wanted to know, and not just be mikatreg, you would ask, not state.If I am going to put my name on a program, treatment plan, project or anything else I couldn’t do it without knowing the components of it. If someone wants me to help administer a treatment plan that uses equipment I never checked, Id be a liar to put my name on it. There is something out there called integrity and consistency. Check it out. And meanwhile maybe the mods can sort thru some of your topics and posts that are serving no purpose other than to make trouble.
Syag, no bitterness. Why do you give hashgachas full rein? What’s your take on “kosher” water? Or “kosher” table cloths. Which siman in S”A talks about kosher vs. unkosher water?
This is a good question and leads into a subject that a lot of liberal Jews are talking about. Namely, should a kashrus agency certify a company that engages in tza’ar ba’alei chaim? There are Rabbonim who say that we shouldn’t eat veal, because the calf needs to basically be tortured to produce it and regular beef is just as available.
UJM The Hyatt, Sheraton, and Marriott do not advertise themselves as Glatt Kosher resorts to the Orthodox community as the Catskill resorts that I mentioned did. My main point is that what was acceptable to the mainstream Orthodox community back in the 1960s and 70s is no longer acceptable today. Everything has moved dramatically to the right.
You say no bitterness but you post posts and threads attacking different behaviors and customs and beliefs. And not in kind thought provoking ways wither. I didn’t say I give anyone free reign and the topic doesn’t interest me. I only posted to ask you to change your perspective and hopefully approach because I question that your posts are not full of motzei shem rah or lashon hora
Some would say we’ve moved to the right. Others might say it was an overdue correction for all the leftward forces since haskala began.
Let’s try the reverse. Can The Moral Police be an effective kashrus agency?
Shlomo, if your definition of a radical right shift is not mixed swimming….the steipler wrote that he was shocked to learn rhat thar there were people who consider themselves religious who do that, which is yehereg velo yaavor…an issur related to giluy arayos.
Chazal say a woman who bathes with men is to be divorced; asks the gemara, do you think she actually bathes with them?? Unthinkable! Rather she walks around in a bath robe showing men that she just bathed.
Funny how it’s none of the business of the hashgachos what goes on in the establishments they are certifying, but it’s everyone’s business how a hashgacha runs its own business.
Yabia Omer,
“50% of the decisions, operations and Hashkafa of most hashgachas have nothing to do with Halacha. You guys know that right?”
86% of the statistics thrown out on the CR are completely made up. You guys know that right?
Yabia Omer,
“For example, giving a Hechsher to water that comes directly from filtered water pipes (zero chashash for grapes, etc.). Have you ever heard of “kosher” water??”
Is bottled water not heated at some point during the process? Even so, it’s true that plain bottled water does not require a hechsher. But why are you ragging on the kashrus agencies when it’s the bottling companies’ decision to get the hechsher on their products?
“Another example is a Hashgacha requiring the food manufacturer to use ingredients/coponents only with THEIR Hashgacha. In other words, Hashgacha Gimmel requiring a muffin manufacturer to use flour, sugar etc etc with Gimmel, and not from equally-reliable Daled. That is not Halacha, that is money.”
Ah yes, those Jooz and their money. Can you think of other reasons a hashgacha might limit the ingredients to products they can personally vouch for?
If mainstream kashrus agencies would give hasgacha there are always the 2nd, 3rd and 4th tier hashgachas such as the Shakey K.
I think something that needs to be said is that a kashrus agency often relies on the honesty of the owners to keep the food kosher. And they cannot rely on an owner who is not yashrus themselves.
“Is bottled water not heated at some point during the process?“
Avraham, what’s the problem with that? Bishel akum?
Akuperma
“if you look hard enough you could find some kashruth agency that would give a hecksher to a casino or a brothel (businesses prohibited by halacha), but I certainly wouldn’t eat there”
-but would you go there and not eat?Akuperma
“if you look hard enough you could find some kashruth agency that would give a hecksher to a casino or a brothel (businesses prohibited by halacha), but I certainly wouldn’t eat there”
-but would you go there and not eat?Yserb, a mumar for geneiva is not pasul for testifying about Kashrus al pi aid echad neeman be’issurim, as long as he’s known to be careful about kashrus
Agency relies on the owner?! Thank you very much, I can rely on the owner myself, why do I need an agency for that?! The agency, I think, is supposed to provide independent assessment.
Interesting question about geneiva. Yes, such a person can testify about kashrus – but would this only apply to someone else? If it is his own business, then he has monetary interest and that is why we have an agency to begin with. So, not sure this would work.
