- This topic has 97 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 1 month ago by .
-
Posts
-
I’ve never heard of any one assuring…
You do whatever you want if you’ve “never heard of any one assuring”, without asking a shaila? You are a buki on every issur in halacha?
…other than on the actual day Dec 25 (when there’s no mail anyway). Is there any source that says there’s an issur during the “holiday season”?
Do you also put up a Christmas tree before or after Dec. 25, so long as it isn’t up on Dec. 25 bo b’yom? Do you do the easter eggs thing so long as it isn’t on Easter bo b’yom? Can you mark Palm Sunday so long as you don’t do so on the actual Sunday?
Why are you afraid of asking a shaila??
joseph: This sentence: Even assuming the stories were true, which is an assumption, it could well be they weren’t aware of the origins or history of All Hollows Day and Halloween.
R’ Yaakov and Rav Pam were both well versed in these areas. If you want to go to an extreme for yourself, and not give out candy, kol hakovod. My Rosh Yeshiva stated outright that one can give candy to the children who come to your door on Halloween.
No. Unless you accept anecdotal stories that were never written or spoken,”
They were both written and spoken.
Rabbi reisman has told the Rav Pam story. I believe the r yaakov anecdote is in his biography cowritten by his son.
As far as holiday gifts there are teshuvos on the subject with many matirrim. As you well know starting with the terumas gadeshen through the modern day.“And even if you do accept all that, as I explained above, there are so many more gedolei yisroel with the opposite opinion (based on the logic used to ascertain these apparent opinions.)”
Unless they turned away children it proves nothing.
“You do whatever you want if you’ve “never heard of any one assuring”, without asking a shaila?”
What. No? I’ve asked many times including to R Dovid who you were motzi Laz about.
“Do you also put up a Christmas tree before or after Dec. 25, so long as it isn’t up on Dec. 25 bo b’yom?”
What? No why would I what are you talking about?
” Can you mark Palm Sunday so long as you don’t do so on the actual Sunday?”
I’m not sure what that means. Yes I shook a palm frond a few weeks ago though if it isn’t palm Sunday it isn’t marking palm Sunday. Your question doesn’t make sense“Why are you afraid of asking a shaila??”
I’ve asked as mentioned. R’ Dovid was incredulous that anybody would think giving candy on Halloween was assure.
You are free to disagree you are not free to say it has no support
ubiq: Those comments were to APY (whose comments I quoted before making the comments you’re quoting), not you.
iac: You do not know that they “were both well versed in these areas”. In the pre-internet era it was not common knowledge among the general population even in the countries that celebrate this, and even by gentiles – let alone Jews, what the origins of Halloween was. And Halloween wasn’t hardly known altogether in the European shtetl as it is mostly celebrated in English-speaking countries. You think the rabbonim are all bukis in all the Christian and secular holidays, including their origins?
Remah Y”D 148:12
Brings the above mentioend terumas hadeshen as halacha lemaiseh. though I misspoke because he even alows on their holiday if there is no other optionוְכֵן אִם שׁוֹלֵחַ דּוֹרוֹן לְעוֹבֵד כּוֹכָבִים בַּזְּמַן הַזֶּה, בְּיוֹם [ח’ שֶׁאַחַר נִיטֶל שֶׁקוֹרְאִים ניי’ יֹאר] אֶחָד שֶׁיֵּשׁ לָהֶם סִימָן אִם יַגִּיעַ לָהֶם דּוֹרוֹן בֶּחָג הַהוּא, אִם אֶפְשָׁר לוֹ יִשְׁלַח לוֹ מִבָּעֶרֶב; וְאִם לֹא, יִשְׁלַח לוֹ בֶּחָג עַצְמוֹ
Surely the Remah can be relied upon. Yes you are a big tzaddik and cant be bothered with the Remah. But please dont criticize weaker yidden when their actions have support
Joseph,
There are a couple of points you really missed.