In general, our generation is more careful about kashrus than geneiva, so we need to be more careful and check our biases. I already recounted here a story about a visiting speaker who went thru lots of business halochos: very machmir on kashrus and yichud, and very meikel on very basic geneiva where there is no need to be meikel (can you double bill your clients for a trip? not really, but sometimes …). I was embarrassed to ask about this difference publicly given enthusiasm of all listeners and was relived when Rosh Kollel picked up on this and started shouting – geneiva! geneiva! I asked the speaker later in private and he explained that he is strict on problems that sometimes lead to family breakups, but wants to let yidden have it easier when things are not that serious …
so, ironically, I presume if you find pork in the store somewhere in the corner, it will lose certification because of a hashash; but if you find wrong weights – isur in the Torah – he may not!?
Aaq, hashgochos rely on the owner only to a low degree. He’s not the Mashgiach. He doesn’t verify labels, etc…but having a frum person around can remove the need for a Mashgiach temidi, vis a vis basar she’nisalem min ha’ayin, and other such concerns.
Not allowing people to sell food without hashgocha is mentioned jn the achronim, because a ln owner is nogaya bedavar. But for some things, as mentioned, there’s room to be meikil.
Ths OU doesn’t hold of it, and requires a Mashgiach temidi in restaurants.
” Is bottled water not heated at some point during the process? ”
No, it’s not.
Avira, thanks for the clarification. What is the situation in a small community (it could be a large city, but a small community within it). If I know the owner personally, he is given kibudim in shul, etc – can I eat in his restaurant? How did people buy food from someone else before hashgohos?
YO
sorry for the late reply
None of your examples are true“For example, giving a Hechsher to water that comes directly from filtered water pipes (zero chashash for grapes, etc.). Have you ever heard of “kosher” water??”
I dont understand this example, Are you saying it isnt kosher? How is this an example of them not following shulchan aruch. Water is kosher and they certify that it is. What is the problem?
Another example is a Hashgacha requiring the food manufacturer to use ingredients/components only with THEIR Hashgacha.”
This is not true. kashrus agencies regularly allow ingredients from other agencies that have similar standrads. There is an organization AKO that sets/discusses these standards.
You claim to be “an adherent of Emes. ” Yet to back up your claim
“50% of the decisions, operations and Hashkafa of most hashgachas have nothing to do with Halacha. You guys know that right?” You could only come up[ wit htwo examples one of which is not against halacha, and the other isnt true.Presumably these are your better examples of your “50% of decisions” claim
Looking forward to you becoming an adherent of emes, and acknowledging that you made that up“How did people buy food from someone else before hashgohos”?
1. You relied on knowing the owner, including whom he/she followed in terms of halacha. Very few Jews lived in communities so large that everyone didn’t know everyone else (note: until the early 20th century, even the United States was still largely a nation of farmers).
2. Restaurants rarely existed before the end of the 19th century. Also there were very few processed foods, and almost all food was grown locally and processed by the buyer and their friends. While there are advantages of buying and processing only local grown foodstuffs, any local disruption would result in famine.
3. Products that had to shipped, such as wine, a hasghacha was needed, and wine often had several (e.g. the Rav in France where it was produces, the Rav in Prague who knew and trusted the Rav in France, and your local Rav who knew and trusted the Rav in Prague, etc.).
“I dont understand this example, Are you saying it isnt kosher? How is this an example of them not following shulchan aruch. Water is kosher and they certify that it is. What is the problem?”
I need a hashgacha agency to tell me water is kosher? Vechi water cannot be kosher? That is what I mean. So it is shtusim. If you buy into it and do not believe in your own personal harchavas hadaas, then it’s ok. I have no tainos on people who decide to wear blinders with the acknowledgment that they have blinders.
you obviously don’t understand the process. Why not go do some research before sitting and complaining about it?
Yabia,
Do you know Dasani water is tap water? Now what if that tap water was unfiltered (like in NYC) and there are rabbanim (I know rabbi belsky disagreed) that say that it needs to be filtered
In that case does water need a hechsher?
YO
“I need a hashgacha agency to tell me water is kosher?”
You don’t, who says you do?
Even for Pesach the OU says you don;t need a hashgacha (from their website “All unflavored and without the addition of minerals bottled water, seltzer and sparkling water is kosher for Passover, even without any kosher supervision”)You have blinders. You are so blinded by hate that you just spew nonsense.
You said “50% of the decisions, operations and Hashkafa of most hashgachas have nothing to do with Halacha”
to back this up you said “For example, giving a Hechsher to water” what is this an example of?
where in shulchan Aruch does it say water can’t be kosher?It is kosher the company wants it certified so they certify it what seif of Shulchan Aruch does this oppose
THE OU doesnt tell you you cant buy Water without a hashgacha. EVEN for PEsach
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