You are so concerned with asking a Shyalah” when you really don’t understand what the shayleh is all about, as you are total confusing issues. No one asked if you can “celebrate’ Halloween, rather, the question was if you can give a gift or candy משום דרכי שלום or איבה. That is not equivalent to celebrating, or following anything of chukos hagoy.
Your lack of basic knowledge on this sugya is astounding, anyone familiar a bit, knows that in חו”ל gifts are only assur the very same day, there are different levels of AZ ,Chgam and אידם . You are mixing them all together. For a change, before you attack learn at least the one siman of simple Shulchan Aruch. Go thru YD siman 148:12 the Rema, and you will see all these were already permitted in those times. No need to say that it is permitted when the ones celebrating are not even religious, or even Xtians in the first place.GAON:
You wrote: “No one asked if you can “celebrate’ Halloween”; Note that the very title of this thread is “Is A Jew Permitted To Celebrate Halloween?”
As to the rest of your comment, you continue to peddle an ignorance as to what Halloween is, represents, its history and its very significance to avoda zora and Christianity.
Once you educate yourself on what Halloween is and represents, you’ll see the comparison between giving gifts on December 25 and giving candy on October 31. Do you give gifts on December 25 to people celebrating Christmas that aren’t religious or even Christian?
Ubiq,
Well said, if the critics would have only learned a bit, you wouldn’t have this whole argument. Had they only understood the very basis of the issur, you wouldn’t have to be busy differentiating.
אם אין דעת – הבדלה מניןJoseph
you asked
“Do you give gifts on December 25 to people celebrating Christmas that aren’t religious or even Christian?”As Akuperma said
“I give the atheist bus driver his monetary gift, and the buddhist mailman his bottle of scotch. In their mind, and in my mind, it has nothing to do with the guy supposedly born in a manger with a mezuman of wise men.”The gifts on December 25th have little to do with “celebrating Christmas”
joseph: Your disparaging remarks of two of the previous generation of gedolim, IMHO, should never have been approved. You don’t think they knew the origins of Halloween? Except for you, almost everyone realizes we are not celebrating anything by distributing candy to those children who knock on our door.
iac: There’s nothing disparaging about not knowing every goyishe holiday’s origins. Do you think the rabbonim who disagreed with Rav Elyashiv about sheitels disparaged him when they claimed he misunderstood the origin of Indian hair?
ubiq: That quote is from apy, not akuperma. (And apy is wrong; he doesn’t even want to ask a shaila.) Furthermore, giving Christmas presents on Christmas is wrong. Are you okay with putting the Christmas gifts in red stockings too? After all, that isn’t the “ikkur” of celebrating Christmas either. Are you okay with giving your own kids Christmas presents? Or attending a corporate Christmas party? Putting up a Christmas tree? All that, too, have little to do with “celebrating Christmas”, as you put it. So start decorating your house with cute colorful blinking lights. You’ll make a “Kiddush Hashem” (sic) showing the non-Jewish neighbors how much you respect other’s holidays in our multi-cultural environment.
ubiq, please be moichel if my shprach came across as too shtark. Of course I love you, my dear yiddishe brieder, as always. And if you ever are my guest for Shabbos I will offer you (per your preference) either shlishi, shishi or maftir in the shul I’m gabbai.
“And apy is wrong; he doesn’t even want to ask a shaila.”
(If the moderators have a better word, please edit my comment with a word you feel is more appropriate for this site. ) What a sanctimonious jerk. Who happens to be wrong.
Joseph. Yes, I asked a shayla.
From now on, I will try to make it a habit to alert you to every shayla I ask my Rav, and make you aware of his response. This will (hopefully – but, i’m not holding my breath) alleviate some of the sanctimonious, bordering on disgusting comments and insinuations you make to others on this site.
apy: You were asked three times whether you acted upon your own daas or asked a shaila, and what you asked, and you deflected an answer each time. Even now when pushed you simply say you “asked” something but you still decline to say what you asked and what the answer is. You can’t blame folks for being skeptical in the absence of a response. What was the exact shaila and what was the exact response? Whatever it is, is fine. No one needs names, we’ll take your word, but please simply be clear when commenting.
You received a psak that it is okay to give Christmas presents to non-Jews on Christmas? Only around Christmas? Only around New Years? Only if it is a New Years gift but not a Christmas gift? These nuances make a difference.
In either event, please zats moichel for the acidic tone my comments came across.
Joseph,
<You wrote: “No one asked if you can “celebrate’ Halloween”; Note that the very title of this thread is “Is A Jew Permitted To Celebrate Halloween?”>
Is that really what everyone is debating here?! So far, I haven’t seen a single comment (leave out sarcasm and trolling) supporting any “celebrations”. The headlines are as good as your arguments.<“As to the rest of your comment, you continue to peddle an ignorance as to what Halloween is, represents, its history and its very significance to avoda zora and Christianity.”>
I have news for you: Halacha does NOT operate like that. It does not matter (in this case) how it came about. (I will have to lay out some facts as you can’t read simple siman in SHu”A) what really matters is, what it presents, who celebrates it and, what the acts are.
Fact is, X-mas is an official holiday directly associated with religion (masses at church etc), a tree is an act direct associated with the very Christianity. People celebrating Halloween – as of today – have nothing with any religion, nor is it even represented as a religious holiday. All your research does not matter, as far as giving out ‘trick-or-treat candy goes.
In the above siman we see a clear heter to give money even to monks/priest at the local monastery/church for X-mas and even to party along them, as I will quote siman 148:8 –“אֵין יוֹם הֶחָג אָסוּר אֶלָּא לָעוֹבְדִים בּוֹ בִּלְבַד, אֲבָל הָעוֹבְדֵי כּוֹכָבִים שֶׁשְּׂמֵחִים בּוֹ וְאוֹכְלִים וְשׁוֹתִים וּמְשַׁמְּרִים אוֹתוֹ מִפְּנֵי מִנְהָג אוֹ מִפְּנֵי כְּבוֹד הַמֶּלֶךְ, אֲבָל הֵם אֵינָם מוֹדִים בּוֹ, הֲרֵי אֵלּוּ מֻתָּרִים לָשֵׂאת וְלָתֵת עִמָּהֶם.
יֵשׁ אוֹמְרִים שֶׁאֵין כָּל דְּבָרִים אֵלּוּ אֲמוּרִים אֶלָּא בְּאוֹתוֹ זְמַן, אֲבָל בַּזְּמַן הַזֶּה אֵינָם בְּקִיאִים בְּטִיב אֱלִילִים, לְפִיכָךְ מֻתָּר לָשֵׂאת וְלָתֵת עִמָּהֶם בְּיוֹם חַגָּם וּלְהַלְווֹתָם וְכָל שְׁאָר דְּבָרִים. הַגָּה: וַאֲפִלּוּ נוֹתְנִים הַמָּעוֹת לַכֹּהֲנִים, אֵין עוֹשִׂין מֵהֶם תִּקְרֹבֶת אוֹ נוֹי עֲבוֹדַת כּוֹכָבִים, אֶלָּא הַכֹּהֲנִים אוֹכְלִים וְשׁוֹתִים בּוֹ; וְעוֹד דְּאִית בָּזֶה מִשּׁוּם אֵיבָה אִם נִפְרֹשׁ עַצְמֵנוּ מֵהֶם בְּיוֹם חַגָּם, וְאָנוּ שְׁרוּיִם בֵּינֵיהֶם וּצְרִיכִים לָשֵׂאת וְלָתֵת עִמָּהֶם כָּל הַשָּׁנָה. וְלָכֵן אִם נִכְנַס לָעִיר וּמְצָאָם שְׂמֵחִים בְּיוֹם חַגָּם, יִשְׂמַח עִמָּהֶם מִשּׁוּם אֵיבָה דְּהָוֵי כְּמַחֲנִיף לָהֶם (הַכֹּל בַּטּוּר). וּמִכָּל מָקוֹם בַּעַל נֶפֶשׁ יַרְחִיק מִלִּשְׂמֹחַ עִמָּהֶם אִם יוּכַל לַעֲשׂוֹת שֶׁלֹּא יִהְיֶה לוֹ אֵיבָה בַּדָּבָר. (בֵּית יוֹסֵף בְּשֵׁם הָרַ”ן) וְכֵן אִם שׁוֹלֵחַ דּוֹרוֹן לְעוֹבֵד כּוֹכָבִים בַּזְּמַן הַזֶּה, בְּיוֹם [ח’ שֶׁאַחַר נִיטֶל שֶׁקוֹרְאִים ניי’ יֹאר] אֶחָד שֶׁיֵּשׁ לָהֶם סִימָן אִם יַגִּיעַ לָהֶם דּוֹרוֹן בֶּחָג הַהוּא, אִם אֶפְשָׁר לוֹ יִשְׁלַח לוֹ מִבָּעֶרֶב; וְאִם לֹא, יִשְׁלַח לוֹ בֶּחָג עַצְמוֹ (ת”ה סִימָן קצ”ה).
!אם אין דעת – הבדלה מנין
Joseph, we know your are a holy neshamah, however we have the old klal:
!ולא ע”ה חסידGaon: You are simply, and completely, and absolutely incorrect about the *METZIUS* of Halloween, otherwise known as All Saints’ Day and All Hallows’ Day. It most certainly is an official Christian festival celebrated and consecrated TODAY by the Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican Communion, the Methodist Church, the Lutheran Church, and other Protestant churches. Christian celebration of All Saints’ Day and All Souls’ Day stems from a belief that there is a powerful spiritual bond between those in heaven (the “Church triumphant”), and the living (the “Church militant”). In Catholic theology, the day commemorates all those who have attained the beatific vision in Heaven.
Everything you said about the halachic status of Halloween applies equally to Christmas and vice versa. Christmas, too, is celebrated today in a mostly secular fashion, even by those who aren’t religious and aren’t Christian.
To paraphrase you, the fact is that Halloween is an official holiday directly associated with religion.
joseph
“please be moichel if my shprach came across as too shtark. ”
The issue isnt your shprach. It is your am haaratzos. Youre not sure if ti is allowed? no problem say that. you know that there are legitimate mekilim but think it is better to be machmir? no problem say that.
Please dont misrepresent halacha, I know “Joseph is Joseph” (though sometinmes I too forget) but not all poters know and it creates a real zilzul. (Perhaps the Joseph is joseph” thread can be put up as a sticky or linked by clicking yoru name to remind everybody that your coments are, well, Joseph.)
“Are you okay with putting the Christmas gifts in red stockings too? After all, that isn’t the “ikkur” of celebrating Christmas either.”
No wh ywould I do that?
” Are you okay with giving your own kids Christmas presents? ”
No why would I do that. Though youve of course accused me of giving christams presents on Chanukah, though that is of course nonsensical)“Or attending a corporate Christmas party? ”
Of corse I do, like many Frum yidden. Thoug they call it a “Holiday party”“Putting up a Christmas tree?”
No why would I do that.“All that, too, have little to do with “celebrating Christmas”, as you put it.”
Um, no that is the exact full celebration of Christmas as performed by most Americans today. you described their ENTIRE celebration. Im not sure what you are talking about. “Are you?
ubiq: Please explain the halachic/haskafic difference between a) you giving your non-Jewish neighbors Christmas presents (in red stockings or otherwise) on December 25 and b) you giving your non-Jewish neighbors candy on October 31.
Hint: None.
Im confused
Nu nu so there is no difference. both are mutar as per the Remah.
I happen to think there is a difference, as I am certain you do . Both in the day Halloween vs christmas (your incorrect silliness regarding all saints day which is the day after Haloween aside) AND between giving presents and candy.
“so there is no difference” … “I happen to think there is a difference”
Which one is it? You are saying contradictory responses in the same breath.
If you “happen to think there is a difference”, I asked you to please explain what the halachic/hashkafic differences are between giving Christmas presents and giving Halloween candy bo b’yom.
(It is indesputable that Halloween is an official Christian holiday today, for both Catholics and Protestants. This can easily be confirmed with any church clergyman. All Hollows Eve begins on the evening (Oct. 31) prior to All Saints Day the same way Christmas Eve begins the evening of Dec. 24. These are both holdovers of the church beginning a holiday the evening before the day.)
““so there is no difference” … “I happen to think there is a difference””
Im sorry if that wasnt clear.
I do think that there is a difference.
and even if there isnt a difference (As you claim you believe) then it is stil ok.“I asked you to please explain what the halachic/hashkafic differences are between giving Christmas presents and giving Halloween candy bo b’yom.”
sure. Christmas celebrates the day they believe their “savior” was born. A person in whose name milions upon milions of our ancestors were killed/tortured over millenia both directly oand indirectly. I think t is inappropriate to in any way commemorate that day, even if technicality muttar beleis breira.
I agree celebrating Halloween is assur
discussion as has been pointed out to you . In spite of the headlinedo you really not see the difference between the two?
do you really not see the difference between the two?
No.
I don’t think considering the religious backgrounds of “Official Christian Holiday A” and “Official Christian Holiday B” has an effect in what way a Yid can participate or partake in either of them. Even in the context of giving gifts or sweets to those celebrating Holiday A or Holiday B.
The religious reasons the church established either of the two holidays should have no bearing on the limits of our commemorating or interacting with those holidays, however minor or major.
In short, there’s no halachic or hashkafic difference between giving Halloween candy to your neighbors for a Happy Halloween or giving Christmas presents to your neighbors for a Merry Christmas.
“In short, there’s no halachic or hashkafic difference between giving Halloween candy to your neighbors for a Happy Halloween or giving Christmas presents to your neighbors for a Merry Christmas.”
Im not sure if you deliberately addedd the phrase “…for a Happy Halloween” but that is not our discussion. that is NOT the reason some here give candy nor is it R’ Yaakov’s reason. The candy is given mishum eiva or mipnei darkei shalom.
Aside from the big difference mentioned earlier here is another perhaps bigger one: Christmas presents dont have to given on Dec 25. The mailman doesnt get upset if a check is given on Dec 24, 23 etc. He doesnt even come by on Dec 25. So if it can be avoided it is better to avoid giving present on the actual day (see the Remah). However if kids come by for halloween candy on October 31 it isnt practical to say come by tomorrow.
So let me rephrase: In short, there’s no halachic or hashkafic difference between giving Halloween candy to your neighbors on Oct. 31 mipnei darkei shalom than giving Christmas presents to your neighbors on Dec. 25 mipnei darkei shalom.
To Reb Joseph.
Actual questions asked and the response.
1: Q. If kids come trick or treating may we give them candy.
A. Yes. You may even say happy halloween, enjoy the candy.2: Q. My office has a holiday gift giving party, may I participate (everyone is randomly given a co worker to buy a gift, part of the “game” is for the receiver to figure out who purchased the gift. It is called “holiday” party so as not to “offend” those who do not celebrate on the 25th (who are in the minority), but we all know what it really is.
A. Yes.
3: Q. May I attend my companies holiday party.
A. Yes. Of course, use your seichel, attendance doesnt mean drinking and partying.
4: Q. May we give the bus driver, mailman, newspaper boy a holiday gift.
A. Yes.I am not in the business of second guessing my Rav, so, for the reasons why he answered the way he did, I will defer until such time that I decide to ask.
“there’s no halachic or hashkafic difference between giving Halloween candy to your neighbors on Oct. 31 mipnei darkei shalom than giving Christmas presents to your neighbors on Dec. 25 mipnei darkei shalom.”
I still disagree as I provided 2 differences. One based on origin. and the other based on the Remah “אִם אֶפְשָׁר לוֹ יִשְׁלַח לוֹ מִבָּעֶרֶב” which is easily doable with Christmas but not Halloween.
However if in your opinion this is not a distinction, and in fact the mailman insists on getting his gift on Christmas much like they insist on getting their candy on Halloween. In that imaginary scenario, you are right, there is no difference (aside from the other one I mentioned) and both are muttar.
In case you guys are unaware, it’s actually illegal to tip the mailman, holiday or not.
Mammale that is only partially correct
From USPS website
“All postal employees, including carriers, must comply with the Standards of Ethical Conduct for Employees of the Executive Branch. Under these federal regulations, carriers are permitted to accept a gift worth $20 or less from a customer per occasion, such as Christmas. However, cash and cash equivalents, such as checks or gift cards that can be exchanged for cash, must never be accepted in any amount. Furthermore, no employee may accept more than $50 worth of gifts from any one customer in any one calendar year period.”Joseph,
Again, you are getting too carried away with your Wiki research. As per Halacha leMaisah it has been pointed out that even on xmas its muttar.
Now, as your comparison to xmas, (and as pointed out by Ubiq), there is certainly a difference. And it’s simple – ask any random person “celebrating” Halloween , why or what they are celebrating, their reply will be its just a simple “party” kind of Holiday, although it has been originated by the church/Celtics/pagan and still has some connection, it has been assimilated by all races and religions in the USA as a “party night” (quoting your Wiki אות קט”ז ). Therefore is within the above mentioned category:
אֵין יוֹם הֶחָג אָסוּר אֶלָּא לָעוֹבְדִים בּוֹ בִּלְבַד, אֲבָל הָעוֹבְדֵי כּוֹכָבִים שֶׁשְּׂמֵחִים בּוֹ וְאוֹכְלִים וְשׁוֹתִים וּמְשַׁמְּרִים אוֹתוֹ מִפְּנֵי מִנְהָג אוֹ מִפְּנֵי כְּבוֹד הַמֶּלֶךְ, אֲבָל הֵם אֵינָם מוֹדִים בּוֹ, הֲרֵי אֵלּוּ מֻתָּרִים לָשֵׂאת וְלָתֵת עִמָּהֶםI suggest you study Avoda Zara to get acquainted that not all acts and holidays are the same.
Gaon, your giving over your own dreikup deios differentiating between Halloween and Christmas. Nothing in Avoda Zora or the Rambam differentiate between Halloween and Christmas. These so-called halachic differences between Halloween and Christmas you are describing are boich svaras only imagined and interpreted by Mr. Gaon and no one else.
Joseph,
These so-called halachic differences between Halloween and Christmas you are describing are those only imagined ”
Please describe the following scenario:
“אֵין יוֹם הֶחָג אָסוּר אֶלָּא לָעוֹבְדִים בּוֹ בִּלְבַד, אֲבָל הָעוֹבְדֵי כּוֹכָבִים שֶׁשְּׂמֵחִים בּוֹ וְאוֹכְלִים וְשׁוֹתִים וּמְשַׁמְּרִים אוֹתוֹ מִפְּנֵי מִנְהָג”According to Rav HoPosek Joseph anything falls within the same category…
That applies no differently between Halloween and Christmas. You are inventing imaginary distinctions on how the goyim practice these holidays.
First of all, there are many examples of poskim who lived (and died) under Christian rule stretching their imaginations to soften the harshness with which we are supposed to treat Avoda Zuruh. Nu, they had to live.
Second, whether or not a Jew is permitted to give candy seems almost irrelevant to me. As far as I am concerned, whether or not I am permitted to do it, I would rather not and I would rather not have to prove my humanness by participating in a holiday that through and through is Sheketz.
Finally, I would love to hear what a non-American possek will have to say about this as I tend to view the opinions from E”Y as not being tainted by the shmutz of golus. What would R’ Chaim say?
“What would R’ Chaim say?”
He would probably say. Why dont you ask the poskim in america.
“Finally, I would love to hear what a non-American possek will have to say about this as I tend to view the opinions from E”Y as not being tainted by the shmutz of golus. What would R’ Chaim say?”
Assuming he is familiar with the Remah. He would say it is muttar.
Though admittedly the Remah was “tainted by the shmutz of golus” so I guess, who cares what he held?” whether or not a Jew is permitted to give candy seems almost irrelevant to me.”
Then you are on the wrong thread. since that is the entire discussion at hand.
and Halacha should never be “irrelevant” Not ever.Educate yourselves (this is not mine):
Idolatry consists of endless rituals associated with superstitions, magic and mythical beliefs. “Death” was always considered the most terrifying mystery, and it triggered extreme anxiety and agitation. Dead people, their invisible spirits, were often the object of fear, reverence and especially of worship. Halloween is not an exception. “All-hallow-even” celebrates the “day of all (dead) saints”.
The ancient Celts celebrated Halloween at the end of summer, because they believed that the evil spirits and the souls of the dead were visiting the world of the living at that time. The pagans considered the dead more or less as Hollywood considers the “zombies”: bad and dangerous. The dead returned to this world angry, vengeful and with the desire to recruit new members. The pumpkins, which resembled the disfigured faces of the dead, were carved to welcome them and appease their spirits. Great bonfires were also lit to illuminate and thus help the dead finding their way into the world of the living. Food, particularly sweets, was left outside the doors to feed the ghosts. All these favors for the dead were made out of self interest: people believed that those who did help the spirits of the dead would not be disturbed by them (“If I pacify them, they will not take me with them”).
Cats were especially important on Halloween because people believed that cats could smell and warn about the presence of invisible bad spirits. However, black cats were avoided (or killed) because witches or evil spirits reincarnated in black cats.
The devil appeared on Halloween night from hell itself. The Druids, the Celtic priests, wore masks to make the dead believe that they were one of them. These priests knocked on the doors to claim human sacrifices for the devil, or to satisfy the vengeful spirits. And if one did not want to become a human sacrifice, at least, had to appease the evil spirits with sweets.When ehrlich yidden insist that you SHOULD give out candies then this is a truly a curse.
I shudder at the thought that Moshe Rabbienu imagined eirlich yidden handing out candies on Halloween when he warned:
וֶהֱפִֽיצְךָ֤ יְהוָה֙ בְּכָל־הָ֣עַמִּ֔ים מִקְצֵ֥ה הָאָ֖רֶץ וְעַד־קְצֵ֣ה הָאָ֑רֶץ וְעָבַ֨דְתָּ שָּׁ֜ם אֱלֹהִ֣ים אֲחֵרִ֗ים אֲשֶׁ֧ר לֹא־יָדַ֛עְתָּ אַתָּ֥ה וַאֲבֹתֶ֖יךָ עֵ֥ץ וָאָֽבֶן׃
(See, Rashi’s question there and Alshick there and Abarbanel on Devarim 4:25:2)
Joseph,
Giving candies on Halloween is much worse than giving gifts on Christmas as giving Christmas gifts is prohibited only derabanan because of the oved avoda zara may thank his maker (see, Moed Kuttun 9b) while giving candies on Halloween is actually participating in the ritual of avoda zara which is tantamount r”l to Avoduso Darko Bekakh. See Sanhedrin 63a
Welcom to wikiworld.
“Educate yourselves (this is not mine):”
Yet another person who knows how to use the google search bar. I’m impressed with the level of sophistication found on this site.
ubiq: you missed my point. Whether it is Muttar is almost irrelevant. There are two dozen “stretching your imagination” reasons it is muttar. What concerns me more is that we are living the curse.
“Assuming he is familiar with the Remah. He would say it is muttar.”
Yes, this how the typical Rav Chaim quote goes these days; he will just say “muttar” . And the one Am H’aaretz will have another “psak of Rav Chaim”! in his sefer…
Besalel,
I will repeat again, the concept is nothing less than the following Shu”A (Note – the Beis Yosef lived in Tzefat EY)“אֵין יוֹם הֶחָג אָסוּר אֶלָּא לָעוֹבְדִים בּוֹ בִּלְבַד, אֲבָל הָעוֹבְדֵי כּוֹכָבִים שֶׁשְּׂמֵחִים בּוֹ וְאוֹכְלִים וְשׁוֹתִים וּמְשַׁמְּרִים אוֹתוֹ מִפְּנֵי מִנְהָג”
There is a saying that “too much information leads to misinformation”!
You are getting carried away and with all the Wiki info confusion. As far as Halacha is concerned, you need to know why and where the ones in concern are celebrating. Ask the random Joe Doe down your block and he will tell you, he has no idea what you are quoting, he is not even religious nor did he ever hear or believe of any of these copy/paste Wiki info you and Joseph keep on repeating. Ghosts, devils, spirits are just kids tales to the typical american.
Now Joseph will go and say x-mas is the same. No its not the same – the typical Joe definitely associates it with Christ….
Why does the random Joe Doe determine the halacha? Some Joe Doe’s celebrate Halloween as a religious celebration and some celebrate it as a secular celebration. Same with Christmas. Some only celebrate Christmas as a purely secular holiday and others as a religious one.
Slonim,
its not me its the SHu”A:
“אֵין יוֹם הֶחָג אָסוּר אֶלָּא לָעוֹבְדִים בּוֹ בִּלְבַד, אֲבָל הָעוֹבְדֵי כּוֹכָבִים שֶׁשְּׂמֵחִים בּוֹ וְאוֹכְלִים וְשׁוֹתִים וּמְשַׁמְּרִים אוֹתוֹ מִפְּנֵי מִנְהָג”The Shu”A is talking about your local peasant, not your educated Wiki reader…
If you have a different understanding please explain.Christmas is definitely a religious Holiday as per anyone. Simpy ask why many offended liberals are opposed to greeting “merry xmas” and just greet “Happy Holidays”. Did you ever hear anyone offended by a “Happy Halloween”?
gaon – that’s what I meant. Some peasents celebrate Halloween as a religious celebration. And about Christmas, irreligious and non-Christians celebrate it as non-religious holiday.
Gaon,
I am afraid you may be confusing two different issues. The first, which is what the S”A you cite is discussing, is giving gifts to a Nochri around Yom Eidum.
A totally different issue is participating in an act of A”Z when that act is part of the way of the worship. With the issue at hand here, the problem is that giving the sweets is part of the act of the A”Z and so the section of the S”A you cite is not relevant. Even if there are many nochrim who no longer understand why they do the specific act of A”Z that they do, it is still prohibited.
Imagine, if you will, that people still performed Peor to Baal but most of them did it today because it was a fun thing to do and not because they believed Baal was a deity. That is the issue – not stam gifting within three days of Yom Eidam.
the xtians in the us are not celebrating a day of the dead. the church allowed the retention of giving out sweets this day of the year, on its own all hallows day as a means to make their holidays palatable to the masses. same reason the church allowed the masses throughout the ages to plunder, rape and pillage around the 25th of december. now, even non xtians, including moslems, hinus and atheists have adopted the tradition of shnorring for candy and mischief making for its own secular holiday called halloween.
if you feel it is assur, ignore the dorrbell.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.